Soyuz options.....

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Astro-Baby

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Just wondering....has anyone done a Soyuz thats large. I really want to have a large(ish) Soyuz but the Apogee kit requires F motots which are too hard to find in the UK which would force me to a reloadable and up the cost a lot.

I would have thought a Soyuz would make a good cluster based kit - has anyone ever seen that done or done it themselves ? Anyone got any ideas. I really want something a bit bigger than Apogees offering but not using motors larger than E sizes.
 
Why not scratch build one... (I've seen your work; you could do it)
 
Just wondering....has anyone done a Soyuz thats large. I really want to have a large(ish) Soyuz but the Apogee kit requires F motots which are too hard to find in the UK which would force me to a reloadable and up the cost a lot.

I would have thought a Soyuz would make a good cluster based kit - has anyone ever seen that done or done it themselves ? Anyone got any ideas. I really want something a bit bigger than Apogees offering but not using motors larger than E sizes.

Search for a thread on clustering the Cosmodrome Vostok - I'm sure he will chime in on this thread. You can easily convert the kit to a Soyuz, They are OOP but I have one stashed. It would be a bit easier than scratch building but still a huge challenge. You will need a cluster box and good igniters, or a super flash pan set up. Show those Colonial Massachusetts Rebels how it is done in the Home Country!
 
https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?17455-Soyuz-build-from-Cosmodrome-Vostok

Once it stops snowing for more than a few minutes at a time I will be able to get back to getting caught up. I have starting working on more Vostoks, but they are still a ways out. It's been so long since I've made them that I'm running into issues with things that need updating (mostly manufacturing procedures). In order to cluster this model on nothing larger than E's would be a major challenge.
 
Thanks guys, the cardstock kit might be the way to go with perhaps some stronger core tubes. Its a starting point for sure. I might also get a Dr Zooch kit to have a look at as a kind of prototype just to see how the final thing goes together.

It look as if the cardstock kit might fly off ok on a single E which would be a bonus but I might still go for a cluster based system. I need to work on something and i am not ready to bash my head against a wall on some of the other projects.

A complete scratch might be beyond me. The scratches I have done so far are relatively straight forward but a Soyuz has a lot of complex shapes involved in it, those boosters look like a bit of a challenge for sure.

As go cluster I have a controller which could handle a cluster launch easily....i would just need to make up some clips/flyleads for the motors. My battery system would easily provide enough wham to light up a fair few igniters.
 
Thanks guys, the cardstock kit might be the way to go with perhaps some stronger core tubes. Its a starting point for sure. I might also get a Dr Zooch kit to have a look at as a kind of prototype just to see how the final thing goes together.

It look as if the cardstock kit might fly off ok on a single E which would be a bonus but I might still go for a cluster based system. I need to work on something and i am not ready to bash my head against a wall on some of the other projects.

A complete scratch might be beyond me. The scratches I have done so far are relatively straight forward but a Soyuz has a lot of complex shapes involved in it, those boosters look like a bit of a challenge for sure.

As go cluster I have a controller which could handle a cluster launch easily....i would just need to make up some clips/flyleads for the motors. My battery system would easily provide enough wham to light up a fair few igniters.

That's a good idea... build the Zooch kit and it'll give you some ideas on how to scale the kit up with your own scratch build if you so desire... Same thing with the paper modeling kit (and the two have a lot in common).

Anyway, it's something to think about... good luck!
OL JR :)
 
Hey Astro,

That may be a wise decision to buy a kit first and get familiar with the geometry before attempting a scratch build...

What ever you decide, good luck with it...

Kid
 
A clustered Black Powder powered model would be nice.

Careful though, as it will be harder to make fly stably. The extra mass of multiple BP engines in the back will require a decent amount of noseweight. If you are adapting a kit, find out where the CG should be when it flies on just a single engine, then be sure you add enough noseweight to keep theCG no more rearward than that (I'd even make it a little extra stable with a bit more noseweight to account for slight thrust mismatches).

Actually, if you do not know where a specific kit's CG should be, and you cannot find someone else with the same kit to tel lyou where theirs balances, but can find the CG of a competing kit..... you can use that CG as a reference, just re-scale the CG location if it is a different scale. But that DOES assume (a big dangerous assumption if not verified) that both kits would be of the same accuracy as far as aerodynamic stability (Center of Pressure) is concerned. Some "scale" kits sometimes play scale accuracy of outline and fin size pretty loosely, occasionally bordering on the cartoonish.

For example on the scaled CG issue, I know that for a Little Joe-II, the CG needs to be ahead of the "N" of the "UNITED STATES" lettering on the main body, no matter whether 1/100 scale or 1/1 scale. But that assumes that the model is accurate enough aerodynamically, and that the lettering is applied at the correct scale location. How do I know it is NOT likely to be stable if the CG is behind the "N"? Flew one that way.... ONCE, and learned the hard way. Never had an unstable flight with the CG in front of the "N".

- George Gassaway
 
Well yesterday I had some time to look at the cardstock model and I think I can say I wont be going that route - it looks hellish complicated and there's next to no instructions with it. I sat down with the print outs and struggled to see where some bits went. Also my paper rolling skills arent that good. Good enough to make the odd shroud or booster cone but I really doubt I could pull that Soyuz cardstock thing together and have it look anything much like a Soyuz at the end.

As I looked over it the questions just piled up.....
What glue to use to be strong enough but not wrinkle the paper ?
Would the crazy tiny connection points on the boosters be strong enough for the thing not to tear itself apart with a cluster BP ?
How would the motor tubes in the boosters be supported at their front end ?
How to get lots of nose weight into such a fragile structure ?
What are some of the parts for ? I couldn't see from the pics where some stuff was supposed to go.

How to adapt it for strength ? It seemed I would be practically making a scratch model but from a potentially bad base. The cardstock plans are extremely good and all credit to its designer for taking it on but it looks way too complicated for me and would need way too much adapting.

All things considered I decided to forget this one. It would be better to make my own mistakes on this than follow the cardstock thing and invest a ton of time on something that I lack faith in from the off. I may use the cardstock kit for scaling for a scratch build of my own if no other options come to mind.

A thought occurred to me as well. The Apogee Soyuz IS the Noris kit with some extras and Noris would have to make this work with something no larger than a D because thats all the German law allows I seem to recall being told on here so it might be the Apogee kits might work on a D or might be adaptable to use a cluster and I would have more confidence going that way than trying to assemble the cardstock kit.

I may revisit the cardstock thing but the last time I tried cardstock modelling the designer had produced a beautiful model and what I had at the end of the process was something that more closely resembled a 5 year olds junk modelling class :)
 
Well yesterday I had some time to look at the cardstock model and I think I can say I wont be going that route - it looks hellish complicated and there's next to no instructions with it. I sat down with the print outs and struggled to see where some bits went. Also my paper rolling skills arent that good. Good enough to make the odd shroud or booster cone but I really doubt I could pull that Soyuz cardstock thing together and have it look anything much like a Soyuz at the end.

As I looked over it the questions just piled up.....
What glue to use to be strong enough but not wrinkle the paper ?
Would the crazy tiny connection points on the boosters be strong enough for the thing not to tear itself apart with a cluster BP ?
How would the motor tubes in the boosters be supported at their front end ?
How to get lots of nose weight into such a fragile structure ?
What are some of the parts for ? I couldn't see from the pics where some stuff was supposed to go.

How to adapt it for strength ? It seemed I would be practically making a scratch model but from a potentially bad base. The cardstock plans are extremely good and all credit to its designer for taking it on but it looks way too complicated for me and would need way too much adapting.

All things considered I decided to forget this one. It would be better to make my own mistakes on this than follow the cardstock thing and invest a ton of time on something that I lack faith in from the off. I may use the cardstock kit for scaling for a scratch build of my own if no other options come to mind.

A thought occurred to me as well. The Apogee Soyuz IS the Noris kit with some extras and Noris would have to make this work with something no larger than a D because thats all the German law allows I seem to recall being told on here so it might be the Apogee kits might work on a D or might be adaptable to use a cluster and I would have more confidence going that way than trying to assemble the cardstock kit.

I may revisit the cardstock thing but the last time I tried cardstock modelling the designer had produced a beautiful model and what I had at the end of the process was something that more closely resembled a 5 year olds junk modelling class :)

Thanks for the heads up guys and some really beautiful builds in there from people who really know what they are doing as evidenced from their amazing builds of the cardstock kit.
 
Hi Astro....I think the Zooch Soyuz might be a good option for you....its inexpensive and it will give a feel for the bigger builds...I am attaching a couple pics of my Zooch Soyuz and his Vostok...they are fun kits and with a little bit of work you can add a fair amount of detail to them000_0643a.jpg!

000_0592a.jpg000_0559a.jpg000_0653a.jpg
 
Thought you Soyuz fans might like this - I have been cruising the web looking for ideas today on and off.

[video=youtube;syqW2kNgLEk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syqW2kNgLEk[/video]
 
NJ - yes I have thought about that but they are quite small and I am not great with fiddly things. I tried doing a half size Rhine Maiden last year and it was a disaster. I am ok rolling stuff (up to a point) but it has to be quite large or else I am too hamfisted at it. Big blunt fingers without much sensation in them....come to that there's little sensation in my brain either :) But seriously I might give a Dr Zooch a go and see and will probably attempt the cardstock rocket as well just on the off chance that it works and I will probably learn much from it.
 
Also found this one where the R7 element looks like it has some kind of graphics/murals painted onto it......cute !

[video=youtube;NYv89dC7rn0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYv89dC7rn0[/video]
 
iTS ACTUALLY THE LOGO FOR THE sOCHI oLYMPICS AND ITS tma 11M - WHOOPS - BIT TIRED
 
The Noris kit will need to have strakes like the Zooch kit to glue the boosters on. All kinds of ways you can do this depending on how many and what type of motors used around the 24mm core. One D12 3 or 5 with four C6 0's (with a few unspeakable modifications) for a nice, five motor German wonder machine. Long Quest igniters will be fine. Easy Peasy. But those Noris kits have VACUFORM!:y: The kit directions are questionable!:y: You have to trim the inter stage strut decal with an Xacto knife.:y: Enough to send most American kit buyers running in panic. The nose weight will pack that nosecone, all the motors must light. I am scaring myself just typing this!
 
There were several things I did with the Soyuz 1/48 scale paper model to make it flyable.

First, like the Proton and N-1, I built it around a BT-60 core. All 3 models had payload bays to be able to add weight to if needed. The big thing is that the majority of the structural loads were on the BT-60 tubes.

Secondly, for the Soyuz, I ran 1/4 dowels on the upper and lower sides that run through the BT-60 tubes...forming a cross inside the BT-60 tube. You might be able to see the dowels in the pics. I mounted the side boosters to those dowels. Again, for robustness, so most of the loads are on the BT-60 body tubes.

What I might recommend is build a 'boilerplate model' first...just the basic big tubes with no 'fiddly bits'. Don't worry about trying to make it look pretty...get it built and flown first to tweak your own techniques.

And don't start with the N-1! That was my first foray...not a great way to start cardstocks!

FC
 
There's also a design for a 1:100 "simplified Vostok" by Peter Alway--don't have the URL handy--which you might look at for inspiration.
 
Ta cookie.....

I had a go at a rough of the cardstock Soyuz today and the results were awful. The boosters were a nightmare and I really dont think my paper rolling skills are up to it. I will carry on practising and see where I go but I think the cardstock rocketry lark is not really going to work for me - I lack finesse for it I think. I may use the cardstock plans to base a scratch on using the same or similar dimensioning. With a five cluster boost I can afford to build a bit heavier. The real headache has been the pointy tops of the boosters and I am thinking now of having a solid tube with a wooden pointy top / nosecone and just make up the booster cones shape as a shroud to a more solid core.

Once I get the design right I will start a build thread on it for any other fans of Soviet space ships :)
 
One step closer to madness and a 5 'D' cluster Soyuz :)

Nahh, you won't hit madness till you go four C11's, E9 in center, and arrange for the strap-ons to sep at C11 burnout and deploy their own chutes, as the core flies stably the rest of the way on the E9.

And... THEN the C6 in the second stage ignites....... :)

- George Gassaway

stock-vector-crazy-cartoon-guy-in-a-straight-jacket-vector-illustration-with-simple-gradients-all-in-a-single-106320659.jpg
 
One step closer to madness and a 5 'D' cluster Soyuz :)
That's not madness. Madness is when you remember that the real Soyuz has five engines in each booster and the sustainer, and try for a 25-motor cluster. :lol:

I haven't seen this done for a scale model but I've seen it done on someone else's scratch-built rocket, though admittedly that only had four motors in each of the sustainer and four boosters, so a total of 20. Quickmatch is legal in the UK without a licence and the guy who built that monster is an expert in its use. We reckoned the quickmatch needed to ignite his cluster probably had as much total impulse as at least one of the motors. :D
 
Well I have contemplated doing it with 4 'C's in the core and four 'C's in each of the boosters but reliable ignition would be a nightmare and the cost per launch would would be prohibitive for me plus its just more aggro and just like the Russians my space budget is strapped right now :)

I am currently building a prototype based on the card stock rocket dimensioning but made from harder materials (well as hard as cardboard can be :) ) and am planning on a 5x 'D' config which would be easily ignitable and reliable I reckon. So far I only have a single booster assembled for working out some mods.

The weakness as far as I can see is the booster to core connections so I am planning on having a concealed strut that runs cruciform style right through the core and into the boosters. The core and the booster will have an internal tube running almost their entire length so the whole structure should be quite rigid. My rough prototyping suggests even with heavyweight materials she will still be quite a light bird and 5 x D motors should get her off the pad to a respectable altitude.

I did consider buying the apogee kit and modifying it but decided a scratch would be more fun. It wont be exact scale as I will be using off the shelf bits.

Lords knows why a Soyuz scratch build excited my rocket mojo when I have Sea Dart, Scmetterling, Rhieintochter 2, Wasserfall and Enzian to get on with but it does. At least part of it was the depression that set in with having so much balsa to cut out for the improved Rhientochter - When you stare at the balse the balsa also stares back at you :) and at least a Soyuz doesn't need a mountain of balsa cut and shaped. Its mostly transition cones and tubing.
 
That's not madness. Madness is when you remember that the real Soyuz has five engines in each booster and the sustainer, and try for a 25-motor cluster. :lol:

R-7 (Vostok, Soyuz , etc) has four main nozzles in each booster and core, plus two verniers in each booster and four verniers in the core.
 
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