I could use just a little guidance

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My board is mounted vertically (a horizontal mount would be easier). The board is probably an inch off the axis. Most of what I know about the drift, though, is from turntable testing, but I didn't look at distance from the axis as a variable. It's not obvious to me how the gyros would know if they're on the vertical axis or not. If they're actually accelerometers and not "real" gyros, maybe it matters.

Jim
If they are accelerometers then the X and Y accelerometers will always see roll as a force acting in the X and Y axis due to centrifical force. Getting them as close to center will minimize this but never eliminate it entirely. A true gyroscope will work much better of course. If they are gyros the they will still behave better being closer to the center due to the lesser centrifical force at that point.
 
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I did a 7th test flight this weekend at Argonia

I happened to be there for my first ever high power launch and Level 1 Cert that day. I sure wish I had known what I was about to witness. I would've like to meet you and chat about this and other projects. Oh well...see ya 'round the pasture!
 
I know they're not exactly high speed/low drag, but have you thought about passive roll stabilization like the AIM-9 rollerons on the booster?

edit: just started reading from the beginning and realized this was mentioned previously...
 
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I happened to be there for my first ever high power launch and Level 1 Cert that day. I sure wish I had known what I was about to witness. I would've like to meet you and chat about this and other projects. Oh well...see ya 'round the pasture!

Well, I should be back for Airfest anyway. This flight was pretty complex to get prepped, and with the pad setup and recovery of 3+ pieces, we just didn't have much time to spend at the launch. Next time...

Jim
 
If so, that is a hell of a bizarre aerodynamic phenomenon.

Speaking of videos, rotation and bizarre aerodynamic phenomenon, the down-part of this flight was also pretty interesting. The sustainer of the rocket had some weight in it to simulate the motor weight that would normally be there during the stabilization period. This weight, about 15 lb, perhaps contributed to spinning of the fin can during the descent. Actually, "spinning" doesn't quite capture what it was doing. As the fin can spun, the coiling harness first consumed the drogue chute and then started to spin up the upper air frame section. They fell that way - spinning - for quite some time, and I've shortened that part of the video to keep everyone from getting ill. I can't say I've ever seen anything quite like it.

As you might guess, the spinning air frame didn't do much for the deployment of the main. Worse, as the rocket fell, the spinning apparently caused the quick link at the top of the fin can to open up. When the main came out, the fin can fell off the harness, resulting in the picture shown below (we found the fin can about 100 feet or so from the remainder of the rocket). Thank goodness the dirt in Kansas has less clay in it than the dirt in Texas, and thank goodness the Kloudbusters have shovels. The fin can is fine and will fly again some day.

So here's the flick. Grab some popcorn and let's go for a spin...

https://youtu.be/exY1PtuG1j8

I had this happen once before, where a fin can became detached when the main came out. I was never able to figure out how a quick link that I knew I had attached had come loose. Now I think I know.

Jim

IMG_1061.jpg
 
Wow Jim, that thing is spinning like mad. I have one rocket that always spins, but I do not think quite so rapidly.

Are any of the masses significantly off the center line, and if so, are they not symmetrical?
 
Wow Jim, that thing is spinning like mad. I have one rocket that always spins, but I do not think quite so rapidly.

Are any of the masses significantly off the center line, and if so, are they not symmetrical?

Everything should be symmetrical except that the U-bolt on the top of the coupler is (was) perhaps a half inch off of the central axis. There is a camera shroud for a keychain camera mounted on the side of the rocket along with a couple of rail guides (used when this rocket flew as a single stage). The camera shroud is pretty large, although I reduced its original height somewhat, but it is still symmetrical. The camera shroud protected the camera that gave the better view of the canards on the flight.

Jim

Shroud.jpg
 
I did a quick graph of the rotation rate resulting from the control reversal versus velocity. Looks like rotation rate is pretty much directly proportional to velocity.

Pretty obvious where the booster separated (at 8.5 seconds). The plan was to separate the booster and start yaw/pitch control at 800 ft/s. Looks like it was actually at 900 ft/s. I got a little more altitude/velocity out of this flight than I expected.

Jim

Rotation vs Velocity.jpg
 
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Jim,

I'm not sure I agree that this is a control reversal. I would expect a control reversal to result in a runaway positive feedback loop, which would continue until the servos were full over. I think what your seeing is the proportional only gains inability to fully correct for the natural roll. Can you post the servo output on that graph as well?

-Brian
 
Jim,

I'm not sure I agree that this is a control reversal. I would expect a control reversal to result in a runaway positive feedback loop, which would continue until the servos were full over. I think what your seeing is the proportional only gains inability to fully correct for the natural roll. Can you post the servo output on that graph as well?

-Brian

Well, here's the graph. See what you think. The y axis is the PWM output times two. Early on, with roll only, the servos max out at 4000 at around 3 seconds, which is a deflection of 15° (the maximum for roll with roll-only). Later, at 8 seconds, the servos max out at 7.5° (the maximum allowed for yaw/pitch) with a little roll correction superimposed. At 18 seconds, the stabilization system is tumbling.

Jim

Servo outputs.jpg
 
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Based on the servo graph & the video, I wouldn't rule out that this is just your surfaces running out of control authority. If you wanted to be sure, you could program in a small doublet (or singlet) sometime near your max speed. The camera might be making pretty bad airflow around the downstream surface.

I'm sorry, but I haven't read through the whole thread - giant grain of salt please. Are you pulling more than 16G? Is that why you disabled the accelerometers in the MPU-6000? If there's a way to leave those on it should help with maintaining a better platform. It sure would be nice if there was a high-G MPU version.

EDIT: Spitballing...Is there anything in your booster that would cause the rocket to roll? Is there anything in common with the config this flight and the last time you saw this? I.e. is the booster fin orientation constant between the flights?
 
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Based on the servo graph & the video, I wouldn't rule out that this is just your surfaces running out of control authority. If you wanted to be sure, you could program in a small doublet (or singlet) sometime near your max speed. The camera might be making pretty bad airflow around the downstream surface.

I'm sorry, but I haven't read through the whole thread - giant grain of salt please. Are you pulling more than 16G? Is that why you disabled the accelerometers in the MPU-6000? If there's a way to leave those on it should help with maintaining a better platform. It sure would be nice if there was a high-G MPU version.

EDIT: Spitballing...Is there anything in your booster that would cause the rocket to roll? Is there anything in common with the config this flight and the last time you saw this? I.e. is the booster fin orientation constant between the flights?

I don't mean to rule out anything. One reason I don't think it's running out of control authority, though, is that the rocket has flown pretty straight before. I usually attach fins pretty straight, and there isn't anything external on the booster other than rail guides. This 5th test was an example.

https://youtu.be/umoduWiQb-o

I also see that once the booster is separated, control is very quickly established for the upper stage.

On the other hand, in the three flights with this configuration, the booster always turns counter clockwise as it separates. Hmm.

The accelerometers aren't really turned off, they are just not used to compensate for gyro drift after liftoff. I believe the Altus Metrum units that measure tilt do the same thing.

Jim
 
I also see that once the booster is separated, control is very quickly established for the upper stage.

On the other hand, in the three flights with this configuration, the booster always turns counter clockwise as it separates. Hmm.
Hmmm. It looks like the booster rotates some just before it separates too (is that what it looks like to you?). If the booster's pinned, that seems odd. If it's friction fit, then it seems a little odd for another reason.

I agree though - it does seem like your control surfaces should have enough authority. I'd love to see some flow vis after of your camera though.

The accelerometers aren't really turned off, they are just not used to compensate for gyro drift after liftoff. I believe the Altus Metrum units that measure tilt do the same thing.
Cool, gotcha.

I'll read through your thread to get all the background & do some more brainstorming. One initial thought is that maybe you could not worry about zeroing out the roll and just correct for vertical (as best as your gyros platform knows) as your rocket rolls. This would take pretty fast actuators though with your roll rate.

Anyway, this is an awesome project. Fun stuff!
 
One initial thought is that maybe you could not worry about zeroing out the roll and just correct for vertical
Refer to my earlier post about rotor vehicle flight dynamics. Could be done, but much higher degree of difficulty in the firmware, and you need really fast control loops, servos and bigger batteries (read flight mass). Life is full of compromises...
 
...you need really fast control loops, servos and bigger batteries (read flight mass). Life is full of compromises...
Yup. I just finished reading through the thread. I think you're right. Given what the servo rates look like, I think roll rate has to be fairly under control before the vertical can be chased down. A roll rate gate would be one way to do this in the control laws.

Continuing my previous brainstorming...

The booster rotating has been talked about a couple times in the thread. (e.g. this video and Jim's discussion in posts 216-218 https://youtu.be/umoduWiQb-o?t=1m43s )
After stewing on this & looking at more of the data, my best guess is the roll problem you're seeing is caused by the interaction between the canards and the booster's fins. The 4-canard to 3-fin airflow is likely very sensitive to the orientation angle between the canards and the booster fins. This is talked about in various degrees in posts 248, 253, 262 & others. I'd bet that solving that airflow & control problem is going to very, very tough.

I propose two different attack plans to isolate & kill the roll rate issue. 1) Build a 4-fin booster that's keyed to align the canards perfectly with the fins. A couple parameter ID in-flight test points in this config would really help to set the gains when the booster is attached (one test point subsonic & one near max speed maybe so that you can develop a gain schedule with varying dynamic pressure and/or Mach). I'd expect the control derivatives to be different with & without the booster attached. and/or 2) Disable all guidance commands until after the booster is separated. If you do this, jettison the booster as soon as possible, then correct for vertical (~2-3 seconds?) & light the 2nd stage, this might still get you very close to what you want. If you have an I term in your controller, you'll have to make sure it doesn't wind up while the controls are frozen.

MEMS drift is another fun one. If you stay under 32G, I wonder if the ICM-20601 might enable the IMU/platform calcs to include the accelerometers for the whole flight. I haven't played with that one though. Somebody would have to work some more Karman filter magic there.
 
If you have an I term in your controller, you'll have to make sure it doesn't wind up while the controls are frozen.

Yep. Don't forget the other important one. Make sure any integrators in the firmware peg out at the limit and just stop counting. Overflow or underflow of numeric integrators causes instant reversal of control as the counters wrap around. Could even be what you experienced in your flight. Put tests in the code to only increment or decrements when it won't put you around the overflow and give you a slam reversal.
 
Yup. I just finished reading through the thread. I think you're right. Given what the servo rates look like, I think roll rate has to be fairly under control before the vertical can be chased down. A roll rate gate would be one way to do this in the control laws.

Continuing my previous brainstorming...

The booster rotating has been talked about a couple times in the thread. (e.g. this video and Jim's discussion in posts 216-218 https://youtu.be/umoduWiQb-o?t=1m43s )
After stewing on this & looking at more of the data, my best guess is the roll problem you're seeing is caused by the interaction between the canards and the booster's fins. The 4-canard to 3-fin airflow is likely very sensitive to the orientation angle between the canards and the booster fins. This is talked about in various degrees in posts 248, 253, 262 & others. I'd bet that solving that airflow & control problem is going to very, very tough.

I propose two different attack plans to isolate & kill the roll rate issue. 1) Build a 4-fin booster that's keyed to align the canards perfectly with the fins. A couple parameter ID in-flight test points in this config would really help to set the gains when the booster is attached (one test point subsonic & one near max speed maybe so that you can develop a gain schedule with varying dynamic pressure and/or Mach). I'd expect the control derivatives to be different with & without the booster attached. and/or 2) Disable all guidance commands until after the booster is separated. If you do this, jettison the booster as soon as possible, then correct for vertical (~2-3 seconds?) & light the 2nd stage, this might still get you very close to what you want. If you have an I term in your controller, you'll have to make sure it doesn't wind up while the controls are frozen.

MEMS drift is another fun one. If you stay under 32G, I wonder if the ICM-20601 might enable the IMU/platform calcs to include the accelerometers for the whole flight. I haven't played with that one though. Somebody would have to work some more Karman filter magic there.

Some good ideas. I applaud your interest in reviewing the entire thread. I should probably do that too, but I note that my first post wasn't too far off for predicting what was to come. That was two years ago. Unfortunately, the opportunity for test launches is limited due to many things including $$'s. This last one was a day off work, two days driving and an N motor, not to mention months of preparation. There are also limitations on the amount of programming that can be done, as I don't do this myself (I'll learn some day). Not to complain - this is a bunch of fun - but there are limits on what I'm able to try.

In that context, my next planned use of the stabilization system is for Balls this coming September. I'd love to do another test, but there just isn't enough time, and I think I have enough data from this test flight to know what to do at Balls. The Balls flight, assuming approval, is N5800 to N1560 to M745, approaching 200K, with stabilization below the second stage. I'm rebuilding the second stage, but the first and third are veterans at this flight. The existing first stage is three fins, and that likely won't change.

Roughly, the flight profile on the boost is to reach 1,200 ft/s on burnout of the N5800 at 4 seconds. I can separate the booster immediately at that time, and then perhaps engage the stabilization system between 7 to 12 seconds (900 to 700 ft/s). If time permits, I may try to build a free-spinning fin can (remaking the lower part of the first stage) so that roll control could be engaged for the entire flight. We'll see.

Jim

PS - The current control strategy for roll control is proportional only to the roll rate. We have considered a heading hold approach, as is done with copters. I'm not sure this is needed though.
 
Unfortunately, the opportunity for test launches is limited due to many things including $$'s.
Yeah, it doesn't take too many test flights with N motors to add up to cubic dollars. Still, it looks like a ton of fun. Good luck with it!
 
I know from my testing of the stabilization system electronics that roll is not good, and I know from my last test flight that control reversal is possible. So, I can either turn off roll control during the initial boost (until the first stage separates), or I can try to figure out how to design a free-spinning fin can. Let's try the spinning fin can idea for a bit and see what happens.

I haven't been able to find out much about how to design such a thing. So, I've come up with a trial-balloon idea and I could use some feedback. The attached pics show the concept. The foundation for the lower booster section is a standard fiberglass air frame. As it turns out, this would fit into the upper part of the booster air frame with no modifications. Perfect. The fiberglass air frame would extend about 1" below the bottom of the motor (a 98mm CTI N5800).

The spinning fin can would be formed from a tube rolled on the fiberglass air frame (the orange tube). It would therefore be a nice slip-fit over the fiberglass tube. The fin can tube would be supported on 4 or 6 or 8(?) yoke bearings. What is shown in the drawings are six, 1/2" OD bearings with #10 hardware axles. The drawing also shows a "green" coupler tube that would double the air frame thickness below the motor. The purpose of this would be to better support the bearing axles. However, it would be possible for this ring to be quite a bit thicker than coupler tubing if necessary.

To assemble this thing, you would insert the motor and attach it to the top of the fiberglass air frame (essentially a zipperless coupler). Then, you would slip on the fin can, insert the tube-doubling coupler, and then attach the bearings. This is pretty darn simple actually, so there must be a flaw. Thoughts?

Jim

Spin plan 1.jpg

Spin plan 2.jpg
 
Jim - PSAS has done a 'spin can' before:

https://archive.psas.pdx.edu/lv2cspincan/

Edward

Thanks for the link. I've seen it before but it did not surface in my recent searches. I haven't really been able to develop a concept based on an axial bearing. As pointed out in the link, the bearings are expensive and it's difficult to envision how to use them in a minimum diameter rocket. But any such links to what has been done before will help!

Jim
 
Portland State Aerospace has been using a fin can for years. May want to contact them or take a look and see how they're doing it.
https://psas.pdx.edu/
Video of one of their flights.
[video=youtube;VAnPtbYMA8o]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAnPtbYMA8o&list=PL9498DE35E817D50C&index=1"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAnPtbYMA8o&list=PL9498DE35E817D50C&index=1[/video]
 
sorry, should have finished reading the thread. AlphaHybrids already beat me to PSAS
 
Portland State Aerospace has been using a fin can for years. May want to contact them or take a look and see how they're doing it.
https://psas.pdx.edu/
Video of one of their flights.

Someone PM'd me that video or a similar one a few years ago when I was starting the stabilization project - just giving me a heads up on the control reversal issue. I since deleted the PM and I don't remember who it was. But whoever it was, they're sitting back saying "see, I told you so". I'm just a little slow.

It looks to me like the approach PSAS took involves a level of fabrication that is several orders of magnitude beyond my capabilities. I'm going to need something simpler.

Jim
 
Someone PM'd me that video or a similar one a few years ago when I was starting the stabilization project - just giving me a heads up on the control reversal issue. I since deleted the PM and I don't remember who it was. But whoever it was, they're sitting back saying "see, I told you so". I'm just a little slow.

It looks to me like the approach PSAS took involves a level of fabrication that is several orders of magnitude beyond my capabilities. I'm going to need something simpler.

Jim

I agree Jim! Their capabilities in design/engineering/fabrication is beyond 99% of rocket hobbyists, at least the ones I know. It was quite an achievement for them, but I look forward to seeing your solution being finalized and implemented.

Greg
 
This reminded me of the fin spin bearing used by GMLRS. MLRS uses spiral guides in the launch tube to spin up the rocket and GMLRS was constrained to use the same tubes but didn't want a spinning rocket.

A search turned up a paper on the subject: "Aerodynamic Characteristics of a Canard-Controlled Missile with a Free-Spinning Tail"

Wherein I found: "Testing and analysis conducted by Burt in the 70's addressed this issue and concluded that canards were ineffective roll control devices for the canard+body+tail configuration."

I dug up one of these papers (Technical Report RD-77-8) and jumped to the conclusions where it suggests that a ring tail shows promise. Although depending on the launcher that may not be an option.
 
Jim,

Two ideas. One, for the first stage, to replicate the "Spinnerons" as the Sidewinder missile uses. Although I've never done that and the gyroscopic physics/aerodynamic interaction is something i've not tried to fully understand, just take as a given. Biggest issue might be flutter, though the real thing does not have that problem (the gyroscopic effect may prevent flutter).

The other is..... add electronic roll control to the first stage booster, in between the fins. Would mean adding a separate battery/controller and at least two servos. Maybe three since the booster has three fins. Although, having two vanes near the very bottom, 180 degrees apart, ought to work in roll even if two fins are 30 degrees away (possible pitch-yaw interaction with those fins, maybe). I know, that's a lot to add.

As for the cost of testing, this is why it would be so good if you had a much smaller model to do testing with. So it was not only cheaper, but you could test it at a lot of other launches, even a local site when the weather was good. Several flights a day. But I know at this point, that would be a lot of extra work to do to make up a smaller model, where the vast majority of the work wold not be the rocket airframe but all the guidance related stuff.

That s not a complaint or Monday morning quarterbacking. You have done incredibly well with this project, and lot of impressive research, learning, input, and finding a guru to program the controller. I do get concerned at times about some others who might get into this and decide "yeah I'll do an K powered rocket for my first guidance project", not learn what they needed to, not ground test/simulate like they needed to, and make some mistake leading into a very serious out of control crash. The kind of mistake they could/should have learned in testing smaller models. OK, don't mean to excuse not learning enough to begin with, but part of learning unfortunately means the hard way (a good hard earned lesson - don't let your battery pack go dead before liftoff. Yep, did that once. Waited for a cloud to go by, in order to get a better flight on a sunguidance model. Did not realize the battery went dead during the delay, servo set at full pitch-up as it should have been. The model looped into the ground. And I did not do another pre-launch confirmation that the guidance was working (wave hand over the sensors), before liftoff, I'd done that 15 minutes before).

Fortunately, newbies at guidance having guidance realted accidents with big rockets, without learning on smaller ones first, has not become a problem, yet. I know of none so far. But it could be a problem eventually.

Perhaps that's more of a lesson for others who work up guidance for hobby rockets, as any who read this thread may be interested in working up their own. Start smaller so it's less expensive and very important - logistically you can fly a lot more often (I did my Sunguidance project using Staged D12 power in a BT-60 rocket. Others doing Arduino type guidance today use 2 to 2.6" with up to F power, maybe G, though many could build lighter than they chose to and keep the costs lower). And if the ultimate bad thing happens in testing, crash under power, it's not a big big rocket that it happened with (good feature about your design is there's no active steering of the flight path until after first stage burnout. So if it "went nuts" after booster sep it could not make the rocket veer into the ground. And IIRC you have a stage ignition lockout if it got way way off vertical before staging?).

Even vonBraun did not START with the V-2..... :)
 
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OR....
One could add a twin flywheel roll control unit that is autonomous with respect to the yaw/pitch control.
Just leave the unit running at all times in the sustainer and let it correct for aerodynamic roll as well as control-surface roll coupling.
 
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