Dual Deployment for Dummies?

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Kruegon

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I tried searching the forums. Apparently I don't know what exactly to search for. Is there a how to guide for first DD bays? I understand pretty much nothing yet. I've seen references to black powder and to cable cutter. I have no idea what that means. A guide on how it works and how to build it would be awesome.
 
you can start here, This will give you the idea of how it goes together.
There are a few video's in the series on Electronics-bays, Avionics-bays,
[video=youtube;WYZ6jTp1qZY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYZ6jTp1qZY[/video]
 
The big concept is -
Go aerodynamically unstable at apogee
Deploy a nice big parachute before hitting ground
Electronics and logic make this possible

From there, tons of options and possibilities remain. The typical setup in bigger rockets is to have a coupler between main tube and payload that houses all the electronics, shear pins to hold it onto body tubes until charges fire, use a small parachute out the body tube at apogee, and big one goes up in payload for deployment at 500 or 800 feet. The coupler becomes a third airframe component known as an avionics bay, and everything inside is dedicated to how and when the other components are blown off via black powder charge.

Another common possibility, especially with medium sized rockets and new builders, is to let the motor charge do the first step, let the parachute hang out but bundled up, and use electronics to fully release it. Another advantage of this technique is that you can modify any kit with a payload bay for this, in other words you do not need significant changes to have multiple separation points. You could also have a small parachute or even a streamer deployed alongside the bundled parachute. A cable cutter is a simple device to sever a zip tie or otherwise release something to allow the main parachute to fully deploy. The electronics go directly into the payload bay, and a lead is run out to the cable cutter. No dedicated avionics bay is needed.

Thousands of combinations of these ideas are possible. Share what you try and how well each works!
 
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I tried searching the forums. Apparently I don't know what exactly to search for. Is there a how to guide for first DD bays? I understand pretty much nothing yet. I've seen references to black powder and to cable cutter. I have no idea what that means. A guide on how it works and how to build it would be awesome.
Are you flying Mid Power? If so the Aerotech Mirage is a good rocket for DD mods. It comes as a kit designed for dual chute recovery but with single ejection. Easily modified for dual recovery. You can buy a fabricated bay or scratch build yourself one. You do need to figure out what type of electronics you prefer. Timer based or barometric sensor activated. The size and needs of the electronics will give you some more insight on how to prepare your bay. It needs to be sealed away from the gases of ejection on both ends yet serviceable. Attaching the coupler/bay to the airframe with screws. Typically 3 separation points-2 for deployments and one for service of the electronics (the bay area held together with screws ) Pick up some good DD electronics and build your bay around it.
I hope this helps. Im having some great flights with my modified Mirage.DD
 
Highly recommend Modern High Power Rocketry 2 by Canepa. Everything you need to know is in there.

This is great advice. The book is only ~$40. Read it from cover to cover and you'll have all the basic knowledge you need for such things as DD and such. Basically, it's HPR for Dummies.
 
Well, I now have 3 mid power rockets in design. One will be motor eject at apogee with altimeter charge at @700'. Haven't settled on the design yet. The second will be motor eject at apogee with cable cutter at @800'. This will be an upscaled estes #2162 big daddy. The last will be DD with altimeter at apogee via baro and main event at @1000' via baro. This will be an upscaled estes }3217 Vagabond.

I may do the first as an upscaled estes #1423 vagabond

I think I've settled on the Perfectflite StratologgerCF for my altimeter. Coupler with light ply bulkheads. Copper caps for charge cups and quest e-match for charges. Now I just need to calculate chute sizes and balance. I've got roughly 6 months for the builds. My plan is to get my L1 cert, then spend the day with the 3 proving it wasn't luck lol.
 
Well, I now have 3 mid power rockets in design. One will be motor eject at apogee with altimeter charge at @700'. Haven't settled on the design yet. The second will be motor eject at apogee with cable cutter at @800'. This will be an upscaled estes #2162 big daddy. The last will be DD with altimeter at apogee via baro and main event at @1000' via baro. This will be an upscaled estes }3217 Vagabond.

I may do the first as an upscaled estes #1423 vagabond

I think I've settled on the Perfectflite StratologgerCF for my altimeter. Coupler with light ply bulkheads. Copper caps for charge cups and quest e-match for charges. Now I just need to calculate chute sizes and balance. I've got roughly 6 months for the builds. My plan is to get my L1 cert, then spend the day with the 3 proving it wasn't luck lol.

I'm wondering why you are deploying the main so high. I just use a Nomex wrapped main chute and deploy at 400 ft. When I got my Stratologger and could set it lower, I move the main deploy down to 300 ft. It has always worked just fine. If you are using a d-bag or some other type of deployment then just pushing the chute out, you may need to go higher, but 1000 ft seems really high for the main in a L1 sized rocket.
 
Well, our field is very large, but the wind has a tendency to shove the rockets off field. The @1000' deploy will most likely be 1 step smaller. A little faster decent. I was just approximating time for the smaller chute to have as much effect as possible. Many guys at our field deploy at 1000' and some higher. It's all just speculation right now. Once the rockets are constructed and painted, I'm going to mass override the weight in RockSim and have it optimize the chute. Then I can adjust as needed.
 
Well, our field is very large, but the wind has a tendency to shove the rockets off field. The @1000' deploy will most likely be 1 step smaller. A little faster decent. I was just approximating time for the smaller chute to have as much effect as possible. Many guys at our field deploy at 1000' and some higher. It's all just speculation right now. Once the rockets are constructed and painted, I'm going to mass override the weight in RockSim and have it optimize the chute. Then I can adjust as needed.

I'm not sure how Rocksim will help you decide the right altitude for main deployment. How you pack the chute, how it is deployed, and how far the rocket drops before it opens is what should determine at what altitude you want to deploy at. The way I fold and pack my chutes, they open very quickly so the main is open and everything is hanging below it in less them 50 feet. I have the main set a 300 feet, but could probably deploy at 100 feet and still have it under main well before landing. There are others that use cable cutters and due to various reasons, the rocket usually falls 200 - 300 ft after the cable cutter fires before the main opens. They use 700 ft as an opening altitude.

1000 ft might be a good starting point if you don't know how fast the main will deploy, but don't stick with that if a lower altitude will work.
 
Well I ere on the side of caution. I pop MPRs at 2000' all the time. So 1000' is a lot closer to the ground anyway. But I definitely want to see the chute deployment patterns before I lower the altitude on that one. Plus, it's a L1 cert. better to NOT crash it.
 
Get comfortable with it, then adjust as you see fit. If your altimeter gives you flight data, you could use that as a guide to deployment strategies ("Let's see, main charge went off here... and I slowed down to 17 FPS here, so my altitude dropped X before slowing down, so I could set it to XXX and still have a safe margin, if I could replicate everything else...")


Later!

--Coop
 
The stratologger is suppose to do that. I'm hoping to try a few MPR flights with DD prior to my L1 cert. I want to be REAL comfortable.
 
Well I ere on the side of caution. I pop MPRs at 2000' all the time. So 1000' is a lot closer to the ground anyway. But I definitely want to see the chute deployment patterns before I lower the altitude on that one. Plus, it's a L1 cert. better to NOT crash it.

1000' is really high. I pop the main on a 15 pound rocket at 600'.
 
I don't see 1000' as so high. Considering I pop MPRs at upwards of 3k+.
 
I think what Mark meant was that 1000' ft is really high for a main deploy compared to 300' or 400'. I flew dual deploy with the main at 150' earlier this year, although that was mostly a test of the deployment system. I'd definitely recommend 300' or lower for an L1 rocket, mostly since the goal of dual deploy is to minimize drift.
 
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Adept22 and RRC2+ come out of the box with the main set at 300. I've never changed it.
 
I've noticed that at BattlePark most fliers of L1 rockets with DD pop the main at 300 or 400 ft. The L2 birds are usually at 500 or 700 ft, although I do mine at 300 ft also. The only ones that use 1,000 are the L3 rockets.

There is nothing wrong with popping a main on a L1 at 1,000 ft. Just fly your field. If the field size and wind conditions say 1,000 ft is low enough, then its low enough.
 
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