Loki Research 2015

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Will Loki Research be attending Mini Midwest Power?

No. I am not allowed to attend TQC/QCRS launches in the capacity of a vendor, nor is anyone else unless they are selling food or large fiberglassed styrofoam nose cones last I saw. Because of this, it is not worth my time to drive 6 hours to hand deliver a few items off site, and unfortunately I don't have the time or money any more to only fly rockets at rocket launches and just have fun like the rest of you. I spend all my time and money now trying to support the hobby by giving fliers more motor choices to choose from. I believe that is a benefit for the hobby as a whole. I also believe that is the same benefit any club would have by allowing any and all vendors to attend. If I do make it to a launch, it is to work/vend, and if I'm really lucky, I get to fly a rocket myself once a year, maybe.

If you would like to see me or anyone else vend at TQC/QCRS launches, you will need to re-program the hearts and minds of your fellow club members and explain to them how having more choices and more options is better for them as a club. The majority of club members have been consistently led to believe that one vendor will always be able to deliver to them everything they will ever want, and if they vote to allow anyone else to vend at club launches, that one vendor will up and decide not to support them at every launch as has been arranged for about 11 years now. That annual threat has kept everyone in line so far. As it stands now, anyone who has a rocketry product they want to sell there is required to sell it through the exclusive club vendor, giving them a dealers cut of their profit. (sounds like a racket to me) They will likely end up doing all the required work themselves in order to take home half of their profits. The other half is handed over to the exclusive vendor. That was my personal experience anyway, but maybe you can help turn the tide Mike. I hope you try. I really do.

One way would be to get on the clubs BOD. As a person with no ties to anything other than the club, you would be able to help the club make fair and impartial decisions on club matters without having conflicting interests in a company that could stand to profit from those same decisions. In other words, you would have no conflict of interest. Unfortunately, there are people who refuse to acknowledge and apply this concept of normal proper business practices.

Another way would be to fly more Loki motors at those launches. When others see how much they would like to fly those same loads, and how great it would be if they could pick them up at the launch once or twice a year, they will realize that they've been missing out big time. They might be convinced to vote no for the "Exclusive Club Vendor" deal the next time it comes up for a club vote.

Good luck.
 
I will soon be ordering my first Loki hardware and reloads. I am excited at being able to order hardware, and then actually getting it. Unlike brand AT that can't or won't supply hardware even after 6 months.
 
Ummmmm, I am not a member of that group but what makes you think Scott that the topic of exclusive vendor ever comes up for voting? Might just be an edict they're stuck following. Kurt
 
How does a club get stuck following and non regulated rule? Is it BLM land and they have the rule? One vendor seems odd.


TA
 
Ummmmm, I am not a member of that group but what makes you think Scott that the topic of exclusive vendor ever comes up for voting? Might just be an edict they're stuck following. Kurt

From what I've heard, it does come up for a vote annually.

How does a club get stuck following and non regulated rule? Is it BLM land and they have the rule? One vendor seems odd.


TA

They keep voting it in. What QCRS has done (and I am just an observer looking in from the outside) from what QCRS members have told me is they've essentially painted themselves into a corner. The agreement is that so long as the exclusive vendor sets up and runs the launches that vendor get's to remain exclusive. From what I have observed this has created a culture that relies heavily on said vendor to do all the heavy lifting and where the thought of giving up this arrangement is daunting.

Keep in mind, while I have talked to several QCRS members and they basically have told me this very thing I have never been to a QCRS launch or much less have ever been a QCRS member. I will say, looking at what they've done I have talked to our members and we have decided a long time ago we would NEVER make an arrangement like that and I think that's helped us immeasurably grow our relationships and pride in the club. Everyone has a part to play to make it all work seamlessly and somehow have a lot of fun in the process. We've never turned a vendor down.
 
Ooop my bad I see this line of questioning turning into a argument, and subsequently getting this thread locked. Please lets end this here.


I will soon be ordering my first Loki hardware and reloads. I am excited at being able to order hardware, and then actually getting it. Unlike brand AT that can't or won't supply hardware even after 6 months.

You will not be disappointed its great stuff, I fly Loki exclusively anymore save some MPR AT stuff.

TA
 
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Ooop my bad I see this line of questioning turning into a argument, and subsequently getting this tread locked. Please lets end this here.

There's no reason for an argument really. I'm just reiterating what's already been told to me personally and posted publicly:

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?43859-MWPX-Vendors&highlight=QCRS

Admittedly, I was a bit of an a$$ in that thread but at the time I was pretty fed up with getting questions about what was going on there and not getting any answers so I went with posting the question here.

-Dave
 
You will not be disappointed its great stuff, I fly Loki exclusively anymore save some MPR AT stuff.

While I am not exclusive to Loki (I'm an equal opportunity pyro whore) - I could not agree more. Loki is primo burn. One of the single all time best small field motors is the H144. I have not seen a much more versatile motor. Plus if you are a spark-junkie, the Spitfire loads will push all your buttons.
 
Scott any chance of making a conversion for AT 38mm RMS hardware to fly your reloads, AT was nice enough to inform everyone that the entire 38mm line is going RMS-EZ. Which for me means changing my hardware and reloads, which means LOKI.
 
Scott any chance of making a conversion for AT 38mm RMS hardware to fly your reloads, AT was nice enough to inform everyone that the entire 38mm line is going RMS-EZ. Which for me means changing my hardware and reloads, which means LOKI.

That would require retesting by NAR or TRA to acquire cross certification status. Probably not going to happen.
 
Scott any chance of making a conversion for AT 38mm RMS hardware to fly your reloads, AT was nice enough to inform everyone that the entire 38mm line is going RMS-EZ. Which for me means changing my hardware and reloads, which means LOKI.

No hardware change required. The loads have only changed by including a disposable forward delay grain assembly. The change on your end is just a new forward closure and they are giving them away with motor purchase. I believe if you buy 2 loads, you get the closure. Also, it is the same closure used in the "spacer system" kit.
 
No hardware change required. The loads have only changed by including a disposable forward delay grain assembly. The change on your end is just a new forward closure and they are giving them away with motor purchase. I believe if you buy 2 loads, you get the closure. Also, it is the same closure used in the "spacer system" kit.

I already have the hardware to fly the RMS-EZ, I have the 38/360, 38/720 and RAS, of which the RAS Forward Closure ring is the same one used for the RMS-EZ. My issue with the RMS-EZ is that if I wanted Cesaroni style reloads I would have bought Cesaroni to start with.
 
I already have the hardware to fly the RMS-EZ, I have the 38/360, 38/720 and RAS, of which the RAS Forward Closure ring is the same one used for the RMS-EZ. My issue with the RMS-EZ is that if I wanted Cesaroni style reloads I would have bought Cesaroni to start with.

Uuuuum...ok. I didn't know this was about CTI. You mentioned having to replace all your hardware because of the RMS-EZ changes at AT. Never mind and back to the topic of the thread, LOKI.
 
So I got this little guy up today. :) MadCow 2.6" Screech on a K1127 LB

17798335415_5c23081cd0_c.jpg
17610824190_0607b1d243_c.jpg
17772071686_b19e3d2372_c.jpg



Video and RRC3 data forthcoming. 8723' and 826 MPH (3 pound 7 oz rocket dry)
 
So I got this little guy up today. :) MadCow 2.6" Screech on a K1127 LB

17798335415_5c23081cd0_c.jpg
17610824190_0607b1d243_c.jpg
17772071686_b19e3d2372_c.jpg



Video and RRC3 data forthcoming. 8723' and 826 MPH (3 pound 7 oz rocket dry. 63" tall)
 
I decided to take the day off, mostly to relax, but also to catch up on some questions. I had to step away from the computer the last few days to do some much needed cleaning up at the shop. I had placed a large order with U-Line for boxes, bubble wrap and peanuts and it all had to be put somewhere and organized. It's amazing how much of a work day can be spent on emails, supply/purchase orders, reviewing confirmations, answering thread and PM questions, phone calls, ect. By the time it's all done and it's 6-7pm, I often feel like I haven't got anything done for the day. I know I have got stuff done that needed to be done, but when I go back out in the shop and look around, I see a whole lot of other stuff needing to be done.

Ksaves2 said:
Ummmmm, I am not a member of that group but what makes you think Scott that the topic of exclusive vendor ever comes up for voting? Might just be an edict they're stuck following. Kurt

First off, I am not trying to stir the pot. I would like to answer the question above while providing some background on the information provided. I would also like to provide QCRS members with some guidance and direction and talking points when discussing how they could get me or any other vendor to support their launches. In doing so, I'd like to get some facts strait and point the way to other historical information. It seems that I am often the one being portrayed as the one always crying and complaining. Well traffic travels both ways on that street. My version of events is most always censored at the repeated request of others and therefore unheard by most. And so it loops back around to a negative view on myself since things are then left to rumor and hearsay. Therefore I am simply wanting to state the facts as I know them first hand. I am not looking for discussion on this from anyone. I am simply providing the information. If you have a question or something you wish to tell me, call me or email me. If you don't agree with something here and would like to disagree, start your own thread and invite me to read it. I don't think that is asking too much. I have reviewed the forums rules for posting and believe the content below to be well within those bounds.

Kirt, back when I was a Formula boat salesman here at the Lake of the Ozarks, I was lucky to go to 2-3 launches a year. Summer weekends and holidays were the primary selling times and to ask for time off on a holiday, well you might as well as to be fired. I stopped flying in St. Louis (Elsberry) because they would not listen to anyone wanting to fly EX, so I started driving 6 hours to fly at Princeton, IL or 5.5 hours to Walcott, IA. The first launch I ever went to outside of Elsberry, MO was MWP 3, where I got my Level 3 on an AT M-1315, bought on site. The next day I flew a CTI M-1400, also bought on site, along with some other reloads. Needless to say, like many, I was hooked. This was 2005. For the next 4 years, TQC/QCRS was my only interest as far as rocketry clubs were concerned. I spent countless hours both reading and contributing to the TQC forum. I attended MWP 3, 4, 5, 6 and made Justin's MWP 6 video cover, (2008) the same flight from my avatar. I made many good friends inside TCQ/QCRS during those 4 years. During that time, I was never asked to vote on the "Exclusive Vendor Agreement" because at that time, it was only voted on by the clubs Board of Directors.

Well life threw me several bumps in the road, a few road blocks and a couple detours in the coming year. In April 2009, I moved and went to work for Jeff Taylor at Loki Research in Philadelphia as Production Manager. I was a long way from home and was anxious to get back to Princeton to see my old friends. I started a thread on the TQC forum in anticipation of attending MWP 7. Well that quickly got derailed into something entirely different, something I had no knowledge about until that time.
This is what it turned into. Please note, I never made a post in that thread, but my 1st name and last initial did make it in there. Needless to say, I never made it to MWP 7.

Kirt, as a side note, you'll remember a TQC thread you started called "Petered Out", asking why the TQC forum had petered out and was all but dead. I replied and referenced only the second of the 2 links provided above. I told you I thought that the forum petered out because of the issues in that thread and the subsequent post that Justin made which stated, "I will no longer share my opinions on TQC matters, nor will I be contributing to this message board." I also stated I thought that most all of the other core club members and forum contributors followed in suit. I was banned for almost a week for my comments and for pointing to that thread. Not because I violated the forum rules, because the owner of the forum told me, in his opinion that I did not. I was banned because a very influential QCRS board member decided to bring it to a vote at the BOD meeting which just happened to be that held that same week. They voted that I had (somehow) broke the forum posting rules and that I was to be completely banned from the site, which I was for about a week or so. I had no access at all. After lengthy discussions with the forum owner about how I had not broke any rules, and how the clubs BOD had no say in any matters of the forum, as they are not forum moderators and the TQC forum is not owned or operated by the club in any capacity, the decision to ban me was reversed. Don't bother looking for the "Petered Out" thread as it was "disappeared" that same week.

Fast forward a few years and by the end of April 2011 I had purchased Loki Research. I attended MWP 9 that year after having been invited to vend under the Wildman umbrella. This meant I would be able to sell and vend Loki products through Wildman Hobbies, having set them up as a temporary dealer of sorts. Sales of all commercial Loki products would be made through Wildman's with dealer profits going to them. I was told this was the only way to comply with the clubs exclusive vendor agreement. I was set up with a prime location directly beside the Wildman trailer in full visibility of everyone there. All Loki Research products were discussed and shown by myself in my booth area, but all payments for commercial goods were made beside me in the Wildman trailer. EX items were the only sales I got to keep to myself since no dealer carries those. Technically, you could say they let me break the rules, which shouldn't be a surprize. Many of my friends were incredibly helpful each day in helping me unpack and pack my entire truck at the beginning and end of each day. They made my life a whole lot easier. I didn't fly a thing, and never even planned on it. It was a work weekend like any other, only with the added bonus of watching rockets fly and seeing old friends. A little over $500 in sales was done. Quite pitiful for my time and effort involved, not even enough to cover gas which was sky high at the time. Discussions were had in the motor home about making the dealer arrangement permanent, and it was stressed to me several times how I MUST support my dealers. At the end of the launch Sunday evening, I went to Van Orin, to settle up with Tim on the weekends sales and then spent most of it on a 68" x 4" and 48" x 3" FWFG tubes. They are still sitting untouched in the corner of my shop. After the launch, nothing ever materialized dealer wise.

The next year, I got the same invite to MWP 10 with the same conditions as the year before. I politely declined the offer after knowing what a dismal failure the previous year was. I still wanted to attend to see my friends and fly a few rockets with them, but the trip would cost money that I didn’t have. About a week later, I decided to have a MWP 10 sale to help pay for my expenses. After all, all of our day jobs pay for us to go play and fly rockets at rocket launches. If we don't make enough money, we stay home and save up for the next one. I am no different than the rest of you in that regard, except in what my job is. So, for this sale I knew I could only deliver products to the launch because vending was and still is not allowed by other vendors unless it is done as I described above. Keeping in line with what I was told the year before, I thought it best to support my dealers, so I would support the closest local dealer around that area which was Red Arrow Hobbies.

I could have easily sold everything myself and kept all the profit from anything that was sold, but I didn't. If anyone remembers, I ran the sale through Red Arrow Hobbies. Customers had to purchase the items through RAH and pay them, not me. The Loki dealer would then tell me what to deliver to who and I would invoice RAH for the total dealer cost due. I honestly thought this was the "right" thing to do in order to make everyone happy, and to only deliver products, just as others do. I could not have been more wrong. I was asked by two different people to take down the MWP 10 sales special from my website. One of them asked me to at least remove RAH’s name. On the phone, a very heated hour long discussion revolved around this sale less than 48 hours after I had put it up. I wasn’t going to remove anything from the website as the ball was now rolling and I did not feel I had done anything wrong. I was playing within the rules but I was told exactly where the “spirit of the rules” was supposed to lay. I went to the launch and I wish I never had. I really didn’t enjoy myself. However, I did enjoy the hospitality of the Corbin family that weekend, away from the field. They are very good people.

After all of this had past, I was informed that the following year, QCRS would be having a ballot vote by email on the "Exclusive Vendor Agreement" since there were several members who were not happy about the way the club vote was done the previous year. Sometime between 2009 and 2011, a change was made from having the QCRS BOD vote on t, to having the club members vote on it, and that was news to me. So of course I had to inquire about the vote they had the previous year, because I had never voted. I was told that a vote was held during the launch on Sunday, the last day of MWP 9. When asked why I didn't get to vote at MWP 9, I was told that it was an impromptu vote and that I could not be found when it took place. Those at the launch would know I was parked next to the clubs president and waiver holder all weekend, all day Sunday and there weren't 6 cars left at the field when I left to go home Sunday. But if you remember, I didn't go straight home, I went to Van Orin, to settle up. And I couldn't be found.......

In addition to many conversations with other former and present club members, this is how and why I speak on the subject as someone who is more knowledgeable about it than most. I may not have attended a QCRS launch since MWP 10, but that does not mean I have no idea what is going on with the club and it does not mean I have no interest in it. However, each year I am told how things are going to change, and each year, I see that pretty much nothing has changed. The only major changes I have seen in the past 10 years are the withdraw of at least 5 club members who had tried their hand at being a BOD member and had subsequently resigned, very frustrated, very upset and in some cases, have lost all interest in even flying with the club or rockets at all. I have had conversations with 3 of them so this is not word of mouth. This indicates to me that something has strongly affected these people in a very negative way. That is most unfortunate because these were all very good people who were willing to help out more than most members in order to improve the club.

I have voiced my thoughts so that people will know why I feel the way I do about certain issues. I would also hope that anyone reading this will understand why I and others feel that the QCRS Exclusive Vendor agreement is in place simply because of the way in was initially implemented in the early years by the clubs key board members. In my opinion, it was kept in place long enough so that by the time it was an issue and later left up to all club members to vote on it themselves, the majority voted to keep it in place for fear of the unknown, and the fear of being left high and dry with no one to pick up the slack. I would love to return to the days when I use to look forward to the end of October to attend MWP. I would love to enjoy the same freedoms anyone enjoys at any other launch. But until things change, I won't be going to any QCRS launches and I won't be donating any raffle prizes when asked. I don't see that as unfair given the situation.

I don’t see Mark Logan of Science Education Center complaining about not being the KLOUDBusters sole vendor, but I do see him busting his tail helping out with set up and tear down at every KLOUDBuster launch I have attended. Some people tow the line that much money is lost at all of the other smaller monthly launches which the exclusive vendor agreement requires one to attend. If that were true, any well run business would stop doing this, or anything that cost them money. In this case, it's not just one club, but 3 clubs holding this agreement. Something must be working well here. I’d bet $100 that Robert and Gloria DeHate would jump all over an opportunity like this if they could be the exclusive MDRA vendor with two Red Glare launches a year. I’d wager $1,000 that they would do it if Price Maryland was a 15 minute drive from their house and the sod farm was an hour and a half away. Complaints from them for having to set up and tear down at every launch would be zero. The rewards for their efforts, priceless.

I post all of this because I feel it will help not only QCRS, but any club wanting to grow it's wings. I feel it is a positive thing for any vendor to be able to support any club and it's members if they so choose. If they want to help the club tear down and set up, great. If they want to help you store the clubs equipment and/or transport it to and from, great. If they want to help out in any other way, great, they'll get a pat on the back and a thank you just like everyone else. They'll probably gain a lot of respect in the process too. But why attach strings and strict requirements for something that all other clubs get for free? Because you helped create it? Because you do all the work? What about all the many other people who have helped do the same and have asked for nothing in return? There's a word to define that. What about all the other large clubs who work as a team, together, sharing the responsibilities?

I also post all of this because as a business owner involved in rocketry, I have an interest in QCRS as well. I have many friends and acquaintances there too. Of course I would love to be able to vend there and gain more support for my company. I would like to see changes made that would allow this, but I would never dream of joining the club and running for a BOD seat simply to make changes to the club that are in my best interests. If the club wants to make those changes, it is the clubs responsibility to make those decisions. I also feel it would be inappropriate for me to get 15 minutes to pep-talk the club just prior to voting, let alone time to talk to the club during a club meeting without specifically being asked by the club. That would be very hard to separate myself if I was on the clubs BOD.

I would now like to leave all of my comments above at that and leave them alone. If you have something related which you’d like me to know or a question you’d like to ask, call me, email me or send me a PM. I honestly do not wish to waist any more time on the topic than I already have, but I also don’t want people being misinformed either. I also do not wish to destroy this entire thread by having someone else come in uninvited and argue with me. If you don't agree with something here, start your own thread and invite me to read it. I don't think that is asking too much.



Now back to the non QCRS specific discussion.
If anyone would like to get a group order together for the Mini MWP launch, get together with each other and place a group order. I'll send it to one individual and you can all split the shipping costs. The more people that place an order and the more reloads that are ordered, the lower your shipping costs per motor will be.
 
Do you know yet which launches you will be attending this year?

The only one I know I will be at for sure will be Airfest. I would like to also try and make it to KloudBurst, but that's too far out to say for sure. One of these years, I'd like to make it to the Nebraska HEAT launch. I think that's what it's still called.

Rich, I'm more than happy to have gained another new customer.
Thank you very much. :)
 
So I got this little guy up today. :) MadCow 2.6" Screech on a K1127 LB

17798335415_5c23081cd0_c.jpg
17610824190_0607b1d243_c.jpg
17772071686_b19e3d2372_c.jpg



Video and RRC3 data forthcoming. 8723' and 826 MPH (3 pound 7 oz rocket dry. 63" tall)
Dave, Very cool! Thank you for sharing. Send me the photos if you would please and I'll put them up on the website. :)

From the photos, I'd think that was a small rocket, but it's a 63" long rocket!
Awesome!
 
Dave, Very cool! Thank you for sharing. Send me the photos if you would please and I'll put them up on the website. :)

From the photos, I'd think that was a small rocket, but it's a 63" long rocket!
Awesome!


I handed some doofus my camera and he focused on the rear treeline :) But this gives some idea of the actual size of the rocket. That's easy 5-6 foot of flame.

17178569874_61929802b3.jpg


EDIT: Riley has redeemed himself!
17656229948_9d449bb994_c.jpg
 
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Man that appeared to be one straight flight from the video, hardly any spin and straight up, beautiful launch! Love that LB.

thanks man. I'm very happy with the flight :)
Great motor Scott. You've got a winner here.

17614763958_47e3108e3a_b.jpg
 
I handed some doofus my camera and he focused on the rear treeline :) But this gives some idea of the actual size of the rocket. That's easy 5-6 foot of flame.

Hey now, us doofuses resemble that remark. Takes real skill to focus on trees - took me at least a long time to master it.

Great shots by the way. Very cool.
 
Thanks...

Sorry to hijack your thread a bit Scott, hope you don't mind but this motor excited me so kind of your fault. I'll be emailing you the photos within the week. Last post I promise, here's the data:

17804167255_55084a14b5_b.jpg
 
Hey now, us doofuses resemble that remark. Takes real skill to focus on trees - took me at least a long time to master it.

Great shots by the way. Very cool.

Thanks Andy! Sorry David, but that foliage was so lush and beautiful I couldn't help myself.
 
You saved everyone the agony of having to see an in Focus shot of me. Trees are much better :)

So. J1026 up next :)
 
(Snip for brevity's sake)

Kirt, as a side note, you'll remember a TQC thread you started called "Petered Out", asking why the TQC forum had petered out and was all but dead. I replied and referenced only the second of the 2 links provided above. I told you I thought that the forum petered out because of the issues in that thread and the subsequent post that Justin made which stated, "I will no longer share my opinions on TQC matters, nor will I be contributing to this message board." I also stated I thought that most all of the other core club members and forum contributors followed in suit. I was banned for almost a week for my comments and for pointing to that thread. Not because I violated the forum rules, because the owner of the forum told me, in his opinion that I did not. I was banned because a very influential QCRS board member decided to bring it to a vote at the BOD meeting which just happened to be that held that same week. They voted that I had (somehow) broke the forum posting rules and that I was to be completely banned from the site, which I was for about a week or so. I had no access at all. After lengthy discussions with the forum owner about how I had not broke any rules, and how the clubs BOD had no say in any matters of the forum, as they are not forum moderators and the TQC forum is not owned or operated by the club in any capacity, the decision to ban me was reversed. Don't bother looking for the "Petered Out" thread as it was "disappeared" that same week.

(Snip for brevity's sake)

Hi Scott,

I vaguely remember posting that subject but never saw a reply. By that time, posts had decreased that I didn't look on the site much after that. Must 've been pulled and I forgot about it.
Wondered where everyone went as I wasn't a member and didn't know about the back stories. There were a lot of informative posts there and that's why I liked to refer to that board. Too bad as there
was a lot of good information espoused there. Kept me from experimenting with colored smoke grains as it was pointed out to me by folks on the board that they might make the motor go "boom" instead of putting
out pretty colored smoke. Kurt
 
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