Idea: ground support software

And any software would have to compete with such. And I also have a realistic view that paper won't go away for a very long time.

In the meantime the tech is to the point where it could start to assist with this task. I am not asking people who are against it to like it.

1tree said:

And any software would have to compete with such. And I also have a realistic view that paper won't go away for a very long time.

In the meantime the tech is to the point where it could start to assist with this task. I am not asking people who are against it to like it.

Click to expand...

I don't see the tech being there or affordable, and I don't see it offering any advantage over paper for flight ops.

1.) Every flier needs to fill out a flight card for each flight. If you go electronic, who's going to supply the fliers with the electronics and training for the data input?

2.) Every flier needs to bring their flight card and rocket to safety check. The safety checker reads the flight card info, checks out the rocket and signs the flight card. Then the safety checker or a pad manager assigns a pad. If you go electronic, how is the info passed from the flier to the safety checker and pad manager and how do they transfer that information to the LCO or assistant LCO who would normally place the flight card in a launch que rack?

3.) The LCO goes through the launch que rack, does a countdown and launches the rocket. If there is no launch cards, the que must be constructed electronically so the LCO know who's rocket is on what pad and is ready to launch.

At a minimum you need a wireless LAN and several tablets or notebooks operating at least 4 data entry points: the flier, the RSO, the pad manager and the LCO, and an integrated flight management system that permits launch queing, pad assignment, safety checking and initial data entry for each rocket. I see a minimum $2000 to $3000 investment in full sun tablets or notebooks, a WIFI hotspot and software.

Once you have flown the rockets and input the flight card data into a launch analysis program you can generate a launch report. That's nice data to have but you do not need it in real time which is the only reason why you need to computerize the flight ops processing.

FWIW

Bob

What Bob said.

The hardware would have to be resistant to heat, cold, dust, rain......
This iPad I am using now will die, screen goes black, if left in the sun. I take it with me to Black Rock, but it stays at the motel out of the dust.
I would not use any system without having a proven track record so both paper a eFlightcards would need to be run simultaneously until bugs are worked out.

A lot of launches are on a tight budget, the acquisition and maintainence cost would be too much.
Finding volunteers to do existing tasks is difficult, this would require tech savvy volunteers.

Show me something that works and does not cost more and I will use it.

M

We have thought about this at our club. We are still investigating it. I agree with what you are saying but not everyone flies at black rock. In SC and GA, the temps are high but you can protect against that a little with a tent.

Tablets are cheap if you stay away from 3G and iPads. If you make it cell phone based, all most everyone has one.

Not meaning to be ugly, but I don't care that some here believe God himself ordained paper flight cards.

Data transfer is doable in the field. Sign off is doable. Entry is doable for many fields. I see smartphones at every launch I go to. And paper - well it will still work for those who either choose it, or believe that it chose them in some metaphysical religious experience.

Kirk

Kirk,

I commend your effort. A lot of fliers look at their field as being the norm and everyone else must be the same. We have a good 3G connection for cell use and I think wifi is doable with a wireless router.

I really don't know what the norm is because I have only ever launched with my own club. But... I can say that I notice when someone is carrying a phone other than a smartphone. And I notice that the major carriers mostly ignore the market for other phones.

To be honest, I don't want to design something that needs a server for several reasons. Wifi is very easy for smart phones though it would only work for this not provide free data. Two other ideas are Bluetooth and QR codes.

Of another note, I have this thing about bad UI design. It is that I hate it and don't want to do one. I would rather take a bit longer to work well.

The smartphone took off when someone designed a good interface that didn't need some stylus. MS lost the while smartphone race because they failed to accept what works for the desktop doesn't in a phone.

in order to keep and backup data you would need access to a cell network which at best at a lot of fields is low signal or none at all.
I would not want to lose the data in a tablet crash.
One would need to setup a network at the site and with a router, too much really.
Besides it would be a full time job entering data during the meet which would be taxing.
I would copy to paper and enter into a system later where the results could be viewed a day or two after the meet on the club's site..

In the military, we have local networks that upload when connectivity is better. I think it is possible.

I do agree that it might not be worth it right now.

Part of my job is building a similar system used with only local wifi connectivity. This is doable with local wifi, fixed checkin station(s), and additional screens for LCO/RSO. The problems are not technical, they are logistical: associating a checkin with a pad (finding it in the list of launches in the queue), keeping portables charged, having backup hardware, remembering to mark a launch as complete - to free up the pad in the system, etc. QR codes are great but they are an additional complication. One other thing: You can't leave tablets laying on a checkin table, as they'll walk away. Oh, and I don't know how much range one can get from wifi outdoors...that could be a stumbling block.

I would expect that you actually get pretty good range from even a cheap wifi access point in most fields. With an external antenna you would likely cover the area from prep out to the pads themselves.

Going this route, there are two issues that I could easily anticipate in our fields:
The first and possibly easiest one is correlation of flier to card. For those with smartphones it doesn't seem hard. Simply give the flier a code that the RSO, Pad Manager, etc use to pull the right card up.

The second issue would be that if your not providing data fliers who otherwise have data on the field may not like losing connectivity. Or they might find connecting and disconnection a pain. The sad part of this is that small amounts of data are now really inexpensive. But how do you ensure that you are only providing data for checking whether, chat with friends and not some movie?

As far data backup, that is a small issue. And reality is that complete loss of all data would NOT be a killer issue except for a few that are either OCD or live on the spectrum.

Kirk

Could all be saved to one file on-site to be uploaded to a server (or the club officer's own PC) once at home. Backup could be a simple thumb drive.

I don't know about the hardware bit, but I would think the club would lean toward the flier's own cell phone if at all possible, reducing the number of system devices (that is, RSO, LCO, others the club designates necessary for operations) and their power requirements (I'd think the club would have a generator or two, at least, if considering this move in the first place).

Wifi outside... guess it depends on the wireless access point--but with wifi repeaters, you could expand your coverage area as needed.

As far as Wifi usage... well... data is the kicker, ain't it? If it's available, it will be used. Unless you block nearly the entire internet, someone on the flight line (or their bored girlfriend, or their kids, or guests, etc.,) will be streaming something off of Netflix, or watching some Youtube videos of cats knocking stuff over, sure as the sun rises in the east.

I think the club would have to decide if this is acceptable (and it may be, because "free wifi" is a spectacular perk for spectators), or prohibitively expensive.


Later!

--Coop

Is it really that hard to simply whitelist the flight data site, and block every other site? My dad did that on our home router one time to keep me only on school sites.

Been looking at Raspberry Pi for other things and now has me REALY thinking. It would be completely in realm of handling a web interface. (As would a number of other similar items such as the Beagle Bone.). One could possibly allow some other data access as well. But the possible ideas really jump out when the realization comes that you have a number of IO pins available.

Not saying it is trivial, but one could design an entire system of pad management. Down to the Pad manager assigning the rocket to the spot, and the system balking should continuity show up on the wrong place. This would of course be completely unnatural and violate some people's sensibility. But imagine if the paper were handled as take a picture of the slip and store it. (One must account for the paper bound rocketeer.)

At this point it is fun to kick a concept around. I pull out my phone and choose my rocket and engine. Prep it all and head to the line. The RSO glances and knows if this rocket has been seen before and any issues.

Next the pad manager sends me to a pad. Should I go to the wrong one, an alert is sent. They either change the assignment, or send me to move.

Now the LCO sees my rocket is in queue. He can glance and see the queue. The time comes and after countdown the button is pushed. If all is well, nothing more to do. But if it weathercocks, someone quickly notes this event. The current wind speed is captured.

Ne t time up, the RSO knows this rocket weather cocked with a given engine and wind speed.

At the end of the day, anyone interested can go to the club site and know how many launches there were. They can break it down by impulse. They can see how many people launched a rocket. Oh, and I know how many times a particular rocket in my fleet has launched. I know some can tell you now. (I can with a couple, but not all.)

Of course "all" that needs to happen is the system being built.

I officially present you the definition of over-engineering.