Firework rockets for November the 5th

Last November the 5th (a firework party night in the UK) I had an idea of building a two stage firework model rocket.
In short the design includes a standard firework rocket (about 1" dia. conical nose cone and without a stick) for the top stage. This is epoxied into a body tube. And a C11 or D12-0 for the lower stage.
The idea is that the lower stage takes it up, the top stage ignites then throws out a display.
The design is about 7" tall and is stable with a cal. of about 1.5.

I think it will work but something tells me it is either dangerous or illegal. That's my question.

My first thought is there is a weight falling from a height with only air resistance to slow it down - no installed recovery. Then again we launch much heavier firework rockets on November the 5th without any controls on recovery whatsoever.

Something tells me there is a rule somewhere that outlaws this homemade rocket.

Any thoughts?

SO.

I'm going to go with "not just 'no', but 'heck no'" ... We've been fighting the "model rockets are not fireworks" battle since before I left the hobby. What you propose is definitely illegal here in the States, and I would bet it's illegal in the UK.

Short version, leave the pyro to the licensed experts.

This is beyond the scope of this hobby. There are amateur pyros out there, try contacting the UK Pyro Society. Rocketry is focused on building the rocket itself as well as electronics or other accessories to either record altitude or control deployment events. There is a subset of this hobby that makes their own motor but in general using explosive or flammable payload is not allowed as per model/high power rocketry safety code of all rocketry organizations.

The 5 November celebrations sound like a lot of fun! Bonfires! Fireworks!

I would agree that modifying a rocket to be any kind of firework is probably illegal and also sends the wrong message that rockets = fireworks. If we don't want model rocketry to become regulated as fireworks, then we should avoid having the two confused.

One thing that you could do that would be within the rules and maintain a distinction between rockets and fireworks would be a night launch. The rocket would not be an expendable firework. It would be a legitimate model rocket with the required recovery gear. It would have some kind of lighting system, usually LED, that would allow you to see it throughout the flight and descent and find it on the ground. Some of the lighting systems are really amazing, with patterns and colors, and very bright. Search the forum for night launch ideas.

Thanks all for your replies.

It's much as I thought. I made the design to see if a simulation could work - and it does. I've no intention of building it however. I don't like the idea of a spent D motor falling on someone's head from 500', even with fins to tumble it. But doesn't that happen on a conventional 2 stager?

I think there are two strands here. One is, I can't believe it's not illegal as much heavier objects fall from the sky on November the 5th, seemingly legal. There's a contradiction somewhere which I guess is between the rules of rocketry and those of fireworks. I'll look at it further.
The other strand that I didn't expect is the linkage between rocketry and fireworks and the objection to mixing them. It hadn't occurred to me before but yes, I can understand how the connection to fireworks can damage and diminish the credibility of rocketry. Again, I'll have to check but I think that the fireworks rules are quite relaxed in the UK compared with the rules of rocketry. Anyone can buy and launch even the heavier "display" rockets, all year round.

Food for thought?

SO.

PS. And yes, fireworks night is a lot of fun as long as the bonfire lights in a damp autumn.

Do what you gotta' do, but just don't talk about it here on the Rocketry Forums.

Try asking this on a pyro forum rather than rocketry... this is not the place to talk about it.

TopRamen said:

Do what you gotta' do, but just don't talk about it here on the Rocketry Forums.

Click to expand...

Wow! Strong views. I thought it was just politics we couldn't discuss. Now it's fireworks!
Talking about issues I don't understand is, "what I gotta do". That's how I get to understand.

All the best.

SO.

Space Oddity said:

Last November the 5th (a firework party night in the UK) I had an idea of building a two stage firework model rocket.
In short the design includes a standard firework rocket (about 1" dia. conical nose cone and without a stick) for the top stage. This is epoxied into a body tube. And a C11 or D12-0 for the lower stage.
The idea is that the lower stage takes it up, the top stage ignites then throws out a display.

Click to expand...

OK, setting aside the legal issues, I can think of several practical problems right off. First is how do you plan to ignite the firework? Usual ignition procedure for a BP two-stager is that burning particles, hot gas, or flame from the booster motor goes up the nozzle of the sustainer motor and ignites it. (Exactly which of those does the job is a debate best left for another thread. :lol But a firework is ignited by a blue touch paper, which is effectively a long burn fuse whose purpose is to let you put a match to it and then get away before the firework does its stuff. So even if the booster motor does light the paper, the firework will be on its way down or possibly even on the ground by the time it ignites. Fortunately, it probably won't have much thrust because there's a body tube filled with a now expended C11 or D12 glued behind it, so if you're lucky it will just sit there and fizz before shooting a lot of coloured fireballs in whichever random direction it's pointing. If you're unlucky it will explode first. If you're really unlucky it will in fact have enough thrust to chase you round the field before shooting the aforementioned coloured fireballs at you. If you're amazingly unlucky, that's when the police or fire brigade show up to explain the legal issues which were set aside at the beginning of this reply. :lol: (And there are legal issues. I once asked about replacing the blue touch paper with an Estes igniter so that I could light a firework more safely, I wasn't even thinking about mixing fireworks and model rocket motors. The advice then was that modifying a firework like that counts as an act of manufacture, which would put me on the wrong side of the explosives laws. So the only things I've lit with Estes igniters have been genuine model rocket motors!)

Summary: this is a bad idea in so many ways.

What you can safely do is build a model rocket which looks like a firework. A single stage one could even be a scale model of a Congreve artillery rocket - I've built that myself. You could make a multi-stage model rocket stabilised by a firework-style stick quite safely. Launch that by day, then let off your fireworks by night. All safe and legal, you're doing your bit to keep model rocketry separate from fireworks, and you get to party day and night.

By the way, those who makes their own fireworks usually make their own motors as well... I don't think I've seen anyone on the pyro forums who ever used Estes motor for it (I guess because they don't want to offend the rocketry people and it's not legal). That and no Estes motor would ever whistle...

Also while in the US it is legal (as far as the Federal government is concerned) to make your own fireworks/explosives as long as you do not transport or sell them, the UK may have different rules on that. Like I said if you are interested in this get with the UK pyro society... they should know more. Also the EU have made some rules regarding "explosive precursor" meaning any oxidizers more than 30% are illegal to buy, and will become illegal to own in a few years.

Thanks, your replies are fantastic.

Please carry on and advise me more.

SO.