cluster - battery set up?

so i tried out a cluster rocket i built today and it appears my set up was no good.


i had 1 C11 with 4 mini boosters... wired the circuit in parallel to the engines coming off the two wires from the ignition switch. i'm fairly certain i set that up appropriately.


but i'm not sure i'm using the right stuff because when i hit the switch nothing happened... checked the hook up and wires and everything looked good..... the ignition uses a little 9 volt duracell battery. and my clamps had a 3 amp max.


so i'm thinking maybe this wasn't enough juice... any ideas on what i should use instead?

thanks

9V not near enough power. You need to use a 12V car battery at least, preferably with a relay setup so its at the pad...

...just search the forum. All the answers and more are here. Do research first to prevent issues at the pad

what is a relay set up?

As I said, search...there's more than I can provide, but here's a great example:

https://bpasa.com/Cluster-box.htm

You're basically putting a 12v battery (or more powerful, as in the link) at the pad to provide direct power to your igniters, significantly reducing the risk of loosing current traveling thru long lead wires. The relay is basically a switch, initiated by your standard controller, that pumps the power of the big battery into your igniters. But really, all you need is a 12v battery for the launch you attempted. That will fire 5 Estes or Quest igniters just fine. Wire them in parallel and connect them to lead wires that have alligator clips on one end and bare wires on the other. Touch the bare wires to the positive and negative terminals on the battery and boom...launch.

808rocketman said:

so i tried out a cluster rocket i built today and it appears my set up was no good.


i had 1 C11 with 4 mini boosters... wired the circuit in parallel to the engines coming off the two wires from the ignition switch. i'm fairly certain i set that up appropriately.


but i'm not sure i'm using the right stuff because when i hit the switch nothing happened... checked the hook up and wires and everything looked good..... the ignition uses a little 9 volt duracell battery. and my clamps had a 3 amp max.


so i'm thinking maybe this wasn't enough juice... any ideas on what i should use instead?

thanks

Click to expand...

The Club nicknamed me "mrcluster" years ago, I've been happily flying 2 to 12 BP motor clusters for decades. Since discovering the Relay ignition system My all motor ignition reliablilty is very close to 100%.

Let me say this again "The ONLY reliable way to ignite multi motor clusters is with a 12v High amp/hr Battery and relay ignition system". This System moves the battery from the controller side to the Launch Pad side of the circuit.

PLease visit www.narhams.org in the library section down load Tech-Tip 006 "Clustering BP Motors" This will give you an Complete and details explaination of how and why Relay igntion should be used. It also has schemetics and parts lists for building your own "Range-Box Relay" or a 40amp/contact HD relay system.

It is also Most important that each and every igniter used in your clusters be Checked for continuity before and after being inserted in the motors and one last time with the all up model is on the pad. Also do not use motor Plugs or the soft plastic tubes to retain the igniter in the motor instead use the old FPwadding ball and tape method. (more details in the tech-tip).

below I'll give you a couple of the things you also find in the Tech-Tip.
If you have additional questions please be sure to ask. Hope this helps.



View attachment Cluster Wiring Diagrams-2c_Dwg(Revised)_09-17-12.pdf

View attachment RangeBox Relay-a2c_Rev Drawing & Wiring_01-31-96 Rev.06-23-10.pdf

If u use a high amp battery will it be a problem if the alligator clamps I have max out at 3 amps?

marcusSRG said:

As I said, search...there's more than I can provide, but here's a great example:

https://bpasa.com/Cluster-box.htm

You're basically putting a 12v battery (or more powerful, as in the link) at the pad to provide direct power to your igniters, significantly reducing the risk of loosing current traveling thru long lead wires. The relay is basically a switch, initiated by your standard controller, that pumps the power of the big battery into your igniters. But really, all you need is a 12v battery for the launch you attempted. That will fire 5 Estes or Quest igniters just fine. Wire them in parallel and connect them to lead wires that have alligator clips on one end and bare wires on the other. Touch the bare wires to the positive and negative terminals on the battery and boom...launch.

Click to expand...

808rocketman said:

If u use a high amp battery will it be a problem if the alligator clamps I have max out at 3 amps?

Click to expand...

Not at all! to be honest the general rule of thumb for cluster ignition of Estes Solar igniters is 2amps per igniter. So if your using 4 igniters your battery should be able to deliver a mininum of 8amps to the igniters, 5 igniters 10amps and so on. I generally tell Newbies to Clustering to buy the Largest cold crank amp wet ot Gel cell batttery they can afford. for cluster work I like to use at least a 26amp/hr Gel-cell. but a hobbico 7amp/hr gel-cell will handle 4 motor clusteres just fine.

808rocketman said:

If u use a high amp battery will it be a problem if the alligator clamps I have max out at 3 amps?

Click to expand...

Not really sure but I don't think so... I didn't know they could be maxed out. Never heard of that. Alligator clips are actually not the ideal clip to use. Micro clips (see below) are what you should use. They don't have the teeth on them and I know these work fine with a 12V or similar high output batteries.



Listen to Micromeister!!!

>so i'm thinking maybe this wasn't enough juice... any ideas on what i should use instead?

Sounds like you just need a little more power. You'll get lots of good advice here on several options but per your set up description, you're looking for the simplest, least expensive set up possible. For clusters you want a strong power source. Get a gel pack or a car battery. How long are your leads, 15-20 feet? You won't need a relay. I use a car battery to power 5 igniters up to 100 feet with no problem all the time.

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Besides a bigger battery, you probably want to go with the Quest Q2G2 igniters instead of the Estes ones. They take a LOT less current, so they will be much more reliable with a cluster. You don't want to have one (or more) igniters not going off because of marginal current... you might power-arc into the ground coming off the rod.

I only have experience with one, scratch built, triple clustered rocket, but this has worked well for me on 24 mm Estes black powder motors. I take the individual igniters (starters for the P.C. crowd) and individually solder stranded wire extension leads to each factory lead. I then use a small piece of electrical tape to insure that the factory leads cannot short. I then do a continuity test on each igniter. Assuming that all igniters check out OK, I then form their extension leads into "twisted pairs". Finally, I pair and solder these twisted leads in parallel forming a flexible clip whip. This has the advantage of creating a large connection point for the jagged teeth of the alligator clips at DARS launches, and the stranded wire allows for some flexibility when one igniter most certainly ignites before another.

I also insert the igniters some time before a launch so that I don't have to fiddle with the ever present wind and other distractions in the field, and I always use the Estes retainer plugs. On my private launches I hook up my homemade launch controller (per G. Harry Stine's handbook) to my 12 volt truck battery (or sometimes a 12 volt 7 amp compact lead acid battery) and feed the launch pad with a 100 foot, 16 gauge extension cord. Since I started doing this I have not had an engine/motor failure...knock on wood.

Want to see pictures? Of course you do!

My homebrew launch controller uses 8 D-cell batteries for 12V. Clusters go off without a hitch, although I use the Q2G2 igniters for clustering.

808rocketman said:

If u use a high amp battery will it be a problem if the alligator clamps I have max out at 3 amps?

Click to expand...

Probably not. The 3A rating is probably a continuous rating. Compared to continuous duty cycle, the launcher will be conducting that current for a relatively little amount of time, and the clips should be OK.

You would have to check the datasheet on the clips to be sure (I wouldn't. I would just launch and replace them with better clips if they melt, which they probably wont.)

Here is my conversion of the standard Estes launch controller into something that will handle any reasonable cluster. No relay involved, but it uses much thicker wire, and a car jumpstart battery pack for power. And a low power LED so as not to fire Quest Q2G2 ignitors on continuity check.

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...s-amp-Copperheads-and-such&highlight=clusters

Marc

As Marc mentioned converting most any Estes or Quest hand held controller is Not that difficult, I've been doing it for guys in our club for decades.

To be perfectly honest if and I say IF you have or use Q2g2 3" igniters 2, 3 & possibly 4 motor BP clusters can be pretty sucessfully launched from any standard Launch control system with a decent 7 to 26amp/hr Gel-Cell 12volt battery in warmer weather. with Leads of 16ga copper wire up to about 50feet long. It is super important to have a fully charged battery.

That said IF you are not using Q2g2 or other Low current igniters. The use of a Relay ignition system is turely required for "RELIABLE" 3 motor cluster and Up ignition. I've used this system and the connection wiring show in the earlier post to fly up to 12 BP motor clusters using standard or my own dipped igniters.

Flying Cluster models is not just shove igniters in motor and go, There are many important details that are involved to make for safe and sucessful cluster ignition.