Too large a launch lug?

lcorinth · Jan 22, 2015

A while back, I ordered a bunch of spare parts - I'd just started scratch building, and I also wanted replacement parts in case I got a kit that was missing something.

I ordered a bunch of 3/16 inch launch lugs as well as 1/4 inch (have since decided that rail buttons are probably the way I'll go when I get up to those larger rockets).

I was going through my parts today, and realized that all the lugs I got were the same size - really big. I measured the inside diameters, and they're all just over 1/4 inch.

I'm wondering if this could be a problem. I only have a 3/16 inch launch rod (and a 1/8 inch). I'm building an Estes Cosmic Explorer with an E motor upgrade, so I feel like using the 1/8 inch lug that came with the kit might not be the best idea - my understanding is that with an E motor, you should use a thicker rod.

However, if I use a 1/4 inch lug on a 3/16 inch rod, I'm worried it might bind up. Perhaps not on this rocket, if I use a longer piece of launch lug - I launched the Apogee Aspire on a 3/16 inch rod, and it has that size lug, but it's a longer piece.

However, I finished a rocket a few weeks ago that launches with a D and an E (two stage), and I used what I thought was a 3/16 inch lug. This piece is much shorter - about an inch and a half, and has a half-inch standoff. I just slid it down over the launch rod, and it had so much wiggle room - so now I'm afraid to launch it.

Anybody have any advice on this? Is too large a lug a bad idea? Has anybody witnessed a lug binding a rod because of this? The lug is straight - I'm not worried about that. I'm just not sure if I'm going to have to scrap this rocket - or do some kind of modification.

And what about that Cosmic Explorer - will a longer piece of 1/4 inch lug be OK? Will a 1/8 inch rod survive an E motor launch?

Thanks!

blackbrandt · Jan 22, 2015

Truthfully... go to Lowes, and pick up a 1/4" x 6' stainless steel launch rod. It will set you back a few bucks. i got one a few years ago, and I love it. I build a little plywood launch pad for it. I have never used my 3/16" rods though. I use 1/8 for everything up to a C. I go up to a 1/4 inch rod for everything up to an F. Everything above that gets rail buttons.

lcorinth · Jan 22, 2015

blackbrandt said:
Truthfully... go to Lowes, and pick up a 1/4" x 6' stainless steel launch rod. It will set you back a few bucks. i got one a few years ago, and I love it. I build a little plywood launch pad for it. I have never used my 3/16" rods though. I use 1/8 for everything up to a C. I go up to a 1/4 inch rod for everything up to an F. Everything above that gets rail buttons.

That's actually where I got my previous rods. I have the Odd'l Rockets Adeptor, which takes up to a 3/16", so that's why I was planning on not going any higher with the rod sizes.

But maybe to be on the safe side with this scratch build, I should just do that and build a pad with some wood, as you suggest. I'd hate to see the rocket struggle to get off the pad because the lug is too loose...

blackbrandt · Jan 22, 2015

I just took 2 pieces of 2x6. Cut each piece about 30 inches or so long, and then screw them together at 90* angles to each other. Now, take a small piece of 2x6, and screw it under the end of the upper board. I'll get some pics tomorrow if you want. I built the entire pad for about $15.

luke strawwalker · Jan 22, 2015

An oversize lug isn't USUALLY a problem, but on a long standoff or something it potentially *could* be if the lug is short and the rocket tilts over enough to bind the lug against the rod on opposite sides and ends of the lug. If you're using two short lengths of lug spaced well apart, it shouldn't be a problem.

I typically use reinforced soda straws for lugs, which are quite a bit larger (thanks to the "thick shake fat straws most places use now) than the 1/8 rod I typically use for my rockets. It hasn't been a problem. I typically cut my launch lugs in half at about a 45 degree angle, and then cut the back end to a slight angle, to make them look better and be more aerodynamic on the rocket once assembled. Using two shorter lengths of lug spaced well apart on the rocket works better than one long lug IMHO (except perhaps on small rockets, like competition rockets).

Later and good luck! OL JR

tmacklin · Jan 22, 2015

I think as long as your lug (or lugs) are perfectly on line with each other as well as the body tube, everything will be fine even if there is an excess of slack. The larger the diameter the rod is, the stiffer it will be and thus can be longer. This is especially beneficial when you have a heavier rocket that typically presents a greater surface area to the wind, putting more lateral stress as well as friction upon the lugs. Personally I like two lugs on any rocket weighing more than about 8 ounces or so, one just above the center of gravity and one down low if not right at the bottom of the body tube. Otherwise, I like one longer lug centered dead at the CG of a fully loaded rocket. And I hate windy days!

Gary Byrum · Jan 22, 2015

Micromeister · Jan 23, 2015

lcorinth said:
That's actually where I got my previous rods. I have the Odd'l Rockets Adeptor, which takes up to a 3/16", so that's why I was planning on not going any higher with the rod sizes.

But maybe to be on the safe side with this scratch build, I should just do that and build a pad with some wood, as you suggest. I'd hate to see the rocket struggle to get off the pad because the lug is too loose...

Daniel:
Unless your using a single short Launch Lug either 3/16" or 1/4" will be fine flying from a 3/16" rod. I would however suggest the purchase of a 1/4" x 72" Stainless steel Launch Rod for all your Larger models. It's just a better Idea the 3/16".
Or skip the 1/4" rod in favor of the standard 1010 (1" slotted) rail. It's pretty easy to construct a simple pad to handle the extra weight and windload of the Rail.

lcorinth · Jan 23, 2015

Micromeister said:
Daniel:
Unless your using a single short Launch Lug either 3/16" or 1/4" will be fine flying from a 3/16" rod. I would however suggest the purchase of a 1/4" x 72" Stainless steel Launch Rod for all your Larger models. It's just a better Idea the 3/16".
Or skip the 1/4" rod in favor of the standard 1010 (1" slotted) rail. It's pretty easy to construct a simple pad to handle the extra weight and windload of the Rail.

I'm planning on making a rail a project really soon. I've got some Estes PSII's to build, and I think I want to put buttons on those.

One rocket I'm building now, though, I'm not sure. It's a Quest Big Dog - it has a 29mm mount, but only a 3/16 inch lug. A 3/16 inch rod sounds kind of flimsy for an F or G motor, so I'm stealing that lug for the Cosmic Explorer E upgrade, and I have yet to decide whether to put a 1/4 inch lug on the Big Dog or try buttons.

Problem is, it's got a 1.97 inch airframe, and fiber rings, so I don't know how I'd reinforce the buttons. I can't get my hands in there to install any wood backing. I've been told I could just screw them into the paper airframe, but I'm worried they'll start to come loose after a few flights. I am considering putting something on the outside - like maybe very short balsa standoffs - not enough to really qualify as a "standoff", but just something to screw into.

I've never installed buttons before. I'm still not entirely sure how to do it, but I have been doing some googling on the matter. I've heard about t-nuts and things, but I still don't know enough details to confidently start the build. A lug on the Big Dog might just be easier.

Micromeister · Jan 24, 2015

lcorinth said:
I'm planning on making a rail a project really soon. I've got some Estes PSII's to build, and I think I want to put buttons on those.
Problem is, it's got a 1.97 inch airframe, and fiber rings, so I don't know how I'd reinforce the buttons. I can't get my hands in there to install any wood backing. I've been told I could just screw them into the paper airframe, but I'm worried they'll start to come loose after a few flights. I am considering putting something on the outside - like maybe very short balsa standoffs - not enough to really qualify as a "standoff", but just something to screw into.

I've never installed buttons before. I'm still not entirely sure how to do it, but I have been doing some googling on the matter. I've heard about t-nuts and things, but I still don't know enough details to confidently start the build. A lug on the Big Dog might just be easier.

I hear Ya Daniel:
I've been playing around the standard, Mini and Micro rail buttons since last summer. Randy over at www.railbuttons.com has buttons to fit the standard 1010 rails, 20mm mini rails and micro buttons for 10mm rails.

I've had the same delima on a few models where it's just not possible to get in there to install a small back up piece of Ply or what-have-you.
a trick I leaned recently is to drill and tap your cardboard body tube then wick-in Thin CA. Allow to completely dry (without accelerator) Then re-tap the hole for your button screw.
So far it's worked just fine on motors up to BP F's and clustered D and E's.

On a related note not trying to hijack the thread: Several of us have been experimenting with these new Mini and Micro Rail buttons and Various rails to see just where the failure motor size would be.
I'm very please to say: I've had a number of BP D12, E9 and E12 models flying from a 10mm square x 1500mm (about 59.5") Micro Rail with zero whip and dead-on straight flights in breezes to 20mph. The tiny rail buttons come with nylon attachment screw which I replaced with 2-56 Stainless steel pan head Machine screws for these higher thrust tests. Below is a couple photos of these tiny Micro Buttons and 10mm Makerbeam rail and 4-40 MS mini rail buttons that fit the 8020 20mm x 48" mini rails. If your looking at flying in these thurst ranges I wouldn't balk at flying just about everything from the Micro 10mm Makerbeam rail available thought Amazon.com.

These smaller surface area rails require less of a launcher base to remain stable even in higher surface winds

I've started using these Micro and Mini rail buttons on all my model builds for T3 (.375") Micro bodies to all models up to BT-101

Hope this helps a little: You can read all about the testing and results on the LPR forum thread.

1010 Rail-c_Install Threaded .25in St.Stl. Pin_11-02-13.JPG

lcorinth · Jan 24, 2015

Micromeister said:
I hear Ya Daniel:
I've been playing around the standard, Mini and Micro rail buttons since last summer. Randy over at www.railbuttons.com has buttons to fit the standard 1010 rails, 20mm mini rails and micro buttons for 10mm rails.

I've had the same delima on a few models where it's just not possible to get in there to install a small back up piece of Ply or what-have-you.
a trick I leaned recently is to drill and tap your cardboard body tube then wick-in Thin CA. Allow to completely dry (without accelerator) Then re-tap the hole for your button screw.
So far it's worked just fine on motors up to BP F's and clustered D and E's.

On a related note not trying to hijack the thread: Several of us have been experimenting with these new Mini and Micro Rail buttons and Various rails to see just where the failure motor size would be.
I'm very please to say: I've had a number of BP D12, E9 and E12 models flying from a 10mm square x 1500mm (about 59.5") Micro Rail with zero whip and dead-on straight flights in breezes to 20mph. The tiny rail buttons come with nylon attachment screw which I replaced with 2-56 Stainless steel pan head Machine screws for these higher thrust tests. Below is a couple photos of these tiny Micro Buttons and 10mm Makerbeam rail and 4-40 MS mini rail buttons that fit the 8020 20mm x 48" mini rails. If your looking at flying in these thurst ranges I wouldn't balk at flying just about everything from the Micro 10mm Makerbeam rail available thought Amazon.com.

These smaller surface area rails require less of a launcher base to remain stable even in higher surface winds
I've started using these Micro and Mini rail buttons on all my model builds for T3 (.375") Micro bodies to all models up to BT-101
Hope this helps a little: You can read all about the testing and results on the LPR forum thread.

Funny you should mention that. I've also been considering using the mini buttons for the metric rails on my Big Dog and PSII's. I actually have a lot of questions about all this stuff, but I want to be clear and succinct when I ask (so as not to repeat questions which are asked over and over again), and need to do some searching on TRF to see if there's already a thread I should attach my questions to.

How do you like the mini buttons? How heavy a rocket or powerful a motor would you say they could hold? And the micro buttons? I like the idea of smaller (mini) for rockets that aren't too big for them, and a nice little (micro) rail sounds attractive to me instead of rods for LPR rockets. I can't say why - it just sounds like it would be a sturdier option to me. But smaller external bits always seem better to me for some reason - maybe just cosmetic.

Might as well ask a couple more questions here since I've started - I don't have a club (the nearest one to me is about an hour and a half away). I might start one, but there's also a possibility that I'll move next fall to a place with a club, and I could join that (we're not moving because of rockets, but I've already googled local clubs in the area). My understanding is that few clubs use micro or mini rails. But, if I built my own, do most clubs welcome people bringing their own pads?

And lastly - thanks for the rail pictures - I suspected that was a way they could be mounted. Question is, what do you mount the rod on? I have plans for a launch pad which uses a drill chuck - would that work? Seems like it should, but before I build anything (kind of an involved project), I thought I should find out.

[Edit] Oh, and when you install buttons, you install them before painting usually, right? I assume you then just mask them off with tape to avoid getting them stuck - they're meant to spin to avoid getting hung up on rails, aren't they? I think I saw that on an Apogee video...

SCrocketfan · Jan 24, 2015

lcorinth said:
[Edit] Oh, and when you install buttons, you install them before painting usually, right? I assume you then just mask them off with tape to avoid getting them stuck - they're meant to spin to avoid getting hung up on rails, aren't they? I think I saw that on an Apogee video...

I've actually installed and painted buttons, they aren't meant to spin so you can actually cover them in paint with no problems. Any paint on the buttons gets scraped off pretty fast at launch though. You can also install them after painting.

Micromeister · Jan 24, 2015

lcorinth said:
Funny you should mention that. I've also been considering using the mini buttons for the metric rails on my Big Dog and PSII's. I actually have a lot of questions about all this stuff, but I want to be clear and succinct when I ask (so as not to repeat questions which are asked over and over again), and need to do some searching on TRF to see if there's already a thread I should attach my questions to.

How do you like the mini buttons? How heavy a rocket or powerful a motor would you say they could hold? And the micro buttons? I like the idea of smaller (mini) for rockets that aren't too big for them, and a nice little (micro) rail sounds attractive to me instead of rods for LPR rockets. I can't say why - it just sounds like it would be a sturdier option to me. But smaller external bits always seem better to me for some reason - maybe just cosmetic.

Might as well ask a couple more questions here since I've started - I don't have a club (the nearest one to me is about an hour and a half away). I might start one, but there's also a possibility that I'll move next fall to a place with a club, and I could join that (we're not moving because of rockets, but I've already googled local clubs in the area). My understanding is that few clubs use micro or mini rails. But, if I built my own, do most clubs welcome people bringing their own pads?

And lastly - thanks for the rail pictures - I suspected that was a way they could be mounted. Question is, what do you mount the rod on? I have plans for a launch pad which uses a drill chuck - would that work? Seems like it should, but before I build anything (kind of an involved project), I thought I should find out.

[Edit] Oh, and when you install buttons, you install them before painting usually, right? I assume you then just mask them off with tape to avoid getting them stuck - they're meant to spin to avoid getting hung up on rails, aren't they? I think I saw that on an Apogee video...

Personally I just Love both Mini and Micro rail buttons they are just so much better looking the Launch Lugs.
My clubs main Launch field is about an Hour and a half from me as well but we fly 11 -12 months year round and I'm happy to make the drive.
Every club I've ever had contact with across the country has always welcomed folks to use their individual Launch pads, Many including Narhams do not have most use their individual controllers as that becomes what's know as a Mis-Fire alley layout. Some clubs do use that layout but it's a lot harder to control if there are lots of flyers.

You are correct most clubs do not as yet supply any rail Launchers. Our club just this year purchased two each of the 1010 x 72" and 8020 20mm x 4ft mini rails for open club use. while several of us have had and allowed other members and public flyers to use our individual Pads & rails for some time we felt is was in the best interest of the club to invest in the standard and Mini rail systems.

Personally I'm currently the only 10mm Makerbeam Micro rail button user in our club but that should be ending soon.
because the 20mm 8020 rail is not available in longer then 48" lengths I would not recommend it for anything heavier then the 3.3lb LPR-MPR weight limit. personally I don't see any problem at all flying higher thurst rockets IF and I say IF the weight to thrust ratio get the model to safe speed in 4ft.

Yeap a drill chuck or any type of threaded bolt lock down system works well with all three sized.

I was super pleased with the MakerBeam suppliers started offering both 10mm square x 900mm and 10mm Square by 1500mm lengths. I immediately purchase a two pack from Amazon and converted my 900mm Micro Rail launcher to accept the longer 1500mm (59.5") micro rail. With that length, and replacing the nylon 2-56 micro button machine screws with Stainless steel I've had NO problem launching models up to BT-80 and a little over 2.5lbs (heaviest thing I have at the moment

). with the bigger models it helps to have a very Heavy Launcher base (mine is welded Steel) stake it down with long tent stakes. Surface winds seem to make Rail launchers a bit more top heavy due to both the mass and surface area presented to the cross winds. that said launching from these Mini and Micro rails has been a joy. I've launch in the same winds with other models on rods from our racks next to my rail. My flight straight as and arrow with 0 weather cocking while the rod launched models weathercock or rod whip? heavily.

I generally do not install the buttons until after paint finishing is complete, I do pre-Tap the holes the chase the holes after painting to clear the theats with the same size tap. I generally apply a toothpick drop of epoxy to the hole just before threading in the Machine screw.

Since the sleeve is Nylon I don't think they are intended to spin. I have a few that do simply because I didn't want to over-tighten the screw at installation.

All in all I have to say unless something really bad happens in the near future; I don't see myself using anything larger then the MINI buttons on Any of my MPR Heavy Clustered models from now on unless the model needs the extra length of the 1010 rail. Still searching for a 8020 20mm x 72". My plan is to use only Micro buttons on all my Micro, LPR and most MPR models to about 2.5lbs that I will be flying from my 10mm x 1500mm makerbeam rails.

I forgot to mention most of the Rail buttons are available in Black and White. Randy posted awhile ago the MINI's would be coming in colors like the Larger 1010 buttons very shortly. so it really isn't necessary to every have to paint or mask them out

lcorinth · Jan 25, 2015

Micromeister said:
Personally I just Love both Mini and Micro rail buttons they are just so much better looking the Launch Lugs.
My clubs main Launch field is about an Hour and a half from me as well but we fly 11 -12 months year round and I'm happy to make the drive.
Every club I've ever had contact with across the country has always welcomed folks to use their individual Launch pads, Many including Narhams do not have most use their individual controllers as that becomes what's know as a Mis-Fire alley layout. Some clubs do use that layout but it's a lot harder to control if there are lots of flyers.

You are correct most clubs do not as yet supply any rail Launchers. Our club just this year purchased two each of the 1010 x 72" and 8020 20mm x 4ft mini rails for open club use. while several of us have had and allowed other members and public flyers to use our individual Pads & rails for some time we felt is was in the best interest of the club to invest in the standard and Mini rail systems.

Personally I'm currently the only 10mm Makerbeam Micro rail button user in our club but that should be ending soon.
because the 20mm 8020 rail is not available in longer then 48" lengths I would not recommend it for anything heavier then the 3.3lb LPR-MPR weight limit. personally I don't see any problem at all flying higher thurst rockets IF and I say IF the weight to thrust ratio get the model to safe speed in 4ft.

Yeap a drill chuck or any type of threaded bolt lock down system works well with all three sized.

I was super pleased with the MakerBeam suppliers started offering both 10mm square x 900mm and 10mm Square by 1500mm lengths. I immediately purchase a two pack from Amazon and converted my 900mm Micro Rail launcher to accept the longer 1500mm (59.5") micro rail. With that length, and replacing the nylon 2-56 micro button machine screws with Stainless steel I've had NO problem launching models up to BT-80 and a little over 2.5lbs (heaviest thing I have at the moment). with the bigger models it helps to have a very Heavy Launcher base (mine is welded Steel) stake it down with long tent stakes. Surface winds seem to make Rail launchers a bit more top heavy due to both the mass and surface area presented to the cross winds. that said launching from these Mini and Micro rails has been a joy. I've launch in the same winds with other models on rods from our racks next to my rail. My flight straight as and arrow with 0 weather cocking while the rod launched models weathercock or rod whip? heavily.

I generally do not install the buttons until after paint finishing is complete, I do pre-Tap the holes the chase the holes after painting to clear the theats with the same size tap. I generally apply a toothpick drop of epoxy to the hole just before threading in the Machine screw.

Since the sleeve is Nylon I don't think they are intended to spin. I have a few that do simply because I didn't want to over-tighten the screw at installation.

All in all I have to say unless something really bad happens in the near future; I don't see myself using anything larger then the MINI buttons on Any of my MPR Heavy Clustered models from now on unless the model needs the extra length of the 1010 rail. Still searching for a 8020 20mm x 72". My plan is to use only Micro buttons on all my Micro, LPR and most MPR models to about 2.5lbs that I will be flying from my 10mm x 1500mm makerbeam rails.

I forgot to mention most of the Rail buttons are available in Black and White. Randy posted awhile ago the MINI's would be coming in colors like the Larger 1010 buttons very shortly. so it really isn't necessary to every have to paint or mask them out

I went ahead and ordered a pack each of 1010, mini and micro buttons. They were cheap, so I figured it was worth the cost to have a look at them and see what I can use each size for. I like to look at the materials I'm working with before making any decisions.

I might just switch from launch lugs to microbuttons for all my small rockets. I like the idea of having a rail - less whippy!

lcorinth · Jan 29, 2015

Micromeister said:
Personally I just Love both Mini and Micro rail buttons they are just so much better looking the Launch Lugs.
My clubs main Launch field is about an Hour and a half from me as well but we fly 11 -12 months year round and I'm happy to make the drive.
Every club I've ever had contact with across the country has always welcomed folks to use their individual Launch pads, Many including Narhams do not have most use their individual controllers as that becomes what's know as a Mis-Fire alley layout. Some clubs do use that layout but it's a lot harder to control if there are lots of flyers.

You are correct most clubs do not as yet supply any rail Launchers. Our club just this year purchased two each of the 1010 x 72" and 8020 20mm x 4ft mini rails for open club use. while several of us have had and allowed other members and public flyers to use our individual Pads & rails for some time we felt is was in the best interest of the club to invest in the standard and Mini rail systems.

Personally I'm currently the only 10mm Makerbeam Micro rail button user in our club but that should be ending soon.
because the 20mm 8020 rail is not available in longer then 48" lengths I would not recommend it for anything heavier then the 3.3lb LPR-MPR weight limit. personally I don't see any problem at all flying higher thurst rockets IF and I say IF the weight to thrust ratio get the model to safe speed in 4ft.

Yeap a drill chuck or any type of threaded bolt lock down system works well with all three sized.

I was super pleased with the MakerBeam suppliers started offering both 10mm square x 900mm and 10mm Square by 1500mm lengths. I immediately purchase a two pack from Amazon and converted my 900mm Micro Rail launcher to accept the longer 1500mm (59.5") micro rail. With that length, and replacing the nylon 2-56 micro button machine screws with Stainless steel I've had NO problem launching models up to BT-80 and a little over 2.5lbs (heaviest thing I have at the moment). with the bigger models it helps to have a very Heavy Launcher base (mine is welded Steel) stake it down with long tent stakes. Surface winds seem to make Rail launchers a bit more top heavy due to both the mass and surface area presented to the cross winds. that said launching from these Mini and Micro rails has been a joy. I've launch in the same winds with other models on rods from our racks next to my rail. My flight straight as and arrow with 0 weather cocking while the rod launched models weathercock or rod whip? heavily.

I generally do not install the buttons until after paint finishing is complete, I do pre-Tap the holes the chase the holes after painting to clear the theats with the same size tap. I generally apply a toothpick drop of epoxy to the hole just before threading in the Machine screw.

Since the sleeve is Nylon I don't think they are intended to spin. I have a few that do simply because I didn't want to over-tighten the screw at installation.

All in all I have to say unless something really bad happens in the near future; I don't see myself using anything larger then the MINI buttons on Any of my MPR Heavy Clustered models from now on unless the model needs the extra length of the 1010 rail. Still searching for a 8020 20mm x 72". My plan is to use only Micro buttons on all my Micro, LPR and most MPR models to about 2.5lbs that I will be flying from my 10mm x 1500mm makerbeam rails.

I forgot to mention most of the Rail buttons are available in Black and White. Randy posted awhile ago the MINI's would be coming in colors like the Larger 1010 buttons very shortly. so it really isn't necessary to every have to paint or mask them out

I got my packs of buttons, and was really surprised. Those microbuttons are so tiny! The mini buttons are really tiny as well - both much smaller than what I'd thought from the website's pictures.

Even the 1010 buttons were smaller than I'd pictured in my mind. I now know these would look fine on a much smaller rocket than I'd thought.

I'm glad I got these, because seeing them will help me decide what to build, railwise. Do I want to make all three sizes? Just one? One micro and one 1010? Well, now I'll be able to think about it and make a decision. And the price is great, so even if I decide not to use a particular size, I don't feel like I've wasted my money.

I do wish they sold those rails in hardware stores, though. I'd like to be able to go look at them, and pick them up same day. Can't have everything, I guess...

Micromeister · Jan 30, 2015

lcorinth said:
I got my packs of buttons, and was really surprised. Those microbuttons are so tiny! The mini buttons are really tiny as well - both much smaller than what I'd thought from the website's pictures.

Even the 1010 buttons were smaller than I'd pictured in my mind. I now know these would look fine on a much smaller rocket than I'd thought.

I'm glad I got these, because seeing them will help me decide what to build, railwise. Do I want to make all three sizes? Just one? One micro and one 1010? Well, now I'll be able to think about it and make a decision. And the price is great, so even if I decide not to use a particular size, I don't feel like I've wasted my money.

I do wish they sold those rails in hardware stores, though. I'd like to be able to go look at them, and pick them up same day. Can't have everything, I guess...

I purchased my 1010 and 8020 rails from www.mcmaster.com I personally Prefer the rails with only two slots and solid sides over the 4 slot "Standard" as these two slot versions are stronger. the Micro Rails (10mm x 1500MM MakerBeam) best price purchase is through www.Amazon.com while you can't actually pick them up on-line you can download the dimensions and spec. sheets for all three from the sources for comparison. If you build your Launcher base with a socket and tensioning bolt to fit the 1" Square 1010 rail it can easily be adapted to hold both the 20mm Mini (.787") Square and 10mm Micor (.394") Square rails. I have a couple different set-ups I use so my rails have 1/4" Stainless Pin in the 1010, 3/16" Stainless Pin in the 8020, and 3/16" Stainless pin in Brass sleeve for the 10mm Makerbeam.
About the only thing to be very sure of is that you use a Heavy Launcher base as Rails have a good bit of more surface wind area pushing on them.

Space Oddity · Jan 30, 2015

SCrocketfan said:
I've actually installed and painted buttons, they aren't meant to spin so you can actually cover them in paint with no problems. Any paint on the buttons gets scraped off pretty fast at launch though. You can also install them after painting.

Is that correct, the buttons don't have to spin? I'd always assumed they had to. If that's the case though it certainly solves my problem.
I've just bought some 1010 buttons which I'm installing into a 3" tube. First time I've used buttons and have been scratching my head as to how to get inside the tube to fix them securely.
If they don't need to spin then maybe I could use some insulated well nuts, backed up maybe with a length of coupler to add some thickness to the tube. Maybe that solves the problem?

In any case the solution is much easier if they don't need to spin.

SO.

SCrocketfan · Jan 31, 2015

Space Oddity said:
Is that correct, the buttons don't have to spin? I'd always assumed they had to. If that's the case though it certainly solves my problem.
I've just bought some 1010 buttons which I'm installing into a 3" tube. First time I've used buttons and have been scratching my head as to how to get inside the tube to fix them securely.
If they don't need to spin then maybe I could use some insulated well nuts, backed up maybe with a length of coupler to add some thickness to the tube. Maybe that solves the problem?

In any case the solution is much easier if they don't need to spin.

SO.

They definitely don't spin, and I use well nuts to mount them which works fairly well.

lcorinth · Feb 1, 2015

Micromeister said:
I hear Ya Daniel:
I've been playing around the standard, Mini and Micro rail buttons since last summer. Randy over at www.railbuttons.com has buttons to fit the standard 1010 rails, 20mm mini rails and micro buttons for 10mm rails.

I've had the same delima on a few models where it's just not possible to get in there to install a small back up piece of Ply or what-have-you.
a trick I leaned recently is to drill and tap your cardboard body tube then wick-in Thin CA. Allow to completely dry (without accelerator) Then re-tap the hole for your button screw.
So far it's worked just fine on motors up to BP F's and clustered D and E's.

On a related note not trying to hijack the thread: Several of us have been experimenting with these new Mini and Micro Rail buttons and Various rails to see just where the failure motor size would be.
I'm very please to say: I've had a number of BP D12, E9 and E12 models flying from a 10mm square x 1500mm (about 59.5") Micro Rail with zero whip and dead-on straight flights in breezes to 20mph. The tiny rail buttons come with nylon attachment screw which I replaced with 2-56 Stainless steel pan head Machine screws for these higher thrust tests. Below is a couple photos of these tiny Micro Buttons and 10mm Makerbeam rail and 4-40 MS mini rail buttons that fit the 8020 20mm x 48" mini rails. If your looking at flying in these thurst ranges I wouldn't balk at flying just about everything from the Micro 10mm Makerbeam rail available thought Amazon.com.

These smaller surface area rails require less of a launcher base to remain stable even in higher surface winds
I've started using these Micro and Mini rail buttons on all my model builds for T3 (.375") Micro bodies to all models up to BT-101
Hope this helps a little: You can read all about the testing and results on the LPR forum thread.

Micromeister, I have a few more questions.

First of all, I'm really impressed with your replies to threads. All the pictures you post - it seems like you've done everything! You must have some mad skills.

The stainless pins you refer to - where do you get those? Are they the same types of rod you'd get at, say, Lowe's, which you could use for launch rods? How long a piece do you use? Do you have to cut them to length? Do they have some kind of official trade name I can search for online?

On a side note, I was going to purchase a Makerbeam today, but it seems like they are currently out of stock, and they may be out until March. I hope so! A rail of that size, with a pin that size, I can use my current launch pad setup which uses the Odd'l Rockets Adeptor, so it'll be a pretty easy conversion - my tripod even has a hook for attaching weight to stabilize it.

Anyway, I know people like threads to stay on topic, but I'm really glad this thread took this turn - it answered some questions I had.

Just to follow up to the original subject of this thread, I ended up getting some 1/4 inch rod and building a cheap, quickie launch pad. I wrote it up here.

I noticed that when I slid the rocket down onto the 3/16 inch rod, it waggled on the way down, and I didn't want it to do that on the way up. I only built the rocket with one lug, with a standoff, and rather than scrape off some paint and add a new lug, I decided to go with a rod that would be hugged by the launch lug. I figured better safe than sorry. Turns out I need a longer rod, but that's a pretty easy fix (they were out of stock of the length I needed that day).

From this point forward, though, I'm going to look into rails. I've got tons of buttons of various sizes now, so I think it's time to play with those.

Micromeister · Feb 6, 2015

lcorinth said:
Micromeister, I have a few more questions.

First of all, I'm really impressed with your replies to threads. All the pictures you post - it seems like you've done everything! You must have some mad skills.

The stainless pins you refer to - where do you get those? Are they the same types of rod you'd get at, say, Lowe's, which you could use for launch rods? How long a piece do you use? Do you have to cut them to length? Do they have some kind of official trade name I can search for online?

On a side note, I was going to purchase a Makerbeam today, but it seems like they are currently out of stock, and they may be out until March. I hope so! A rail of that size, with a pin that size, I can use my current launch pad setup which uses the Odd'l Rockets Adeptor, so it'll be a pretty easy conversion - my tripod even has a hook for attaching weight to stabilize it.

Anyway, I know people like threads to stay on topic, but I'm really glad this thread took this turn - it answered some questions I had.

Just to follow up to the original subject of this thread, I ended up getting some 1/4 inch rod and building a cheap, quickie launch pad. I wrote it up here.

I noticed that when I slid the rocket down onto the 3/16 inch rod, it waggled on the way down, and I didn't want it to do that on the way up. I only built the rocket with one lug, with a standoff, and rather than scrape off some paint and add a new lug, I decided to go with a rod that would be hugged by the launch lug. I figured better safe than sorry. Turns out I need a longer rod, but that's a pretty easy fix (they were out of stock of the length I needed that day).

From this point forward, though, I'm going to look into rails. I've got tons of buttons of various sizes now, so I think it's time to play with those.

First Off Thanks for the Kudo's on the Photo Library. When you've been involved in a particular endever for as many years as I have now it's actually pretty easy to have done lots of stuff. I started documenting these activities almost from the start, Actually as soon as I have a Job and funds of my own

Having been in the Sign business for more the 45years, Most of us "Old Time" Sign men had to be schooled and Skilled in just about all forms of Construction: Sheet Metal Layout and fabrication, Plumbing, Plastic Fabrication, Structural Steel fabrication, Electrical, Electornics, Luminous Tube Bending & processing(ie Neon Lighting), Concrete, Footing & foundation design, Vinyl Application, Sand Blasting, Painting (All Forms- Hand painted to advanced Automotive 2 and 3 part Poly-Urethane and urethane system). WoodWorking, Cabinet Making, Glues & Adhesives, Hardware, Fasteners & Anchors, a good bit of chemistry and basic Math & physics plus being a trained Commerical Artist and Draftsmen. I've had a great time with all this stuff

Add to that I've been fascinated with our Space programs since the vary beginning and had the GREAT luck of having a family heavily involved through NRL Naval Research Labs. Vangard and other Projects I guess I had no choice LOL!

All that out of the way:
To your questions: The 3/16 and 1/4" Stainless steel Pins I referred to are nothing more then Old damaged 316 Stainless steel Launch rod pieces. these are cut off to 3" or 4" long then taped 10-24 (3/16") or 1/4-20 (1/4") into the existing center holes in the 8020 (20mm) rod, and 1010 -1" sq Standard rails.
I use a standard threading die for both size Rods to thread about 1-1/4" of each to thread into the center hole. If you don't have these tools or don't want to invest in such the center holes can be drilled out to accept a 1/4" or 3/16" Rod piece that can easily be epoxied in place.
All that would be needed would be an electice Hand drill and HS Steel drill bits 3/16" and 1/4" in size, I suggest a Jobber length (about 3" long).

For many years I've used www.mcmaster.com for just about all my "Industrial Everything" purchases. They have just about anything you might need at reasonable prices and their delivery systems is just incredible, As Long as I have my order in by Noon on one day, whatever I've orders is on my door step the next day by 5:00PM. As they only use UPS sometimes the Fee is a little high but the quality of materials and superior delevery make it worth it.

Launch Rods; I prefer 316 Stainless over 303 alloy as it is a bit stiffer. 1/8" x 6' #89325K88 @ about 13.00, 3/16" x 6' #89325K89 @ about 13.00, and 1/4" x 6' #89325K91 @ about 14.00each. I generally cut the 1/8" and 3/16" into two 3'-0" rods.

1010 Standard Rail: #47065T118, 1"sq x 6'-0", 2-slot (center Hole Tap 1/4-20") @ 19.79ea + S&H

The 8020 (20mm) x 4'-0". 2slot Rail #5537T117 (.787"Square) Center Hole =4.3mm(.1692") Tap 10-24. @ about 13.09 + 5.48 S&H= 18.57

Actually the maker beam bases are a lot easier: Start with a 3" piece of 19/32" Brass tubing .014" wall thickness #8859K36 2pk @9.68.
Cut a .5625" wook Plug from any 1" (actual 3/4") thick board, Sand to fit the id of the Brass tube, Drill a 1/4" hole in the center of the plug and epoxy a 2" piece of 1/8" or 3/16" dia. Stainless Rod in the hole. Epoxy the plug flush with the bottom of the Brass tube. After this has set up Mix and spoon epoxy into the open end and insert the MakerBeam rail into the brass tube until it bottoms out. Use Alcohol to clean up any epoxy that overflows the top of the tube. Set upright to cure. Use with a Heavy Launcher base that can be weighted or better Staked down.

Space Oddity · Feb 8, 2015

lcorinth said:
I've never installed buttons before. I'm still not entirely sure how to do it, but I have been doing some googling on the matter. I've heard about t-nuts and things, but I still don't know enough details to confidently start the build. A lug on the Big Dog might just be easier.

Going back to one of the original questions which is one that I had, I think I may have a solution.
Never having fitted a rail button before I had concerns about strength and access to fit them. I have bought a couple of 1010 button sets to be installed within a 3" Loc body tube. The design aims I have are as follows:

1. To be able to install them from outside the body tube, without having to find a "special arm" capable of reaching inside the tube - so no internal fasteners, nuts, or application of adhesives.

2. To have the option of a button that spins. I know others have stated that buttons need not spin and I'm sure that's right, but that doesn't feel right to me.

3. I want to be able to replace buttons if necessary, by simply unscrewing the old ones and screwing on new ones - without having to access the inside of the body tube.

4. I don’t want the button screw or fasteners inside the body tube to be a potential snag for the parachute or shock cord when they are blown from the tube. This is fairly easy to solve by installing a long motor mount tube so that the forward button (positioned near the CoG) is within the motor mount tube chamber, between the forward and middle centring rings. This does however mean that item 1 (above) is no longer an aim; it is now a necessity as due to the centring rings it will be impossible to access the motor mount tube chamber even with a “special arm” tool.

I think I’ve found the ideal solution in the form of an anchor nut I discovered last weekend. I found it them in hardware store, they are available on eBay and classed as caravan wall fixings.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10-x-Car...ervan_Caravan_Accessories&hash=item5b0b9c9834

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10-x-Car..._Material_Nails_Fixing_MJ&hash=item56574d0ed3

The good thing about these fixings is that they can be used in a thin wall.

I covered a few quick and basic tests using a 2.56” coupler tube – Estes quality and thickness.
The first test was with the anchor nut installed directly into the tube. I drilled an M8 hole into the tube and epoxied the nut into the hole. After curing I screwed in an M4 screw and pulled the anchor hard against the inside of the tube. There was a very slight flattening of the tube but it held well.

The second test used the same assembly but with an M8 washer on the inside of the tube. I left the washer flat. Again, an extremely strong fit but with more flattening of the tube.

The third test was the same as the second but using a flexible plastic M8 washer cut from a Tupperware box. The washer formed to the inside diameter of the tube but still showed the same flattening as test 2.

In conclusion the simple test 1 proved the best giving adequate strength and the least tube deformation. It also kept within my aims in not having to access the inside of the tube with a “special arm” tool. I did try a shear test by applying a 28Ib weight. It held well. I suspect that if I’d added any more weight the tube would have deformed and failed before the fixing.
I’ve since tried another test in a 2.56” Loc tube of the same stiffness as the 3” I intend to use. There was very little noticeable flattening of the tube.
For information, the weight of the fixing, M4 screw and button is 4.8g (steel screw) and 2.8g (nylon screw). I’ll probably use the nylon screw with some thread lock to stop it working loose. Not for weight but for low friction with the button and no corrosion.

Finally, I know many of you will no doubt have found this solution before but in common with Icorinth I couldn’t find solutions on the web that didn’t involve access to the inside of the tube, using lock nuts or blocks of wood. The idea of screwing into a cardboard tube (even with CA glue to harden the hole) didn’t seem particularly reliable to me. The “bite” length in the tube just isn’t enough to give long term reliable use.

For those who have been in a similar state of confusion as me, I hope this helps. If I haven’t explained things clearly I do have some snaps of the test pieces and am happy to post them.

SO.

PS. The reason I opened this post by saying "I may have a solution" is that I haven't yet flown the rocket with buttons. I'll let you know if it all turns to disaster. Otherwise it works.

lcorinth · Feb 8, 2015

Space Oddity said:
Going back to one of the original questions which is one that I had, I think I may have a solution.
Never having fitted a rail button before I had concerns about strength and access to fit them. I have bought a couple of 1010 button sets to be installed within a 3" Loc body tube. The design aims I have are as follows:

1. To be able to install them from outside the body tube, without having to find a "special arm" capable of reaching inside the tube - so no internal fasteners, nuts, or application of adhesives.

2. To have the option of a button that spins. I know others have stated that buttons need not spin and I'm sure that's right, but that doesn't feel right to me.

3. I want to be able to replace buttons if necessary, by simply unscrewing the old ones and screwing on new ones - without having to access the inside of the body tube.

4. I don’t want the button screw or fasteners inside the body tube to be a potential snag for the parachute or shock cord when they are blown from the tube. This is fairly easy to solve by installing a long motor mount tube so that the forward button (positioned near the CoG) is within the motor mount tube chamber, between the forward and middle centring rings. This does however mean that item 1 (above) is no longer an aim; it is now a necessity as due to the centring rings it will be impossible to access the motor mount tube chamber even with a “special arm” tool.

I think I’ve found the ideal solution in the form of an anchor nut I discovered last weekend. I found it them in hardware store, they are available on eBay and classed as caravan wall fixings.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10-x-Car...ervan_Caravan_Accessories&hash=item5b0b9c9834

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10-x-Car..._Material_Nails_Fixing_MJ&hash=item56574d0ed3

The good thing about these fixings is that they can be used in a thin wall.

I covered a few quick and basic tests using a 2.56” coupler tube – Estes quality and thickness.
The first test was with the anchor nut installed directly into the tube. I drilled an M8 hole into the tube and epoxied the nut into the hole. After curing I screwed in an M4 screw and pulled the anchor hard against the inside of the tube. There was a very slight flattening of the tube but it held well.

The second test used the same assembly but with an M8 washer on the inside of the tube. I left the washer flat. Again, an extremely strong fit but with more flattening of the tube.

The third test was the same as the second but using a flexible plastic M8 washer cut from a Tupperware box. The washer formed to the inside diameter of the tube but still showed the same flattening as test 2.

In conclusion the simple test 1 proved the best giving adequate strength and the least tube deformation. It also kept within my aims in not having to access the inside of the tube with a “special arm” tool. I did try a shear test by applying a 28Ib weight. It held well. I suspect that if I’d added any more weight the tube would have deformed and failed before the fixing.
I’ve since tried another test in a 2.56” Loc tube of the same stiffness as the 3” I intend to use. There was very little noticeable flattening of the tube.
For information, the weight of the fixing, M4 screw and button is 4.8g (steel screw) and 2.8g (nylon screw). I’ll probably use the nylon screw with some thread lock to stop it working loose. Not for weight but for low friction with the button and no corrosion.

Finally, I know many of you will no doubt have found this solution before but in common with Icorinth I couldn’t find solutions on the web that didn’t involve access to the inside of the tube, using lock nuts or blocks of wood. The idea of screwing into a cardboard tube (even with CA glue to harden the hole) didn’t seem particularly reliable to me. The “bite” length in the tube just isn’t enough to give long term reliable use.

For those who have been in a similar state of confusion as me, I hope this helps. If I haven’t explained things clearly I do have some snaps of the test pieces and am happy to post them.

SO.

PS. The reason I opened this post by saying "I may have a solution" is that I haven't yet flown the rocket with buttons. I'll let you know if it all turns to disaster. Otherwise it works.

That sounds pretty good, actually. Would you mind posting pictures?

The_Lone_Beagle · Feb 9, 2015

Darn it, I can't find the thread now, but I too have gotten to a point where I am thinking about a rail, and one fellow said he just uses a
this:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001F0F112/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=2LG2GBCE9LGW7&coliid=IC8ZNYOZIL3WC
and a that:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004AZWN88/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_S_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=2LG2GBCE9LGW7&coliid=I3LYT23Y65FPL3
and I meant to ask for photos, but I'm thinking you just clamp the rail into the jaw and you are set. The bonus is, you can use the stand at home for home improvement projects!

Micromeister · Feb 21, 2015

The_Lone_Beagle said:
Darn it, I can't find the thread now, but I too have gotten to a point where I am thinking about a rail, and one fellow said he just uses a
this:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001F0F112/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=2LG2GBCE9LGW7&coliid=IC8ZNYOZIL3WC
and a that:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004AZWN88/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_S_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=2LG2GBCE9LGW7&coliid=I3LYT23Y65FPL3
and I meant to ask for photos, but I'm thinking you just clamp the rail into the jaw and you are set. The bonus is, you can use the stand at home for home improvement projects!

Be sure to use a Heavier Launcher base with any rail, They all by themselves create more of a turnover threat due to the additional wind load area. OR be sure to securely stake down your Launcher base.

Gary Byrum · Feb 25, 2015

Kirk G said:
....paging the Angry Launch Lug.... ("How dare you call me too large..." LOL!)

Kirk G · Mar 30, 2015

If I may just piggy back onto this discussion for a moment.
Last club launch, I had limited time, and a maiden voyage for a Loadstar II, which had been painted, but no decals yet.
I brought 3 raw eggs along and enough, er, protective wrap devices... er, "safes"... to contain the mess, should one develop...
But I used caution at first, and decided to do a test launch without anything in the payload.... just to make sure, before trying an egg. Glad I did.

The launch lug/soda straw seemed just a bit tight going onto the rod, but once I had it threaded, and lowered, it seemed loose enough. The launch rod was brand new that morning, and so couldn't have had much use, but might have had some.
Anyway, I fired the bird off, and discovered the entire booster B6-0 went up without gaining much height, and then the B6-4 second stage went up completely, pretty damn quickly also. I guess I didn't have enough friction fit in the engine mount, cause the second stage motor backed out and flew off on it's own... and the rocket came down without ejecting the nose cone, payload nor chute....and lawn darted into the soft earth two to three inches....without any damage.

So to get back on topic, I'm wondering what one can do when faced with a particularly snug, or binding launch lug?
What do you do? Sand the rod? Hand rotate a drill bit inside the launch lug and re-load it down the rod?
Abandon the launch and tear off the small soda straws? Replace them with a someone larger launch lug?

I'm thinking that while a launch lug that has too much room in it may feel a little loose, that it can't really hurt. But the other way around...too tight and small, could/will bind and expend a lot of your impulse momentum just getting off the rod.
Am I right here?

Recommendations?

I want to launch this bird next month. Preferably WITH a raw egg in the payload...

ADDITIONAL EDIT: Estes was kind enough to send me not only a replacement pack of B6-6, but also a pack of B6-0 boosters, AND a brand new Loadstar II kit... just in case. That was LOTS more than I would have expected, and I have nothing but good things to say about Estes Customer service!

shreadvector · Mar 30, 2015

A single launch lug is not always a good idea. For long or heavy rockets that can twist or torque on the rod, I prefer one lug near (just aft of) the center of gravity and another at the back (aft) end of the rocket. Two lugs spaced apart will act like a longer lug and prevent any twisting or binding on the rod. AND it allows you to use 1/4" lugs on a rocket that can fly safely off a 3/16" rod since there will be no rotating and binding on the rod.

using one lug near the c.g. is not such a great idea since it is placed a good distance up from the bottom of the rocket and the lug will leave the launch rod after a shorter travel distance, meaning it will build up less speed on the rod. The whole point of a launch rod (or rail) is to guide as long as possible.

Speaking of rails, a week ago I saw a TARC team have a fairly poor practice flight because they were using a rail. you see, they just assumed the rail would result in a perfect boost, but they ignored the fact that the rocket was held in place by the rail and with a cross wind, there was significant binding force on the rail and when the rocket left the rail the wind pre-load torqued the trajectory really badly. I explained this to them and they then used a napkin as a wind-vane and they rotated their pad and rail so that the rocket would not be hit with a side load from the wind. Boosts were much straighter after that. This is not as much of a problem on a rod since the rocket can rotate around the rod until it is "relaxed".

JeromeK99 · Apr 2, 2015

I personally have not used rasol-buttons... yet... I have purchased a few types and they haven't quite made it onto a build yet.

One thing nobody has mentioned is to be very careful loading your bigger rockets when using standard rail buttons. I have witnessed many HPR guys doing the walk-of-shame after snapping off the aft button. It seems to be very easy to mis-align the rocket on a standard rail button and torque it off the airframe before getting the top one on.

Jerome

Kirk G · Apr 7, 2015

shreadvector said:
I explained this to them and they then used a napkin as a wind-vane and they rotated their pad and rail so that the rocket would not be hit with a side load from the wind. Boosts were much straighter after that. This is not as much of a problem on a rod since the rocket can rotate around the rod until it is "relaxed".

That's a really good point. I wonder now if I had been positioning any of my LPR on a rod this way or not? I suspect if the wind was strong enough, it would turn on it's own, and I probably have positioned them that way while looking for ignition clips on the ground...

Space Oddity · Apr 8, 2015

lcorinth said:
That sounds pretty good, actually. Would you mind posting pictures?

Sorry, forgot to post photos.

Just to say I launched a medium power rocket at the weekend using these fixings for the first time. Had a deliberate and slight interference on the buttons before I set the loctite. On recovery the fixings were intact and the interference unchanged. The fixings worked very well.
I've now relieved the screws and reset them so that they are feely revolving and ready for the next flight.

SO.

Too large a launch lug?

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