Black Powder Substitute

Having issues finding 4F black powder up here and was wondering if anyone has been using Pyrodex or similar instead...

I have heard one guy said that pyrodex works, if you confine it well and use more of it to offset its reduced power under limited confinement. However given the choice I'd rather have real blackpowder. Where are you located?

I mean under the right confinement, even fast burning smokeless will work well, in fact it will work better because they produce more gas and doesn't throw burning bits around that tends to burn parachutes.

op: I love it when this Thread happens!!!

Is this a recurring toipic ?? I searched before posting and didn't find anything....

I'm in Calgary, Canada. There are still a few gun shops I haven't called yet but those I've been to so far -including Bass Pro don't have.

Pyrodex did not work for me at all. I tried ground testing with pyrodex and it would not separate my rocket. 3F and 4F black powder worked just fine.

Check for local places that specialize in antique or antique-replica firearms. Or get some chemicals from Amazon and a ball mill from scratch or commercial, and make your own.

I don't know what are the laws on Canada regarding antique firearms... so it may not be as available as the states. I think in the UK (for example) you need an explosive permit to buy black powder.

You can make your own, however I will say in the states at least, while making it is legal transporting it is not. Canada may be stricter. Also making good blackpowder isn't so simple. Skylighter.com does have some good info on making blackpowder, but don't use their hardwood charcoal because it won't yield good bp. Just be careful with the stuff, ball mills can (and does) explode so if you aren't comfortable with that, figure out a way to make pyrodex work.

You do need to confine pyrodex (actually according to some sites, even bp won't work for recovery at high altitudes unless confined) with a lot more than just a plastic bag or tissue paper. According to Wikipedia some made pyrodex work by wrapping it in many layers of electrical tape. You may want to beef up your e match as well by dipping it in commercial igniter pyrogen to simulate how they get ignited in a gun, to promote better burn.

TopRamen said:

op: I love it when this Thread happens!!!

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LOL- I can almost set my Grandfather clock to this!

I've made BP many, MANY years ago but it wasn't very good and performance is critical in this application so I'm inclined to leave it to the pros this time.

If Pyrodex (which is easy for me to get) is not a viable alternative, then I will just have to keep calling around until I find BP. I'm sure if I ask the right person in the right gun club, it's around somewhere.

I always use the tears of orphans mixed with puppy toe nail clippings.

Good bp will require good charcoal, it makes the biggest difference believe it or not. I won't talk about this because it may be against forum rules, however you can find good information on making bp on the internet should you choose that route.

taiwanluthiers said:

Good bp will require good charcoal, it makes the biggest difference believe it or not. I won't talk about this because it may be against forum rules, however you can find good information on making bp on the internet should you choose that route.

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Try and get a line on some 4F otherwise you'll constantly be worrying about it. Kurt

Cabelas in Canada sells it.

https://www.cabelas.ca/product/13127/goex-black-powder

If you don't mind paying $90.00/pound, you can pick the clay nozzles out of D12-0 motors and fracture the good stuff by crushing the casing in a vise. Of course, this would void any warranties and is not economically feasible even at Hobbylinc prices.

This is probably illegal too. I suggested the same in the past and got yelled at by the mods. Please be careful.

Just saying. And kids, don't try this at home! :rant:

FFFg will work just fine, and is often easier to find than FFFFg.

timbucktoo said:

Cabelas in Canada sells it.

https://www.cabelas.ca/product/13127/goex-black-powder

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Yay ! -Canadian retailer !

Booo ! No store in my city :-(

Yay ! They are building one -and it's a 5min drive from my house !

Booooo! Not opening until fall. *sigh*

taiwanluthiers said:

This is probably illegal too. I suggested the same in the past and got yelled at by the mods. Please be careful.

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It's ridiculously easy to find (good) sites with instructions on how to make BP.

Getting the ingredients to make it though (at least GOOD QUALITY ingredients) is as much of a challenge -if not more- than finding the BP in the first place !

I would consider making my own if I needed lots of it but for the number of flights I will do in a year, a 1lb can of BP will go a loooong way.

TopRamen said:

op: I love it when this Thread happens!!!

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fyrwrxz said:

LOL- I can almost set my Grandfather clock to this!

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It does make one glad the world is dependable and predictable.

I need help. I think I may be in the wrong part of the website, but I'm not sure where to go. This is my first time getting into the rocketry mix and I'm looking to do a little benchmarking. I want to know where I can find current drogue release systems. I'm largely interested in the electrical portion. Do people prefer altimeters or timed releases?

bugga951 said:

I need help. I think I may be in the wrong part of the website, but I'm not sure where to go. This is my first time getting into the rocketry mix and I'm looking to do a little benchmarking. I want to know where I can find current drogue release systems. I'm largely interested in the electrical portion. Do people prefer altimeters or timed releases?

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I believe you want to be in the Rocketry Electronics and Software section. I believe most folks use altimeters for drogue release.

I did an experiment with 4F and 777 Pyrodex. Both were packed into a small plastic cylinder and sealed with electrical tape. Normal paper towel material was used for wadding. 1 gram each. This is supposedly enough containment needed for Pyrodex. Judge for yourself in the video.

[YOUTUBE]wAFyZCvyuTU[/YOUTUBE]

I have used 3F and it has worked pretty well. 4-F is a little better.

Pyrodex needs much more confinement than you are providing in the vid... you probably didn't see any unburnt powder because they are scattered in the grass (do it on concrete and it will show better).

If properly confined smokeless type powder is actually better. You can use less powder and you'll get a much stronger ejection, again if properly confined. It will also produce very little if any burning chunks meaning there won't be as much parachute burning.

Proper confinement means confine the powder as though it is in a gun. Strong containers, strong ignition (more than e match will be needed, you need to simulate a magnum rifle primer ignition, perhaps e match augmented with composite motor pyrogen will do).

Thank you.

taiwanluthiers said:

Pyrodex needs much more confinement than you are providing in the vid...

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I contained my powder the way it was suggested by other people in earlier threads on this topic. The plastic cups were thicker than a typical 35mm camera film container. electrical tape instead of masking tape. It was compressed with a lot of wadding. How much more containment can be done than that? Putting it into a metal container is dangerous.

I don't disagree that smokeless powder, if properly contained, produces a stronger explosion. Can you do that in the field at a rocket launch? I don't think so. I have tried other ways to contain the 4-f, but I think short of being encased in a sealed metal cylinder, which is highly dangerous even when the rocket is thousands of feet up, it cannot be contained properly. Pyrodex is meant to be used for bullets. That's all.

This is a video that is not related to rocketry that demonstrates the challenge of smokeless powder vs. BP pretty dramatically, and it also gives you an idea of the differences between F through 4F BP and other versions of BP substitute. The stuff is ignited about 4:10 into the video.

[YOUTUBE]lIsvVFeEZsg[/YOUTUBE]

You could possibly confine it with wet gum tape, paste it as you would a salute, then spike it with strings. I don't know if this could cause smokeless to be powerful enough to damage rockets however.

I use Hodgdon Triple Seven exclusively, never had a problem. You fill up the charge well appropriately, pack it firmly to the top with dog barf, and put about 8 strips of paper masking tape over the opening so that it's on nice and tight. It's much cleaner than BP, and doesn't seem to be as corrosive either.

First, I've never used BP substitutes. I've used BP poured over a match on a piece of duct tape with the tape folded over to seal everything in place. That would never work with substitutes, but is OK with 4F BP. I've found that the same amount of BP in a charge container with dogbarf and masking tape to seal it, will give a more forceful ejection than the duct tape method. I think that supports the containment idea for powder to make them work better.

My issue with containment, whether BP or a substitute is that I don't want a gun shot going off inside my rocket. The purpose of the ejection charge is to pressurize the BT. BP does that in a "relative" slow and steady manner. A well contained substitute seems like it builds a lot of pressure inside the container to complete burning and then explodes out of the container to pressurize the BT. What happens if something is too close to the explosive discharge? Are you more likely to damage the BT, recovery components, etc? I may be wrong, but it would seem to me that a lesser explosion inside the rocket is better than a very energetic one if they both provide the same amount of pressure in the BT.

I'm sure a Cherry Bomb would pressurize a large BT just as well as several grams of BP, but that doesn't mean I would want to use one inside my rocket.