Re: High power certification

Does anyone know of an area near Winston Salem NC that I can get high power certified level 1

Hey there!

I am in Apex. I launch at 3 fields.

1. Bayboro, NC (Tripoli East NC).
ncrockets.org
We launch out in New Bern. We have a 16K waiver on a MASSIVE field. I have seen an N and heard of an O launched there before.

2. Butner, NC
ncrockets.org
We have a lower powered field up in Butner, near Durham. We can launch anything that does not require a waiver (so less than 3.3 pounds at launch, and less than 125 grams of propellant). Technically, you could get your L1 on this field. We have a launch next Saturday. Come and check us out.

3. Orangeburg, SC
rocketrysouthcarolina.org
Sod farm down in Orangeburg, SC. 10K waiver, lots of people.


These are the fields I have experience with. You may also want to look into Battle Park, VA. There is also ROCC, with the field in Charlotte. I have not flown there, but it may be closer for you.

Shoot me a PM if you want to know more about the Butner or Bayboro launches. CWbullet on here is the prefect of the SC club if you want more info on those.


Welcome aboard the crazy train we call TRF.

Closer to Winston is the Midlands field.

https://www.rocketrycarolina.org/

We welcome you on the field in Orangeburg. It is a good crowd. We have 12-13 launches a year - 6 NAR and 6 TRA.

blackbrandt said:

..........
2. Butner, NC
ncrockets.org
We have a lower powered field up in Butner, near Durham. We can launch anything that does not require a waiver (so less than 1 pound at launch, and less than 125 grams of propellant). Technically, you could get your L1 on this field. We have a launch next Saturday. Come and check us out.....

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Are you sure about 1 pound limit? A FAA Class 1 rocket does not need a waiver. Class 1 rockets can not exceed 1500 grams and can not contain more than 125 grams of propellant. There are several low H-impulse motors that have less than 125 grams of propellant so this is a case where you can launch a high power rocket without a FAA waiver so you could indeed certify L1 with a Class 1 rocket.

Bob

Matt, its 3.3# total weight, 125 grams total propellant weight. No waiver, but a notam is required if I understand right.

3.3 pounds. Yup. I keep on forgetting that #$%^& number.


Thanks for catching the error.

jimzcatz said:

Matt, its 3.3# total weight, 125 grams total propellant weight. No waiver, but a notam is required if I understand right.

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I don't believe the NOTAM is required. That is why the FAA lumped the Model Rocket and Large Model Rockets together in the Class 1 group. They didn't feel there was a need to deal with notifications and NOTAM for anything in that class.

jimzcatz said:

Matt, its 3.3# total weight, 125 grams total propellant weight. No waiver, but a notam is required if I understand right.

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No notam, or any contact with the FAA, is required for Class 1 rockets.

In the old day before the US came into compliance with the international rocketry standard, rockets above 1 pound and not exceeding 1500 grams and not containing more than 125 grams of propellant were classified as large model rockets. As such large model rockets required a call-in notification to the FAA and all airfields within 5 miles of the launch.

All this went away in 2009 when the FAA created the Class system and merged model rockets and larger model rockets into Class 1 rockets which require no notification or contact with the FAA.

Bob

Sorry to hijack the thread but I hope I can get a question answered here.

When it comes down to level 1 certification, can one purchase a motor casing and then purchase the reload on site? Or can one purchase both the reload and the casing online prior to the trip to the site?

You allowed to possess one motor for certification.

There's no restriction from purchasing motor casings, after all they are just pieces of aluminum. Certification is required to buy reloads or single use motors.

Phoenix1583 said:

Sorry to hijack the thread but I hope I can get a question answered here.

When it comes down to level 1 certification, can one purchase a motor casing and then purchase the reload on site? Or can one purchase both the reload and the casing online prior to the trip to the site?

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Most vendors will sell you one reload for certification. If you want two, they will want to see a copy of your NAR or TRA card showing your certification level. Give them a call and ask. That's the quickest and most accurate way to find out.

Handeman said:

Most vendors will sell you one reload for certification. If you want two, they will want to see a copy of your NAR or TRA card showing your certification level. Give them a call and ask. That's the quickest and most accurate way to find out.

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I have a question about this. I do have an L1 HPR cert, so I can legally buy and possess L1 motors. Are vendors required to ask for or verify that certification in any way before selling me an HPR motor? Is it a legal requirement, just customary, or what? The reason I ask is that I recently purchased some HPR motors online, and I was never asked anything about my certification. I won't say who the vendor was --- not looking to get anyone in trouble, and my purchase *is* legal. Just curious about how it is supposed to work.

I have a scan of my membership card, and e-mail it to the vendors, you got by somehow.

It's my understanding that since the law suit removed ATF regulation of APCP, it has been a "self regulating" hobby. The way I understand it, there is no federal law that says you can't buy HPR motors, but the vendors, in an effort to keep government regulation at bay, should only sell to certified individuals. The states that adapt NFPA code may have that restriction on their books. If the vendors start selling to anyone.... You know there is some politician that will try to gain ground by proposing regulations that "sale of dangerous rocket motors!" be stopped.

Are you sure you didn't buy from that vendor before? They may have known about your cert some way.

Handeman said:

It's my understanding that since the law suit removed ATF regulation of APCP, it has been a "self regulating" hobby. The way I understand it, there is no federal law that says you can't buy HPR motors, but the vendors, in an effort to keep government regulation at bay, should only sell to certified individuals. The states that adapt NFPA code may have that restriction on their books. If the vendors start selling to anyone.... You know there is some politician that will try to gain ground by proposing regulations that "sale of dangerous rocket motors!" be stopped.

Are you sure you didn't buy from that vendor before? They may have known about your cert some way.

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That was the first time with that vendor, it was online, and I've never met them in person. It didn't even occur to me until later that I hadn't been asked.

taiwanluthiers said:

There's no restriction from purchasing motor casings, after all they are just pieces of aluminum. Certification is required to buy reloads or single use motors.

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See, this is what's confusing me. The person above you said that I can purchase one full motor for certification but you're saying I can only purchase the motor casing and have to be certified to be able to purchase the reload. Which is it?

motor casings aren't motor, because it contains no active or flammable parts. It's likely to fly about as far as you can throw it.

Phoenix1583 said:

See, this is what's confusing me. The person above you said that I can purchase one full motor for certification but you're saying I can only purchase the motor casing and have to be certified to be able to purchase the reload. Which is it?

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Most vendors will sell you one reload as a certification motor. If you want more than one motor of that certification level, they want to see a copy of your NAR or TRA membership card with your certification level the first time you purchase. If you have questions, email, or better yet, call the vendor and ask.

Phoenix1583 said:

See, this is what's confusing me. The person above you said that I can purchase one full motor for certification but you're saying I can only purchase the motor casing and have to be certified to be able to purchase the reload. Which is it?

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For what you need to know, you're able to purchase any amount of casings you want in any size. Right now you may purchase and possess ONE H or I reload for purposes of a cert flight.


To others trying to split the shipping/ buying hairs: NFPA isn't coded into laws everywhere. Rocketry is regulated/self regulated/ governed by a patchwork of rules, laws, regulations enforced on so many different levels it's easy to lose track. Much of what restricts us is actually our own organization rules (which have the effect of keeping others off of us). But if the NFPA hasn't been put into law someplace, that opens up a lot of what can be done legally.

Phoenix1583 said:

See, this is what's confusing me. The person above you said that I can purchase one full motor for certification but you're saying I can only purchase the motor casing and have to be certified to be able to purchase the reload. Which is it?

Click to expand...

Handeman said:

Most vendors will sell you one reload as a certification motor. If you want more than one motor of that certification level, they want to see a copy of your NAR or TRA membership card with your certification level the first time you purchase. If you have questions, email, or better yet, call the vendor and ask.

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I've been confused about this topic myself but I've learned to live with it. Clearly, many folks have purchased their own high power motor for their certification flight and nobody has done any jail time or been fined as far as I know.

The NAR and NFPA are pretty clear on the subject ( I couldn't find any specific wording on www.tripoli.org):

"High Power rocket motors cannot be purchased over the counter by the general consumer and typically are not carried by your average hobby store. They can be mail-ordered or purchased at some launch sites by adult modelers who are High Power certified, which is a requirement to purchase and use them. "

https://www.nar.org/high-power-rocketry-info/


NFPA 1125 Manufacture of Model Rocket and High Power Rocket Motors

"8.5.1 A high power motor or motor reloading kit shall be sold and shipped to certified users only."

Maybe a motor vendor is different from a motor manufacturer in the application of this rule. Maybe vendors keep track of where NFPA doesn't apply.



So we have the rules and we have reality. My advice is to talk to the high power flyers at the local club where you intend do your certification flight. Find out if they have an onsite motor vendor. If they do great, arrange for purchase on the field, using someone on your cert team as the agent for the transaction. That's how I got my level 1 done. If they don't have a local vendor then they typically make a club order to share hazmat costs; again, make arrangements to get your motor in that order. Then you can add your triumphant certification flight post here !

https://www.siriusrocketry.biz/ishop/pages/high-power-motors-and-reload-kits-ordering-info-16.html

Claims 1 HPR load may be purchased for a certification. Everyone I know has done this.

Yep. Sirius and other reputable vendors offer these "certification specials". If no local or group order option had been available I might have gone that route. Shared orders to spread the hazmat cost is always a good thing. If the person placing the order is certified, win-win !

I think Cesaroni offers certification specials. Buy one HPR reload and get the case for free...

samb said:

So we have the rules and we have reality. My advice is to talk to the high power flyers at the local club where you intend do your certification flight. Find out if they have an onsite motor vendor. If they do great, arrange for purchase on the field, using someone on your cert team as the agent for the transaction. That's how I got my level 1 done. If they don't have a local vendor then they typically make a club order to share hazmat costs; again, make arrangements to get your motor in that order. Then you can add your triumphant certification flight post here !

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Definitely the best situation is if you have an onsite vendor and can arrange to pick up the motor right there at the cert launch. That's what I did and it worked great. After the flight, I went straight back to the trailer and bought another HPR motor for a victory lap!

If you order the cert motor online, and you can't get anyone to combine orders with yours, you are basically going to pay double for the motor. My onsite vendor charged $29 plus tax for a single-use H115DM, and if I had needed it shipped, it would have been another $28.50. That's a hefty charge for just one motor, and what if the flight fails?

ThirstyBarbarian said:

If you order the cert motor online, and you can't get anyone to combine orders with yours, you are basically going to pay double for the motor. My onsite vendor charged $29 plus tax for a single-use H115DM, and if I had needed it shipped, it would have been another $28.50. That's a hefty charge for just one motor, and what if the flight fails?

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Good excuse to toss in some haz-mat single use G's, F reloads, etc....

ThirstyBarbarian said:

...
If you order the cert motor online, and you can't get anyone to combine orders with yours, you are basically going to pay double for the motor....

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Not completely true.

This is where it pays to understand all the rules, and know how things work.

Aerotech H128W, H238T, H165R, H180W, H220T, H210R, H250G, H268R, and I200W Reloads all ship USPS *without* any hazmat fee.

https://www.aerotech-rocketry.com/u...-bb17-47f1d7963824_usps_shippable_2-23-10.pdf

Also Loki 38mm H/I reloads ship without hazmat too (except for the I110 and I430)

Phoenix1583 said:

See, this is what's confusing me. The person above you said that I can purchase one full motor for certification but you're saying I can only purchase the motor casing and have to be certified to be able to purchase the reload. Which is it?

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Sorry, we started having multiple conversations here, and frankly it can be confusing for the experienced as well!

ThirstyBarbarian was talking about a vendor failing to check, exactly like a store failing to card you for beer. Probably an innocent oversight, or they previously had reason to believe he was proper for the sale.

Talk of casings is related but casings are simple metal items and unregulated. To make that part confusing, sometimes people use the term "motor" to reference a complete hardware set that is ready for reload, as opposed to the casing alone, which many people buy because they previously had related hardware of similar size. Better would be "motor hardware" or "complete motor hardware" but habits can be hard to change.

The official rules for purchasing motors is that you must be certified for their power level, or, you if you are purchasing a single motor, it can be of one power level higher than your certification. You then use that motor for the certification attempt. Note that you can buy many other items while purchasing a certification attempt motor. For example it is common to buy a ton of L1 motors to go along with a single L2 one in order to save on HAZMAT and shipping.