The creation of the CinerocDV Camera.

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K'Tesh

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[EDIT] I've asked Admin to move this thread out of the Wanted section, as it has evolved from the original request into a documentation of the creation of the CinerocDV. I've also renamed the thread.

[EDIT] The original .ork files were based on Mike Jerauld's dimensional drawing. Reading further you'll see that after noticing several discrepancies with it, I measured the parts again and updated the dimensional drawing and files.[/EDIT]

I've not had anybody be able to come through with a bid on this... I'm looking for someone who can print two reproductions of the Cineroc nosecone, and one copy each of the transition and the "keyed bulkhead". I don't need the camera's body, nor the mirror's shroud.

The transition (seen below) needs a notch taken out of it (which I simulated in red). The black rings inside it and on the bulkhead are actually holes for screws to connect the bulkhead to the transition (but are optional). The black object seen inside the transition is reinforcement to prevent a hard landing from cracking the bottom of the transition.

If you're interested, please PM me, and we can talk more about this.




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I just modelled the nose section in openscad and it looks really good. But the shoulder is different than what you want - what is the diameter and length of the shoulder on the nose that you are looking for?

I can potentially print it, but I can only print in PLA and you really want this printed in abs. Of course, once you have the stl files, you can always have it printed by Shapeways.
 
Go to makexyz.com, you can usually find someone local for as little as $0.25 per cm^3
 
I just modelled the nose section in openscad and it looks really good. But the shoulder is different than what you want - what is the diameter and length of the shoulder on the nose that you are looking for?

I can potentially print it, but I can only print in PLA and you really want this printed in abs. Of course, once you have the stl files, you can always have it printed by Shapeways.

Hi Greg,

The shoulder that I have in the .ork file is .5" long, and 1.75" OD.

The real Cineroc's nosecone shoulder is .124" long, and 1.75" OD.

[EDIT]The real Cineroc's nosecone shoulder is .125" long, and 1.75" OD. (stupid fat fingers)[/EDIT]

[EDIT]Deleted the .ork file associated with the image below, as I found that it had errors. A corrected version of the file is included in a later post.



I'm curious, why do you say ABS would be the desired material to print it in?

Thanks!
Jim
 
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PLA has a lower thermal stability than ABS - as a result it is prone to warping when exposed to moderately high heat such as in a hot car during the summer. ABS is more thermally stable. Also, you can use solvents such as acetone to smooth ABS (what they call vapor smoothing). Solvents for PLA are much nastier and don't work as well - thus sanding is the only option to smooth ABS, and it is a hard sanding plastic. Unfortunately, you really need a heated bed to print ABS, and my printer does not currently have one (the manufacturer is supposedly developing one, but hasn't happened yet. I will be happy to forward the STL files to you as I complete them - you might check the "Maker" community in your home town and see if there might be someone local who can do the print job for you.
 
PLA has a lower melting point than ABS - as a result it is prone to warping when exposed to moderately high heat such as in a hot car during the summer. ABS is more thermally stable. Also, you can use solvents such as acetone to smooth ABS (what they call vapor smoothing). Solvents for PLA are much nastier and don't work as well - thus sanding is the only option to smooth ABS, and it is a hard sanding plastic. Unfortunately, you really need a heated bed to print ABS, and my printer does not currently have one (the manufacturer is supposedly developing one, but hasn't happened yet. I will be happy to forward the STL files to you as I complete them - you might check the "Maker" community in your home town and see if there might be someone local who can do the print job for you.

I've learned that PLA is a B***H to sand. You feel up to doing the .STLs? I'd really appreciate it!

Thanks!
Jim
 
I've been working with openscad for a while now, and if you can describe a shape mathematically with spheres, cylinders and cubes (and stretched versions of the same), I can do the stl file of it. OpenScad is more like programming than CAD or graphic design, but then I've been programming home computers for 35 years. The nose is actually done in a format that I planned to use, but the shoulder will need to be changed for your purposes - very easily done. I haven't started on the transition yet, but aside from trying to avoid printing overhangs, it shouldn't be that tough either.

I used the mechanical drawing that I think you posted a while back for my design - I plan to print the whole thing, mount some mirrors in it and use a small spy cam inside. I'm also thinking of doing a Camroc as well - again, the shapes aren't too complex so it is certainly doable.
 
Hi Greg,

All, I can do is have you look at the .ork files I've created. They are the best I've got (and as accurate as I can do with my digital caliper (.001")). To simplify the transition, the "support ring", could be just a ledge built on the inside of the transition. The screw holes in it, and on the bulkhead are optional. It would be similar to what Landru did to allow me to make a tube coupler into the shoulder of the nosecone of OFFL.

attachment.php


Mind you, the "key" in the keyed bulkhead would be rounded to have a .9" radius. This would thus match the outer diameter of the camera body.

In re-reading the thread, I made a mistake in the nosecone's shoulder... The real Cineroc's nosecone shoulder is .125" long, and 1.75" OD. I've corrected the post above.
 
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But since you are using body tube (my guess) for the cineroc body, how long do you WANT the shoulder to be? I will have to redo it for you any way because the shoulder I put on the part is 3mm long (close to .125", but openscad works in mm) and is 1mm smaller in radius than the body - I am making the shell of the whole thing 1mm thick so I have to allow for that. A paper tube would, of course, be thinner and would support the 1.75" diameter.

And, yes - I agree that PLA is a B***H to sand - that is why I suggested you find someone who can print it in ABS.
 
Next question, are the holes in the bulkhead the inner or outer diameter of the inner tube? (0.125 or 0.046) I'm guessing 0.125...
 
And to whet your appetite - I've got three views of the render - the first is a full shot of the nose cone, the second is a look inside (yes - it is hollow with a 1mm shell), and the third is a closeup of the bottom with shoulder. I worked out the math so the cone is fully tangental to the sphere that makes up the tip. And, yes, the math was REALLY fun!

cineroc nose 1.png

cineroc nose 2.png

cineroc nose 3.png
 
With 3D printing, having the shoulder and nosecone as separate parts is probably recommended; printing over the empty space where the nosecone widens above the shoulder causes problems. I've got a similar model (currently cheating on the tangential transition for v1) with the shoulder as a separately printed piece. A little acetone or other suitable solvent should stick the two parts together nicely.
 
With 3D printing, having the shoulder and nosecone as separate parts is probably recommended; printing over the empty space where the nosecone widens above the shoulder causes problems. I've got a similar model (currently cheating on the tangential transition for v1) with the shoulder as a separately printed piece. A little acetone or other suitable solvent should stick the two parts together nicely.

Actually, I've printed a number of nose cones on my Bukito and the small amount of overhang that is the difference between the shoulder and the nose cone itself has never been a problem. Remember - we're talking about a mm or less overhang here. Also, I print in PLA, which isn't dissolved by acetone - epoxy or CA are the only options with PLA.
 
Next question, are the holes in the bulkhead the inner or outer diameter of the inner tube? (0.125 or 0.046) I'm guessing 0.125...

They're the inner diameter. They don't exist in the real Cineroc, but I'm using them to firmly mount the camera's sled (unmodeled as of yet), and allow the user to swap to the 8mm film version (once I dissect a real Cineroc, and have the parts drawn up).
 
Actually, I've printed a number of nose cones on my Bukito and the small amount of overhang that is the difference between the shoulder and the nose cone itself has never been a problem. Remember - we're talking about a mm or less overhang here. Also, I print in PLA, which isn't dissolved by acetone - epoxy or CA are the only options with PLA.

Nice looking Sims!

One caution to make note of. The forward portion of the nosecone (the hemispherical part), is solid inside, and not rounded to match the outer edge. This allows the screw eye to be mounted for a downward, or horizontal camera angle upon ejection.

Good to know about the gluing options.

I've also found out that a high school rocketry club is interested in working on this as well (thanks to Doug Bertlesen), and the files will be made open to everyone. I may be wrong, but it looks like a working the CinerocDV may be here soon. :D
 
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I used the mechanical drawing that I think you posted a while back for my design - I plan to print the whole thing, mount some mirrors in it and use a small spy cam inside. I'm also thinking of doing a Camroc as well - again, the shapes aren't too complex so it is certainly doable.

About the Camroc... I've also thought about a DV version of it. My idea has the shutter with a hole in it so it can capture whatever is going on once it is turned on. Then when the shutter is supposed to click as it would on a real version, there's a small band of material blocking a portion (or all) of the lens. This would indicate when the camera "took" its picture. Finally, with the shutter in the deployed position, there would be another hole so it could film the remaining portion of the flight. I've got the same idea for the Astrocam110 as well.

My story concept here would be something like what you see when there's people taking photos in some cops and robbers movie. Movement through the view of the lens, the sound of the camera, and the image freezes for a moment, more movement, etc.
 
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I'd love to make a DIY convert an 808 keychain cam to CinerocDV. Let's see how round one goes. I'd bet we will start test printing on Friday.

Here is a quick teaser for files made on this end. Nosecone is a shell (tip not filled at the moment) and still needs a shoulder. Bulkhead probably has holes a bit off from spec. Measured from center rather than edge.


CinerocBulkheadAndNosecone.png

Doug
 
But since you are using body tube (my guess) for the cineroc body, how long do you WANT the shoulder to be? I will have to redo it for you any way because the shoulder I put on the part is 3mm long (close to .125", but openscad works in mm) and is 1mm smaller in radius than the body - I am making the shell of the whole thing 1mm thick so I have to allow for that. A paper tube would, of course, be thinner and would support the 1.75" diameter.

And, yes - I agree that PLA is a B***H to sand - that is why I suggested you find someone who can print it in ABS.

The body tube I found that is the correct diameter (of all things) is the body tube used for the recently discontinued Estes D Region Tomahawk. From my kitbash concept of the Ventris/Titan III, I've got two spare tubes that fit the real part perfectly.

If the model is supposed to be digital only, then I'd say 13mm (~1/2"). To accommodate a potential version that would allow you to go DV to 8mm and back, then as close to .125" is necessary on the transition's end of things. The nosecone's shoulder isn't quite so critical to the fit of the camera mechanism inside the camera body.
 
About the Camroc... I've also thought about a DV version of it. My idea has the shutter with a hole in it so it can capture whatever is going on once it is turned on. Then when the shutter is supposed to click as it would on a real version, there's a small band of material blocking a portion (or all) of the lens. This would indicate when the camera "took" its picture. Finally, with the shutter in the deployed position, there would be another hole so it could film the remaining portion of the flight. I've got the same idea for the Astrocam110 as well.

My story concept here would be something like what you see when there's people taking photos in some cops and robbers movie. Movement through the view of the lens, the sound of the camera, and the image freezes for a moment, more movement, etc.


If you're gutsy enough, an 808 can be disassembled and the CCD moved to point directly downwards. This would get rid of the need for mirrors on the DV version.

Doug
 
I'd love to make a DIY convert an 808 keychain cam to CinerocDV. Let's see how round one goes. I'd bet we will start test printing on Friday.

Here is a quick teaser for files made on this end. Nosecone is a shell (tip not filled at the moment) and still needs a shoulder. Bulkhead probably has holes a bit off from spec. Measured from center rather than edge.


View attachment 253289

Doug

Cool! Thanks Doug!

About that key... it'll need to be rounded off some. It should match the OD of the camera body (1.8", or a .9" radius from the center of the circle)
 
If you're gutsy enough, an 808 can be disassembled and the CCD moved to point directly downwards. This would get rid of the need for mirrors on the DV version.

Doug

It could... but my goal is to make this look as authentic as possible (externally). Besides, the mirror work fine... If I could only find that file I made a few months ago.


[EDIT]By disassembling the 808 and using a mirror, you keep the guts inside the camera body, and reduce the likelihood of damaging the lens when you remove the camera to charge or download. You also only have to angle the lens 90 degrees, and not 180. Then again, you can buy replacement lenses (wide angle, narrow angle) for the 808 on ebay.

[EDIT] Now I remember where that file is... It's located on the dead laptop (monitor died).
 
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Good to know about the "key" shape. I'll admit, you were very creative using OpenRocket to get the ideas across.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but does the red "key notch" need to extend below the internal bulkhead as shown, or is that a side-effect of OpenRocket only letting you attach fins to a body tube?

Last question before I stop for the night: The rear bulkhead reinforcement seems to have a larger gap in the middle. Is this desired or would you like a circular thicker section in the center with 4-6 arms radiating out towards the edge?

Doug
 
BTW... For those who are thinking about doing this... Here's some images of an actual Cineroc's mirror shroud. The shroud was removed from the remains of a Cineroc sent to me after it was mauled by a lonely great dane puppy.

Underside of the shroud:



Camera looking to viewer's left:


Camera looking to viewer's right:


Rear view:


And another rear view:
 
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Funny that the shroud is asymmetrical like that; probably to have enough room for the guts. Bulkhead now has a rounded key.

I'm interested to see how far this little project goes.

CinerocNoseAndBulkhead2.png

Doug
 
I see a couple of reasons that the shroud is asymmetrical. If it was symmetrical, you stand an increased chance of accidentally stabbing it with the launch rod (presuming it was lined up with the LL's). The other reason is the size of the film cartridge and the needs of the camera's drive mechanisms. If it was centered/symmetrical, the entire camera would need to be larger.

Nice job on the sim's and getting that key fixed.
 
What I'll need to do next time I'm at school is scan a rubbing of the holes that allow the shroud to be pinned to the camera body, and the lens to look out at the mirror.

I think my calipers don't like the thin material of the camera's body. When I try to measure the holes, I always get different values.
 
Good to know about the "key" shape. I'll admit, you were very creative using OpenRocket to get the ideas across.

I just futz with it until I can get something that looks right(ish). Nice thing about OR... It doesn't prevent you from making two (or more) parts exist in the same space at the same time.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but does the red "key notch" need to extend below the internal bulkhead as shown, or is that a side-effect of OpenRocket only letting you attach fins to a body tube?

The notch does extend below the ridge to support the bulkhead. It's where the switch to turn the real Cineroc on and off is accessed from (the switch mounted on the underside of the real Cineroc's bulkhead/camera sled).

Here's a good image from Earl Cagle Jr. of his Cineroc's transition:


Last question before I stop for the night: The rear bulkhead reinforcement seems to have a larger gap in the middle. Is this desired or would you like a circular thicker section in the center with 4-6 arms radiating out towards the edge?

I'm sorry, but I can't visualize what you're trying to ask.

[EDIT] Ok... The aftmost bulkhead (I was thinking of the reinforcing ring)... You guessed right. The idea there was to have a thick circular section for the screw eye to mount into, and the 4 arms to radiate out to distribute any forceful impact across width of the bulkhead. The original Cineroc had only a single thickness of plastic that the screw eye mounted into. The dog eaten Cineroc broke in just such an impact (if I don't miss my guess), that was why the owner was willing to let it go (then the dog got it).
 
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One thing I really like about Greg's rendering software... You can clearly see how the nosecone goes from a hemisphere, to a conical section, then to a cylindrical section, before you end with the shoulder.

attachment.php


In Open Rocket, I'd need to make it three colors to make it visible (and the hemisphere/cone joint still has an odd (unrealistic) bulge). I'm not going to post an image... Everything I tried ended up looking like either an ice cream cone, or a clown hat.
 
One thing I really like about Greg's rendering software... You can clearly see how the nosecone goes from a hemisphere, to a conical section, then to a cylindrical section, before you end with the shoulder.

In Open Rocket, I'd need to make it three colors to make it visible (and the hemisphere/cone joint still has an odd (unrealistic) bulge). I'm not going to post an image... Everything I tried ended up looking like either an ice cream cone, or a clown hat.


You may be able to play with the part reflectivity to get a bit better idea in OpenRocket. Reflectivity has a lot to do with the different variations in shading.

ABS is loaded in the printer; I need to switch out glass and start some test prints. Hopefully we will have parts taking shape early next week.

Doug
 
You may be able to play with the part reflectivity to get a bit better idea in OpenRocket. Reflectivity has a lot to do with the different variations in shading.

ABS is loaded in the printer; I need to switch out glass and start some test prints. Hopefully we will have parts taking shape early next week.

Doug

Thanks Doug!

I'll try that (play w/reflectivity).

Looking forward to seeing what you're able to do.

All the Best!
Jim
 
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