some guidance on fiberglass L1/L2 rocket?

I am having trouble deciding which fiberglass rockets to get. I first flown a EZI65 on a H128 but that's a paper rocket, and I'm told fiberglass rocket weights more so I'm assuming that a 4" rocket probably won't fly all that well on a L1 motor? I'm looking at a few:

Mad Cow Nike Smoke 4" - Doesn't come with parachutes meaning I'd have to buy one... adding more than 30 dollars to its price tag. And it doesn't fly all that well with L1 motors (it needs a high I to fly well, it's really a L2 rocket)
Mad Cow Nike Smoke 2.6" - Has parachutes, is not too expensive, and flies well on L1 motors, but I fear if I do L2 attempt with it, I may lose it (perhaps an add on AV bay will slow things down a bit)
Mad Cow Black Brandt 4" - Doesn't come with chutes either, and can't fly with L1's at all (since it's heavier than the Nike Smoke)
2.6" - Flies well with L1's and possibly L2's

Motor system I'm hoping to use is Loki 38/480 cases... or possibly Aerotech 29/360 (since they do not require hazmat)

Anything else I should look at?

I am also pursing my Level 2, and I actually at the moment have 4 rockets I could use. Let's start with your choices:

Black Brandt ~ $260 needs recovery and electronics. You would have flights from 2-6k feet with J's and 4-9k feet on K motors, all depends on which ones of course.

2.6 Smoke ~ $120 has recovery and no need to buy electronics has it has no ebay with it. It can fly to about 1400 on a CTI 1 grain G79 and also to 4800 on a CTI 3 grain J330. You could also sim other 38mm J motors to see what that gets you.

4 Smoke ~ $170 no recovery and no ebay with it. Can fly on a CTI 1 grain I218 to 2400 and 4800 on a K1440.

Do you have any motor hardware yet? 38mm is cheaper than 54mm, same applies to the acutal motors themselves as well.

Unfortunately, high power is expensive, it adds up quick!

I am personally in the process of build this rocket https://www.apogeerockets.com/Rocket_Kits/Skill_Level_4_Kits/Level-2?cPath=1_86&

Has everything but the actual electronics for DD. K660 to 10k feet would be a great flight after the cert flight and can fly 3k-6k flights all the rest of the time.

I don't have any hardware, but was planning on either getting the 38/480 loki hardware or the 29/360 aerotech hardware (it really depends on which ones are good I guess)

Loki looks promising since I don't have to pay hazmat fees on it (and therefore not have big orange labels that scares anyone who sees the package) and also loki reloads are cheaper since it has a reusable nozzle. I'm just thinking get one Loki hardware and stick to that designation until I want to do a L2, then I can get a higher power Loki reload.

one item I didn't see listed for the Apogee level 2, is any mention of shock cord protectors. you will be wanting them if you use the nylon shock cords.
Rex

Level 2 doesn't seem bad, but it seems to fly badly on L1 motors as well... wonder if I could reduce some weight by removing the AV bay for motor ejection when flying L1...

How about a 3" kit? Ever thought about a PML kit? Probably stronger & lighter than FG. I just got my L2 with a 38mm J400 in PML Tomahawk. Their kits come with just about everything except motor retainers & electronics.

https://publicmissiles.com/secure/kits.asp?groupid=2

What is the reason for specifically wanting a fiberglass rocket? Unless you're planning on pushing limits somewhere, not sure why you want/need a fg rocket.

How is Quantum tube stronger than FG? Even PML said it's not suitable for supersonic flights while FG can.

taiwanluthiers said:

I don't have any hardware, but was planning on either getting the 38/480 loki hardware or the 29/360 aerotech hardware (it really depends on which ones are good I guess)

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Sorry I skipped over that line. Just remember, you can always use an adapter to go down, but never up.

@Rex My kit didn't have them, I personally don't use them for my L1 launches, maybe I'll look into it and won't rely as much on the nomex.


And loopy has a point as well. You could as get a "paper" rocket but glass it yourself, it makes it much strong (and fun if you like building) and it'll be great practice when you do scratch built stuff.

I forgot about this kit https://www.apogeerockets.com/Rocket_Kits/Skill_Level_3_Kits/Torrent_Rocket_Kit?cPath=1_86& (and I even have one LOL)! I am basically finishing mine up and plan to do several H and I motors and will either do my L2 with it or the Level 2 rocket.

As you can see, it can fly H and I's just fine and on a J350W-14 is can reach 3000. It was a nice and easy build and the instructional videos on how to build it from Apogee were fantastic.

I guess Fiberglass because it's what a real rocket ought to be made of, it's strong, so it means it is likely to survive hard landings. Also if it lands in the water, it's not going to kill the rocket (it will kill a paper one, even glassed paper). Only problem with Level 2 is it weights 8lbs empty, and then it wants you to use the aeropack retainer/adapter (close to 60 bucks for both). I used to use this Kaplow clip like thing with the EZI 65 (which also came with a 54mm motor tube) but was wondering if it's even possible to mount stuff to a fiberglass centering ring.

What were you planning on doing for retainers and adapters for the other rockets?

Probably blind nuts on the aft centering ring, and kaplow clip style retainer. It's cheap and effective.

You are experiencing a common dilemma. You want fiberglass. Fiberglass is heavy. Heavy requires bigger motors. I would suggest that you have a rocket that flies L1 motors, so maybe you don't need a second L1 rocket. If you are really serious about 10,000 feet, you might require tracking ( more expense). Are water landings an issue for you? If so, maybe fiberglass would be better. If not a concern, there are some very nice paper and paper / fiberglass rockets. Binder Design has great, affordable paper rockets that can be flown on L1 and L2 motors. They don't require glassing. Polecat Aerospace has paper rockets that have been glassed. I have one, and it is very tough. Heavy though, so I don't fly it on L1 motors. LOC has nice paper rockets. I have a LOC iV. It flies great on L1 motors, but you already have an L1 LOC. Giant Leap has great rockets that have different performance capabilities. If you are fixed on fiberglass, there is a whole new trend going on in rocketry called thin walled tubing. Look to Wildman, Rocketry Warehouse, and others for kits with thin walled tubing. Madcow is starting to get thin walled kits, and the weights of the new kits are coming down. A lot of new lighter nosecones out there now also. So even fiberglass rocket weights are coming down. You have to look carefully for the info. It is coming out. Good luck with your decisions.

It sounds like I should go with Madcow's 2.6" kits if I want to do L1 with it (and probably tear a hole in the sky with L2). That Level 2 kit weights more than 3KG!!! It sounds like it needs a big motor to push it up.

What about a madcow 4" little John? I always wanted one so I figured I would mention it haha. It can fly on L1 and L2 motors no problem.

Check out the 3 inch Punisher from Wildman. Was $89 on sale. Not yet available for the masses (soon). 54 mm motor mount. Went to 2000 ft on I211 I believe. Can handle 54 mm L's.

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?120615-CJ-s-quot-PUNISHER-quot-build!

This is thin walled tube and much lighter nosecone material. I missed out on the sale (wasn't looking for a rocket, but should have gotten one). I will buy when it comes out. You have to buy all of the accessories, but still very cheap rocket. This might be right up your alley.

Detailed build thread to help you.

Yea, I have been asking about the punisher but I don't see it for sale anywhere. I'm about to pull the trigger on the 3" Wildman rocket...

Hey.... someone is selling a 4 inch Jart on the yard sale forum for like $55 plus shipping. May want to check that out. it is just basically a really cool 4" Punisher with different fin shapes.

I just read it, not sure if its still a good deal because it has no nosecone (meaning I'd have to get one, and it's the most expensive part of the rocket), and also they are quite short... Maybe I can extend it with a AV bay later...

taiwanluthiers said:

I am having trouble deciding which fiberglass rockets to get. I first flown a EZI65 on a H128 but that's a paper rocket, and I'm told fiberglass rocket weights more so I'm assuming that a 4" rocket probably won't fly all that well on a L1 motor? I'm looking at a few:

Mad Cow Nike Smoke 4" - Doesn't come with parachutes meaning I'd have to buy one... adding more than 30 dollars to its price tag. And it doesn't fly all that well with L1 motors (it needs a high I to fly well, it's really a L2 rocket)
Mad Cow Nike Smoke 2.6" - Has parachutes, is not too expensive, and flies well on L1 motors, but I fear if I do L2 attempt with it, I may lose it (perhaps an add on AV bay will slow things down a bit)
Mad Cow Black Brandt 4" - Doesn't come with chutes either, and can't fly with L1's at all (since it's heavier than the Nike Smoke)
2.6" - Flies well with L1's and possibly L2's

Motor system I'm hoping to use is Loki 38/480 cases... or possibly Aerotech 29/360 (since they do not require hazmat)

Anything else I should look at?

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I think that is a BAD assumption. The MadCow 4" Nike Smoke is listed at 5 lbs. The Black Brandt at 7 lbs. and both have 54mm MMT. I fly a 4", 10 lb on I motors from AT I211W at 1,100 ft to the I284W to about 2,000 ft. The Nike Smoke should at least double those altitudes. At 5 lbs on the Nike Smoke, you should be able to fly that on most H motors. Even a Hobbyline G motor will handle 3.3 lbs and you're not much over that.

The real question seems to be, what do you mean by "won't fly all that well"? I don't know about western launches, but on the east coast, you don't want to go over about 3,000 to 4,000 ft without DD at most launch sites.

The Black Brandt is DD, the Nike Smoke is not. Even though both are 54mm, I would not fly the Smoke on J or K motors on most sites on the east coast. Just because of the altitude obtained at main deploy. In my eyes, that makes the Smoke a definite L1 rocket. The Brandt, with DD and it's added weight would fall into the L2 range much more, although it would still be flyable on large H and most of the I motors. Even the baby H 29mm AT H165R would give you 6:1 thrust to weight ratio with a 7 lb Brandt. It would be low and slow, but flyable if the winds were low.

In general a fiberglass rocket will usually weight about twice what the equivalent fiberboard rocket weighs, so all else being equal, you will need to upsize the motor 1 impulse class to get equivalent apogees.

The advantage is that fiberglass rockets are more rugged, especially in transportation, than fiberboard, so it's less likely to get dinged up.

The disadvantage is that fiberglass kits usually cost 2 to 3 times more than the fiberboard kit to build, and about twice as much to launch due to the large motor.

On the other hand since fiberglass rocket go about half the apogee of a lighter fiberboard rocket, you can launch a one class larger motor on a small field.

The reality is that fiberboard rockets are adequate for L3 flights, so "strength" should not the primary reason why you should decide to go either way for L1 and L2 rockets.

Bob

bobkrech said:

The reality is that fiberboard rockets are adequate for L3 flights, so "strength" should not the primary reason why you should decide to go either way for L1 and L2 rockets.

Bob

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Totally agree with that!!!

Welcome to the club. I struggled deciding what I wanted to do for my Level 2 rocket also. Definitely want to try fiberglass sometime, but not there yet. With a limited workspace and tool selection, the extra precautions and techniques needed when working with fiberglass seemed like a bit of a PITA. I ended up going with a scratch built 4" diameter Blue Tube rocket. Blue Tube has its pros and cons just like fiberboard and fiberglass. I just finished the main build on mine and so far my experience with the Blue Tube has been positive. Like all the other wonderful companies that support this hobby, Always Ready Rocketry has some nice kits.

I'm looking at the Formula 75 from Rocketry warehouse. Seems similar to Wildman Punisher (3" thin wall fiberglass). I was looking at paper/blue tube/PML QT kits but the costs just aren't that far off IMHO. The EZI 65 costs 100 dollars (I don't have one anymore by the way), A 4" Blue Tube kit costs 99 dollars (probably no parachute) and the Formula 75 costs 99 dollars (most likely includes absolutely nothing except for tube, coupler, motor mount, nosecone, centering rings, fins)

I had to choose between a 4" paper/bluetube/phenolic kit, 3" fiberglass kit, and the prices for both are the same, I'd like to give the fiberglass a shot... the weight will most likely be the same anyways.

What I hate is sometimes vendors do not always tell you what's included or not...

Seriously, it's a HARD choice for sure!

My L1/L2 build is going to be a 3" Frenzy XL clone made with LOC tubes, the 3" Pinnacle NC from GLR, a 38mm MMT, set up for DD (using motor ejection on L1 though, with Missleworks RRC3extreme along for the ride). I loved the Madcow 3" Frenzy but at $199.00 (its fiberglass) the kit was more than my piecemeal budget allows at one time. I am still vacillating on wether to glass the tubes or not.

taiwanluthiers said:

I'm looking at the Formula 75 from Rocketry warehouse. Seems similar to Wildman Punisher (3" thin wall fiberglass). I was looking at paper/blue tube/PML QT kits but the costs just aren't that far off IMHO. The EZI 65 costs 100 dollars (I don't have one anymore by the way), A 4" Blue Tube kit costs 99 dollars (probably no parachute) and the Formula 75 costs 99 dollars (most likely includes absolutely nothing except for tube, coupler, motor mount, nosecone, centering rings, fins)

I had to choose between a 4" paper/bluetube/phenolic kit, 3" fiberglass kit, and the prices for both are the same, I'd like to give the fiberglass a shot... the weight will most likely be the same anyways.

What I hate is sometimes vendors do not always tell you what's included or not...

Seriously, it's a HARD choice for sure!

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For what it's worth, I have a (slightly kit-bashed) Formula 75 that's one of my main "everyday" flyers. I fly it on H/I motors all the time (so "L1"), and it can handle J motors no problem (so "L2"). I built an AV bay into the nose cone, and utilize a CableCutter for dual deployment when appropriate. Or it can fly single/motor deployment. It's pretty versatile, tough as nails, and a fun, easy flyer.

s6

taiwanluthiers said:

I'm looking at the Formula 75 from Rocketry warehouse. Seems similar to Wildman Punisher (3" thin wall fiberglass). I was looking at paper/blue tube/PML QT kits but the costs just aren't that far off IMHO. The EZI 65 costs 100 dollars (I don't have one anymore by the way), A 4" Blue Tube kit costs 99 dollars (probably no parachute) and the Formula 75 costs 99 dollars (most likely includes absolutely nothing except for tube, coupler, motor mount, nosecone, centering rings, fins)

What I hate is sometimes vendors do not always tell you what's included or not…

Seriously, it's a HARD choice for sure!

Click to expand...

I have the Formula 75 (I plan to build it this weekend) and it's definitely a nice kit. You do need a retainer, shock cord, chute, and a bit of hardware to finish it though. It's more of a L1 kit than L2 though with motor deploy, I's like the 38/480 you mentioned put it in the 3000+ foot range and with motor eject, it's harder to fly higher altitude motors. The Punisher is HEDD and built to take much more impulse (L935 Imax would be possible with the Punisher and probably hit over 20,000 feet), so I'd recommend that if you want to fly L2 motors.

You could add a payload section to the 75 though, so you have tracking and dual deploy.

Have you looked at one of the longer 3" kits with standard dual deploy like the Wildman 3" Darkstar, 3" Competitor, or Rocketry Warehouse G3? Those might be the best of both worlds for you as they have the ability to fly with small drogues or drogue less and can fly decently on L1 motors, plus they are long enough you can cut the payload section and get very nice motor eject flights on H-I motors, or fly full stack on large I to medium L motors.

I'm not really looking to do DD at this point... one step at a time. DD gets expensive and there's reliability problems (motors ALWAYS eject, electronics can and do fail). Plus I can always add DD to an existing rocket if I need to. The other problem with DD is how would I go about having blackpowder legally??

I've settled on the Loki 38/240 hardware... less chance of flying the rocket to nowhere and it has cheaper reloads than the I's for sure. Plus I doubt it's even possible to get waviers to 20,000 feet unless you are in Black Rock...

taiwanluthiers said:

I'm not really looking to do DD at this point... one step at a time. DD gets expensive and there's reliability problems (motors ALWAYS eject, electronics can and do fail). Plus I can always add DD to an existing rocket if I need to. The other problem with DD is how would I go about having blackpowder legally??

I've settled on the Loki 38/240 hardware... less chance of flying the rocket to nowhere and it has cheaper reloads than the I's for sure. Plus I doubt it's even possible to get waviers to 20,000 feet unless you are in Black Rock...

Click to expand...

Sounds like a nice plan. With the 38/240 I'd stay away from any fiberglass kits larger then the 75 due to weight, the 75 sims at only 2000-2500 feet on those size motors. For getting black powder, I think there are a few sources where you can buy it in small quantities, not sure where exactly.
Is you plan to get a larger kit for L2 and also fly motor deploy?