Hazmat Expensive

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Chunker78

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Is there any way to get single use 29mm motors without the expensive hazmat charge? I understand why they charge. I just don't get why it's so expensive.
 
The only way to avoid it is to buy at launch meets where a dealer is present. There are some DMS motors that do not require HAZMAT. And if you step up to RMS, many reloads require no HAZMAT because the grains are split into separate pieces.
 
I'm not a 100% but I think the rule is more than 30 grams of propellant requires hazmat shipping.
 
Chunker, do you have a local source for motors ? For example the HobbyTown near me has a selection of Aerotech 24mm and 29mm single use and reloads. Hobby Lobby has the cheapest selection of Estes BP with their 40% coupons. Some NAR and Tripoli clubs have vendors onsite at their launches. Otherwise, there is no legal way to beat HAZMAT on motors that are shipped in the U.S. The Department of Transportation sets the price and the propellent weight limits.

{edit} Come to think of it it may be the shipping companies that set the price. Point is, it's a cost you can't avoid on applicable motors .
 
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The Econojet single-use F motors do not require hazmat shipping. They cost about $28 at Hobbylinc for a 2-pack, and they come in 4 different propellant types. They work well in Estes PSII kits. I fly a lot of these specifically because they do not require hazmat. If you are just getting started with composite motors, that's a great place to start.

Otherwise, buy from a vendor at a club launch. Or buy in bulk. Buyrocketmotors.com has a great price on G40 motors which are great motors. Buy a dozen and the hazmat is only a couple bucks per motor. It's a big hit to buy so many at once, but you save money compred to buying them just a few at a time.
 
The short answer is yes, but your selection would be limited to the Aerotech "Loadable Motor System" or simply LMS. There are three G's available, take a look here: https://www.buyrocketmotors.com/no-hazmat-eligible/ All of these would have to ship USPS Parcel Post which can a bit longer than most people may be accustomed to; but there's no HAZMAT fee to worry about.

They do require assembly but it's easy, and they're G impulse and single use which is what you're looking for. Take a look at the RMS reloads as well, there's quite a few composite motors that can be shipped without a HAZMAT fee.

Regarding DMS motors, all require HAZMAT. And yes, I'm certain the carriers set the cost for HAZMAT. I daydream about this eventually going away.....:)
 
Just curious- does anyone know what our 28.50 actually pays for? Is it just for the plaque on the side of the truck?

Nate
 
The short answer is yes, but your selection would be limited to the Aerotech "Loadable Motor System" or simply LMS. There are three G's available, take a look here: https://www.buyrocketmotors.com/no-hazmat-eligible/ All of these would have to ship USPS Parcel Post which can a bit longer than most people may be accustomed to; but there's no HAZMAT fee to worry about.

They do require assembly but it's easy, and they're G impulse and single use which is what you're looking for. Take a look at the RMS reloads as well, there's quite a few composite motors that can be shipped without a HAZMAT fee.

Regarding DMS motors, all require HAZMAT. And yes, I'm certain the carriers set the cost for HAZMAT. I daydream about this eventually going away.....:)

Woops. I got DMS and LMS mixed up. Oh, well, I'm a CTI guy....
 
Just curious- does anyone know what our 28.50 actually pays for? Is it just for the plaque on the side of the truck?

Nate

This is a GUESS, but I think there is an extra amount of paperwork that needs to be filed, and probably restrictions on what kind of vehicle it can travel in, where it can go (like maybe they have to avoid tunnels or bridges), and what else can be in the truck.
 
This is a GUESS, but I think there is an extra amount of paperwork that needs to be filed, and probably restrictions on what kind of vehicle it can travel in, where it can go (like maybe they have to avoid tunnels or bridges), and what else can be in the truck.

That makes sense- I wouldn't be surprised if that's at least part of it.

Nate
 
Is there any way to get single use 29mm motors without the expensive hazmat charge? I understand why they charge. I just don't get why it's so expensive.




For the most part GREED. It does cost more to ship hazmat, but not that much. Does not make much sense in our case, you can ship 25 lbs. of small chunks in one box without hazmat but as soon as those chunks weight more than 30 grams, same stuff , you pay hazmat even if the box only weighs 1 lb.
 
This is a GUESS, but I think there is an extra amount of paperwork that needs to be filed, and probably restrictions on what kind of vehicle it can travel in, where it can go (like maybe they have to avoid tunnels or bridges), and what else can be in the truck.

It may also require a specially trained driver. And it may also cause other logistical costs, like partially-filled trucks as opposed to completely full ones. Anytime you make an exception to a system that relies on large scale and efficiency, it's going to cost.
 
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For the most part GREED. It does cost more to ship hazmat, but not that much. Does not make much sense in our case, you can ship 25 lbs. of small chunks in one box without hazmat but as soon as those chunks weight more than 30 grams, same stuff , you pay hazmat even if the box only weighs 1 lb.

Also isn't the risk higher if there was 500 reloads of D sized motor vs 1 J reload?

It seems like a bad system to us, because we are mostly wanting to ship small items that are not very hazardous compared to other larger and more hazardous items that ship for the same fee. But can you imagine how complicated and costly it would be to try to assess the risk of each shipment separately and charge on some kind of sliding scale? The flat rate probably makes sense for anyone shipping larger hazardous items.
 
Hazmat fees are established by the common carriers, and they receive the money. They represent the additional costs associated with special handling of hazardous materials in interstate and in some cases intrastate shipping by common carriers. The actual 'special handling' required varies greatly depending on the materials and source/route/destination of the shipment as different states and municipalities have different regulations regarding notification, routing and packaging both in transit and storage between shipments.

This may help people understand the fees, the claimed additional cost are things like having to put freight on a second trailer, therefore sending two loads to the same location because two item that could have been in the same trailer based on size are incompatible on the haz loading chart i.e.: food and poison items, flammables and oxidizers, etc, that can add several hundred dollars to the shipping cost of one item, if they just charge X dollars per hazmat shipment they can spread that cost out so that it evens out over time.
 
I read back in the day before they had any regulations people could just transport crates of dynamite on loose wagons... obviously it was a bad idea especially when the driver has no idea what's in it and goes and smoke around them. The regulations are necessary, but because of their system, there's no way they can make exceptions for a small amount of rocket motors unless someone up there decided what the exceptions were. Obviously as of now it's motors with less than 30g per grain.
 
I've given this some thought as well. "HAZMAT" is known as Dangerous Goods to the carriers. The carriers have dedicated departments to handle HAZMAT Q&A, dedicated inspectors; a wave of paperwork that must be maintained, documented, and archived; monitoring of total weights of DG's being transported in a single truck with the prospect that various packages may have to be divided amongst trailers, trucks, etc. to avoid triggering further DOT requirements, etc. It all adds up in overhead and man hours. Whether this translates to $28.50 per package is hard to say; and there's not a heck of a lot competition out there, so....
 
[/U]For the most part GREED. It does cost more to ship hazmat, but not that much. Does not make much sense in our case, you can ship 25 lbs. of small chunks in one box without hazmat but as soon as those chunks weight more than 30 grams, same stuff , you pay hazmat even if the box only weighs 1 lb.
It has nothing to do with greed. It has everything to do with paying for the cost to insure that all shipments the carrier accepts and transports are in compliance with the DOT and IATA regulations for shipping hazardous materials, as the common carriers are assessed very steep fines and penalties if they are found to be out of compliance by DOT or FAA inspectors.

All hazmat shipments must have proper documentation, packaging, labeling and marking as specified in the DOT or IATA hazmat shipping regulations. The pickup driver must check each hazmat item for proper packaging, labeling and marking, and will sign 2 bills of lading, one for the company records and one for your records. He may have to placard his truck if required. Once the local pickup truck arrives at the local shipping terminal, an incoming inspector checks each article for proper documentation, packaging, marking, and labeling against a 1 page checklist. If it fails any item on the check list, it is rejected and put aside for assessment to determine if it can be relabeled and returned to the shipper under a DOT Special Permit, or whether it must be held for DOT inspection or hazmat disposal. If it passes it moves to sorting area where the hazmat compatibilities are determined and then grouped and assigned to specific trailers. If a trailer has more than a certain quantity of hazardous material, they must be placarded. This sorting procedure is repeated every time the trailer arrives at a terminal until it arrives at it's destination terminal. It is then sorted and assigned to a local delivery truck and delivered to the recipient where a delivery signature is normally required. All hazmat paperwork must be kept for approximately 2 years after the shipment by federal regulations, and these regulation apply to the shipper, the transport company and usually the recipient.

It doesn't matter if the hazmat shipment unit weighs 1 pound or 1 ton. The procedures are the same, so that's why everyone gets charged the same basic hazmat fee for a given common carrier. Whether you buy one g-motor, or a pallet of J-motor reloads you will pay the same hazmat fee. If you buy some L3 reloads you may have to pay extra fees for an exclusive truck to comply other transportation requirements, but that's not a hazmat fee.

Bob
 
I have flown lots of 29mm single use motors and never paid hazmat. most vendors can tell you which ones ship without hazmat but buyrocketmotors.com makes it very clear what motors you can get without hazmat.
 
It's a little long... but interesting right to the end.

This is what happens when HAZMAT shipping goes wrong!

[YOUTUBE]m6ZXOLbFD6M[/YOUTUBE]
 
Our local club vendor says that when his current supply of 24 mm Estes BP E-motors sells out, he is done with them. I priced 24 mm Estes BP E-motors at Apogee in December and I was astounded by the total cost. As I recall Wildman was better, but it was still high. As others have stated it is probably a good idea to check Hobby Lobby. I think we have a hobby shop about 1 and 1/2 hours away that is reasonable, also
 
It has nothing to do with greed. It has everything to do with paying for the cost to insure that all shipments the carrier accepts and transports are in compliance with the DOT and IATA regulations for shipping hazardous materials, as the common carriers are assessed very steep fines and penalties if they are found to be out of compliance by DOT or FAA inspectors.

All hazmat shipments must have proper documentation, packaging, labeling and marking as specified in the DOT or IATA hazmat shipping regulations. The pickup driver must check each hazmat item for proper packaging, labeling and marking, and will sign 2 bills of lading, one for the company records and one for your records. He may have to placard his truck if required. Once the local pickup truck arrives at the local shipping terminal, an incoming inspector checks each article for proper documentation, packaging, marking, and labeling against a 1 page checklist. If it fails any item on the check list, it is rejected and put aside for assessment to determine if it can be relabeled and returned to the shipper under a DOT Special Permit, or whether it must be held for DOT inspection or hazmat disposal. If it passes it moves to sorting area where the hazmat compatibilities are determined and then grouped and assigned to specific trailers. If a trailer has more than a certain quantity of hazardous material, they must be placarded. This sorting procedure is repeated every time the trailer arrives at a terminal until it arrives at it's destination terminal. It is then sorted and assigned to a local delivery truck and delivered to the recipient where a delivery signature is normally required. All hazmat paperwork must be kept for approximately 2 years after the shipment by federal regulations, and these regulation apply to the shipper, the transport company and usually the recipient.

It doesn't matter if the hazmat shipment unit weighs 1 pound or 1 ton. The procedures are the same, so that's why everyone gets charged the same basic hazmat fee for a given common carrier. Whether you buy one g-motor, or a pallet of J-motor reloads you will pay the same hazmat fee. If you buy some L3 reloads you may have to pay extra fees for an exclusive truck to comply other transportation requirements, but that's not a hazmat fee.

Bob




Other than the initial pick up and inspection at the first terminal everything should be automated just the same as any other package right?? Other than having a longer paper trail, sorting and assigning to a truck is automated just like any other package right?? Or are all hazmat packages manually handled?? This I ask because I have no idea. All I know is that hazmat fees have gone up over 550% in 25 years. We have to pay this on top of the regular shipping price.

Just me, I believe that $28.50 is way more than actual cost to the companies. Like mentioned ,not much competition, so they can charge as much as they want.
 
Other than the initial pick up and inspection at the first terminal everything should be automated just the same as any other package right?? Other than having a longer paper trail, sorting and assigning to a truck is automated just like any other package right?? Or are all hazmat packages manually handled?? This I ask because I have no idea. All I know is that hazmat fees have gone up over 550% in 25 years. We have to pay this on top of the regular shipping price.

Just me, I believe that $28.50 is way more than actual cost to the companies. Like mentioned ,not much competition, so they can charge as much as they want.

So you're saying Hazmat fees used to only be $2.71 in 1989?

Also, something not mentioned. Hazmat is handled by hand, and not only does it have to be separated from non-Hazmat, depending on what it is, they may have to be separated from each other. Which means a shipping container like what is used on an aircraft is specially built for fire suppression, and only carries Hazmat. You could literally have a 1x1x1 foot box and NOTHING else in a Hazmat shipping container. All that empty space that could be used to ship something (which is why you get charged based on weight AND volume)...can't be because of the Hazmat restrictions.

In addition, shippers have insurance...and higher insurance rates because they carry Hazmat. They could probably charge less if they didn't have to carry Hazmat insurance. But they do, so they charge.

If there was only one large shipping company, I'd say you would have a case for the 'not much competition'. But there are at least 3 companies (in the US) with worldwide reach...yet they all charge a significant amount for Hazmat. You think one or two wouldn't be happy cutting their Hazmat rates if they could if it meant getting a significantly larger piece of the pie?

Yet they don't. Quite frankly, if it wasn't for the fact shipping Hazmat is a significant chunk of business, I know my shipping company wouldn't bother because it is a pain to segregate it out with all the additional restrictions. Undeclared Hazmat was a factor in at least one hull loss for my company, and possibility two hull losses for UPS.

FC
 
So you're saying Hazmat fees used to only be $2.71 in 1989?

Also, something not mentioned. Hazmat is handled by hand, and not only does it have to be separated from non-Hazmat, depending on what it is, they may have to be separated from each other. Which means a shipping container like what is used on an aircraft is specially built for fire suppression, and only carries Hazmat. You could literally have a 1x1x1 foot box and NOTHING else in a Hazmat shipping container. All that empty space that could be used to ship something (which is why you get charged based on weight AND volume)...can't be because of the Hazmat restrictions.

In addition, shippers have insurance...and higher insurance rates because they carry Hazmat. They could probably charge less if they didn't have to carry Hazmat insurance. But they do, so they charge.

If there was only one large shipping company, I'd say you would have a case for the 'not much competition'. But there are at least 3 companies (in the US) with worldwide reach...yet they all charge a significant amount for Hazmat. You think one or two wouldn't be happy cutting their Hazmat rates if they could if it meant getting a significantly larger piece of the pie?

Yet they don't. Quite frankly, if it wasn't for the fact shipping Hazmat is a significant chunk of business, I know my shipping company wouldn't bother because it is a pain to segregate it out with all the additional restrictions. Undeclared Hazmat was a factor in at least one hull loss for my company, and possibility two hull losses for UPS.

FC



Hazmat fees in 1990 were $5.00 In my first calc, did it in my head, included original $5.00 in percent increase, mistake! Any way correct increase is 470%, $5.00 to $28.50. In my 1997 catalogs from Magnum, Countdown Hobbies, Zepplin, etc. Hazmat was at $10.00. In between 1997 and now, no idea when and how much more they added at a time. And the three major carriers are not going to undercut each other, lots of profit to be made at $28.50.
 
Other than the initial pick up and inspection at the first terminal everything should be automated just the same as any other package right?? Other than having a longer paper trail, sorting and assigning to a truck is automated just like any other package right?? Or are all hazmat packages manually handled?? This I ask because I have no idea. All I know is that hazmat fees have gone up over 550% in 25 years. We have to pay this on top of the regular shipping price.

Just me, I believe that $28.50 is way more than actual cost to the companies. Like mentioned ,not much competition, so they can charge as much as they want.
Nope, any time the trailer gets unloaded(at terminals) the hazmat boxes have to be hand moved. They cannot ride the belt. They have t be at the back of the trailers, blocked and braced to prevent movement. The center has to pull hazmat coupons at each change of driver. When I was at UPS, our hazmat guy spent about 15min per box verifying everything on the paperwork. If any errors get missed, the guy who signed it as ok can get fired....
 
Other than the initial pick up and inspection at the first terminal everything should be automated just the same as any other package right?? Other than having a longer paper trail, sorting and assigning to a truck is automated just like any other package right?? Or are all hazmat packages manually handled?? This I ask because I have no idea. All I know is that hazmat fees have gone up over 550% in 25 years. We have to pay this on top of the regular shipping price.

Just me, I believe that $28.50 is way more than actual cost to the companies. Like mentioned ,not much competition, so they can charge as much as they want.
Hazmat tracking is automated with bar code scanners, but Hazmat processing is hands-on, in all parts of the transportation process. I doubt anyone involved in the handling chain is paid minimum wage as Hazmat handlers are security screened and have special training and certifications, so I'd guess most inspectors and sorting workers are getting at least $15 per hour and drivers get $25 per hour.

Labor multipliers for businesses are typically 2.7 to 3.2 time their hourly wage. (That represent the administrative cost of having that employee work for you, vacation and holiday pay, social security tax, insurance costs, retirement contributions and other benefits, overhead, equipment and training costs, etc.) Dividing that $28.50 hazmat fee by the cost multiplier says that Hazmat fee generates $9.00 to $10.50 for direct labor handling wages. If the average labor pay rate is $20 per hour, the fee pays for ~1/2 man-hour additional labor per hazmat shipment. When you consider the extra hands that have to manually handle the packages and process the paperwork, it seems reasonable based on my 15 years of experience with hazmat shipments.

Bob
 
Our local club vendor says that when his current supply of 24 mm Estes BP E-motors sells out, he is done with them. I priced 24 mm Estes BP E-motors at Apogee in December and I was astounded by the total cost. As I recall Wildman was better, but it was still high. As others have stated it is probably a good idea to check Hobby Lobby. I think we have a hobby shop about 1 and 1/2 hours away that is reasonable, also

That's exactly why I went with reloadable motors for 24mm. Hobby Lobby is reasonable because you can use the 40% coupon, but then they only stock E9s. The only remaining LHS that stocks model rocket items at all is near MSRP with their pricing, and again, only has E9s in stock. So instead of having to get someone to special order something for me (I had them special order some A10-0s, they never called me when they came in, but I went there today and guess what was hanging on the wall?) I just went with A-T Hobbyline. No Hazmat, and plenty of loads to choose from.
 
[/U]


For the most part GREED. It does cost more to ship hazmat, but not that much. Does not make much sense in our case, you can ship 25 lbs. of small chunks in one box without hazmat but as soon as those chunks weight more than 30 grams, same stuff , you pay hazmat even if the box only weighs 1 lb.

I worked for a Fortune 100 company and special handling for anything was a killer. At one time I processed warranty claims for aircraft components. We would get labor claims from airlines for 1 or 2 hours of labor to remove and install a replacement part. We had to pay about $60.00 an hour for labor. Our Finance people estimated it cost us $250 to cut each check. So we would cut checks for $60 and the total cost to us was over $300 because of all the handling. I processed the claim and generated the internal paperwork. I handed it off to Finance who reviewed it, approved it and entered it into a database. Then it went to the head of Finance who reviewed it, approved it and gave it back to me. I scanned it with all the supporting documentation and emailed it to corporate Finance. Corporate Finance entered the approved check request into the check generation software and every two weeks they cranked out checks and mailed them to customers. Most of the handling was to prevent fraud. Eventually we switched to a system where each claim reviewer issued credits through a computer system. I could issue up to $10,000 per request with no one else reviewing the request.

So my point with the above is that special handling just drives the cost way up for big corporations. I dealt with UPS and FedEx and tons of other large corporations. They seemed similar to the place I worked so I would estimate it easily cost them hundreds of thousands to develop the processes and IT systems to deal with hazmat orders. And that does not include the cost to actually process each order and make sure it is handled properly. While $28.50 is a chunk of change to you and me, I would be surprised if they make much profit on that money. It likely barely covers their cost.
 
First off, thanks guys for the input. This is not about me at all, I'm fortunate to have several vendors nearby that if I wish can avoid Hazmat fees. That being said it is hard to avoid those Black Sat. sales!! When I buy anything that requires Hazmat I buy big time, and with a friends order also. There are several ways to make the fee more reasonable. I feel for guys like the OP that would like some motors, don't have a choice other than having them shipped. And yes there are alternatives to get the same impulse motors to avoid the fee, but they are alternatives. New guys may want single use to start out, and not invest in hardware/ reloads right away. I like single use to complement my reloads.

I never thought about the Hazmat fees this much until I seen this thread. I had some time to kill so I thought I'd look into it a bit. The more I learned about it the more I thought we are getting screwed. Hazmat handling was pretty "loose" until 1990 when they, Transportation secretary, DOT put the "clampers down." That is when they ushered in the regs. we see today. 9-11 did not change much other than back round checks.

So in 1990 the hazmat fee was $5.00, carriers must of not lost any money at that time. So since then the fee was raised 470% to $28.50. Either way screwed or not, can't do anything about it, glad it is available when we need it!!
 
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