5 Cluster Ignition

Hi

I plan to light 5x E-12's on the bottom of a Saturn 5 . Flash in the pan ignition has been recommended but I am afraid of all the sot ruining the outside of my rocket. I have a 5 cable hook up , is there a reliable igniter that will work?

Thanks
Paul

Q2G2s are the go too igniter for BlackPowder motors, I have used Estes Solar igniters with clip whips many times without a failure on cluster motors, make sure and thoroughly test your igniters and connections prior to installation in the motor to verify they are good if you use Solar igniters. Q2G2 are just extra insurance, also make sure you are using a launch system that is 12volts (car battery, etc.).

Forget the 5 wire whip, use flashbulbs. Low current friendly. Pm me if you want more info.

I use Q2G2's for 7 motor BP clusters on a regular basis, no clip whip, and they work great. I don't recommend using the included straw for retention on larger nozzles (C11, D12, E9), as it goes in too far, and can crush the pyrogen. For these, I use the old fashioned ball of wadding.

There are several ways you can go, most have a favorite way and while igniters are important, the most important thing is the power source. You need a gel pack or car battery. I use standard Estes igniters and a clip whip with our car battery. Hundreds of large cluster launches, never had a problem. Clean leads, strong grip, strong power source.

Good luck and get some photos!

Verna
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Verna said:

I use standard Estes igniters and a clip whip with our car battery.

Click to expand...

I use standard Estes igniters with extensions so I don't have to bother with a clip whip. The power source is what is important.

Hi

Thanks for all of yuor comments I 'll have to google the Q2G2's and see if they are available in Canada. As for the power source no worries I'll be using the club launch system.

Thanks again

BobH48 said:

I use standard Estes igniters with extensions so I don't have to bother with a clip whip. The power source is what is important.

Click to expand...

+1. I have used this mechanism for 7-engine clusters.

Flash bulbs work!
If you can still find them as; they haven't been made for quite some time.


JD

Flashbulbs....how quaint!

[video=youtube;v9kTVZiJ3Uc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9kTVZiJ3Uc[/video]

JDcluster said:

Flash bulbs work!
If you can still find them as; they haven't been made for quite some time.


JD

Click to expand...

I have no opinion or experience on this topic however I considered the same build a while back and was inspired by the video in the link below; in which the flyer used the flash in the pan method. You can see how he mitigated the flash by using a cover with what appear to be spent motors to direct the flash, also likely contained some BP. From what I can tell he built a box that he could lower over a standard 1/4" launch rod, which contained the BP and had ignition wires coming up through the bottom. I don't imagine it would be hard to build and you may be able to reach out to him, although I believe he is located in Spain or Italy...he has several videos and does nice work.

[video=youtube;syqW2kNgLEk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syqW2kNgLEk[/video]

mpitfield said:

I have no opinion or experience on this topic however I considered the same build a while back and was inspired by the video in the link below; in which the flyer used the flash in the pan method. You can see how he mitigated the flash by using a cover with what appear to be spent motors to direct the flash, also likely contained some BP. From what I can tell he built a box that he could lower over a standard 1/4" launch rod, which contained the BP and had ignition wires coming up through the bottom. I don't imagine it would be hard to build and you may be able to reach out to him, although I believe he is located in Spain or Italy...he has several videos and does nice work.

[video=youtube;syqW2kNgLEk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syqW2kNgLEk[/video]

Click to expand...

That was a really cool video. The cluster ignition seemed to work really well. I loved the way the staging worked and how the boosters fell away.

They Call me Mrcluster! Been flying 2 to 12 BP motor clusters for decades. with over 2200 clustered motor models flown with more then 5000 motors logged I have only had 13 unlit single motors in all. 4 of which were intential tests flights with no igniter in one motor. The remainder were before I discovered Relay Ignition systems and prior to testing all Igniters Before and After inserting.

All that to say For reliable BP Cluster motor ignition there are several steps that should be followed:

First and for most: You MUST test each and every igniter continuity before and after installation in the motors and one last time on the pad.
Can't tell you how many Bad out of the package iginters i've found over the years.

2nd: use a RELAY Ignition system: This moves the power source from the Controller side to the Launch Pad using as Large and heavy diameter cable (Battery Cable wire is Great). Then maximum of 18" of 16TFF Stranded copper wire for the clips. Use 1-1/8" smooth jaw Alligator clips Not standard alligator clips. Smooth Jaw have a much better contact area.

3rd: Use as Large capacitiy 12V (minimum 26Amp/hr) High Amp/hr battery as you can for any cluster over 3motors.

Bare in mind: clip whips No matter how well made are ONLY an extension of the Power supply(Launch Control) system to which they are attached.

4th: Q2g2 igniters are extremely helpful for larger number BP motor clusters. Do not use the plastic tube "Plugs" provided. They pull out far to easily. Use the Old time FP wadding ball & tape igniter installation method (see Pic below)
Don't forget to use 1/4sheet of FPwadding on the forward end of each motor in your cluster to prevent Back Burns. This is an absolute must for clusters where all motor forward ends are exposed to the burnthur/ ejection charge from motors next to them.

If you'll visit www.narhams.org in the library section download Tech Tip-006 Clustering BP motors you'll find a treasure trove of info on All above plus schmetics, diagrams & Parts lists for building your own relay ignitions systems and how to wire up clusters for reliable ignition.
Hope all this info Helps you have as much fun with Bp Clusters as I've had

View attachment Cluster Wiring Diagrams-2c_Dwg(Revised)_09-17-12.pdf

I used the older (not for sale anymore) Estes igniters for testing flying my 5X B Cluster Altitude rocket for NARAM-56. Never did go to NARAM, but I had 100% success with my test flights with 4 B6-0 and 1 B6-6 motor combo. I did cherry-pick my igniters, picking ones that "looked good." I didn't test for igniter resistance, but did use a relay launch system to get plenty of current to the igniters. Wiring the 5-cluster with the Estes igniters was a pain because the leads are short. Perseverance furthered...

Just do a search...this question comes up so much. But everyone has provided excellent answers.

My pick would be Q2s, then ematches, then Estes solar igniters with extensions, then flash plan. No experience with flashbulbs but I know they work. Very old school. Clip whips can get too cumbersome and aren't the most ideal choice for many reasons. Checking resistance, using a relay and hand picking the igniters definitely ups your chances.

The cluster spider is another neat ignition device that I've never tried but would work well for this application:

https://meatballrocketry.com/pvc-spider/

EDIT: I missed that that Soyuz used a spider. They are referring to it as flash pan ignition, which it essentially is. Just a more controlled method.

I've lit clusters of up to 6 motors with Q2s and up to 11 (IIRC) with flash pans. Lots of success with solar igniters and ematches as well. I've also used a central composite to light a flash pan...cool and effective.

shreadvector said:

Flashbulbs....how quaint!

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Yeah... Whatever... They were great for rocketry; a lot better for the job than a lot of the stuff available today.

Funny ST video clip! Great movie.

Hi

Thanks again ,that spider design looks pretty cool and doable . I wonder if there was any room between the exhaust tubes and the rocket so the rocket wouldn't just be pushed up . I will order the Q2's as well and test some igniters.

Thanks all

While Q2 igniters are OK, they are almost identical to Estes igniters.

You really want Q2G2 igniters for ultra reliable cluster ignition.


Yes, Q2 is different than Q2G2.


Just like York is different than New York.

marcusSRG said:

Just do a search...this question comes up so much. But everyone has provided excellent answers.

My pick would be Q2s, then ematches, then Estes solar igniters with extensions, then flash plan. No experience with flashbulbs but I know they work. Very old school. Clip whips can get too cumbersome and aren't the most ideal choice for many reasons. Checking resistance, using a relay and hand picking the igniters definitely ups your chances.

The cluster spider is another neat ignition device that I've never tried but would work well for this application:

https://meatballrocketry.com/pvc-spider/

EDIT: I missed that that Soyuz used a spider. They are referring to it as flash pan ignition, which it essentially is. Just a more controlled method.

I've lit clusters of up to 6 motors with Q2s and up to 11 (IIRC) with flash pans. Lots of success with solar igniters and ematches as well. I've also used a central composite to light a flash pan...cool and effective.

Click to expand...

on my estes D & E motors after I put the igniters in I put a few grains of BP then the ball of wadding trick then a standard whip clip. the BP helps with a faster ignition