BP for Estes PSII

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Paul

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I just bought the Estes PSII bundle. I started the Argent and see that you can go with either BP or composite. I can get the BP at HL for the attractive 40% off. They use to carry composite motors but not anymore, at least at the store near me. What is anyone's experience using BP motors on these rockets? I know the composites are probably the way to go, but the hazmat adds up. I've read about buying at club launches, but there is no club I've found close to me.
 
the builder psII kits are a bit heavy for the BP motors. according to Apogee, they can fit 6 motors into a box for shipping that reduces the per motor hazmat to 1/6(the fee is per box, not necessarily per motor).
Rex
 
Paul... Look at an AT 29/40-120 case. They have a ton of $12 G motor reloads ($10 or so from Wildman). No Hazmat on most of 'em. The case is a little pricey ($40) but well worth it. :)
 
As others have said, the F15 and E16 are probably too heavy for the Argent. The Ventris will fly on them, but marginally. I'd recommend leaving the motor block out on the Argent so you have the option to fly large G's and H's, if you want.

I second the 29/40-120, should work great for E-G.
 
I often fly my Leviathan on single-use EconoJet F motors, which ship without Hazmat (hence "econo"). They come in four different propellants --- white, black, red, and fast. Two-packs were about $27 the last time I got them at Hobbylinc. And now there are also EconoMax G74 motors that I believe are supposed to not require hazmat. Those will all work in any PSII kit, except the MDRM.

Most single-use F and G motors use more propellant and require hazmat, but the econos are all right under the limit.
 
If you use a F15 for that, you really need the F15-4 which Hobby Lobby doesn't carry. Plus a 6 foot rod or rail and light winds.

P.S.: as well as the RMS G's which ship w/o Hazmat, there's the LMS ones, which actually are slightly worse to load (think RMS and add epoxy and CA, although skip the tape and cleanup), for the same price as regular single use at the vendors that carry them.
 
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I often fly my Leviathan on single-use EconoJet F motors, which ship without Hazmat (hence "econo"). They come in four different propellants --- white, black, red, and fast. Two-packs were about $27 the last time I got them at Hobbylinc. And now there are also EconoMax G74 motors that I believe are supposed to not require hazmat. Those will all work in any PSII kit, except the MDRM.

Most single-use F and G motors use more propellant and require hazmat, but the econos are all right under the limit.
Unfortunately, the G74s actually do require hazmat, but at $16-$26 for a two pack they are still a great deal. The G74-4s should be usable in the MDRM (and other similar weight rockets like the BAR Crayon and G-force) and I may try a G74-6 in the MDRM as the delay isn't too long.
 
Unfortunately, the G74s actually do require hazmat, but at $16-$26 for a two pack they are still a great deal. The G74-4s should be usable in the MDRM (and other similar weight rockets like the BAR Crayon and G-force) and I may try a G74-6 in the MDRM as the delay isn't too long.

I just checked a couple of sites that sell G74's, and you are correct --- they are all charging hazmat on G74 motors. I thought they were supposed to be hazmat free, but the only ones I've tried were from an onsite vendor, so I hadn't had that reality check yet. Still, as you said, they are a pretty good deal for a single-use G. Price per pack is actually less than the Econojets.
 
Read the recommended motor list on the instructions before you select your motors. The original Estes PSII line was designed to be flown with the Estes (relabeled AT) 29 mm APCP motors. The 29 mm Estes BP motors do not have enough thrust to keep the pointy end up in a fair breeze for the original PSII product line but the lighter 2" diameter E2X rockets can be flown successfully in calm to light wind conditions with the 29 mm Estes BP motors.....

Bob
 
Thanks for all the advice. I'm heading in the right direction now!
 
Read the recommended motor list on the instructions before you select your motors. The original Estes PSII line was designed to be flown with the Estes (relabeled AT) 29 mm APCP motors. The 29 mm Estes BP motors do not have enough thrust to keep the pointy end up in a fair breeze for the original PSII product line but the lighter 2" diameter E2X rockets can be flown successfully in calm to light wind conditions with the 29 mm Estes BP motors.....

Bob

Bob, I have not seen any of the more recent packaging myself, but I think I heard the new face cards do list the BP motors. They aren't listed on the website descriptions, and I don't know about the instructions, but I think they may be on the face cards.
 
Bob, I have not seen any of the more recent packaging myself, but I think I heard the new face cards do list the BP motors. They aren't listed on the website descriptions, and I don't know about the instructions, but I think they may be on the face cards.
Goto the Estes Website. https://www.estesrockets.com/rockets/pro-series/rockets Click Learn More for each rocket. Page down to the Technical Specifications.

All the Pro Series II kits recommended motors are 29 mm Estes (AT) APCP motors.

All the Pro Series II E2X kits recommended motors are 29 mm Estes BP motors.

Bob
 
Goto the Estes Website. https://www.estesrockets.com/rockets/pro-series/rockets Click Learn More for each rocket. Page down to the Technical Specifications.

All the Pro Series II kits recommended motors are 29 mm Estes (AT) APCP motors.

All the Pro Series II E2X kits recommended motors are 29 mm Estes BP motors.

Bob

Yes, I know. But I'm telling you I think I recall someone telling me their face card for a builder kit had BP motors listed that are not in the recommended motors list on the website. I might be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure I remember checking my own face cards for the same rocket, and verifying that mine did not list BP motors, but another member posted a pic of their own, and it did show the BP motors. Again, this may be just a figment of my hazy memory, but I'll check to see if I can find it again. In the meantime, maybe the OP can say what was indicated in their own instructions and face card that led them to ask this question.
 
You really should actually buy one, open it and read the instructions.:wink:

Or, you can keep clicking on the Estes website and you will find the instructions for the Pro Series II E2X kits. They recommend 29mm BP AND composite motors.
https://www.estesrockets.com/media/instructions/009706_ASCENDER.pdf


Goto the Estes Website. https://www.estesrockets.com/rockets/pro-series/rockets Click Learn More for each rocket. Page down to the Technical Specifications.

All the Pro Series II kits recommended motors are 29 mm Estes (AT) APCP motors.

All the Pro Series II E2X kits recommended motors are 29 mm Estes BP motors.

Bob
 
You really should actually buy one, open it and read the instructions.:wink:

Or, you can keep clicking on the Estes website and you will find the instructions for the Pro Series II E2X kits. They recommend 29mm BP AND composite motors.
https://www.estesrockets.com/media/instructions/009706_ASCENDER.pdf

I did look at the directions for the recommended motors and I stand by what I wrote.

In the E2X Ascender directions https://www.estesrockets.com/media/instructions/009706_ASCENDER.pdf the recommended motors are the 29 mm BP motors. It also states "You may also use Estes Composite motors.....". Why, because if the thrust to weight ratio is ok with the BP motor are ok, it will only be better with the composite motors. And they don't care if you loose it because it drifted away.

In the Estes Pro Series II Ventris Instructions https://www.estesrockets.com/media/instructions/009701_VENTRIS.pdf the recommended motors are the Estes Pro Series II motors composite motors. There is no mention of the Estes BP motors in these instructions. Why don't they mention the BP motors here? Most likely because the thrust to weight ratio of the BP motors is insufficient to make a stable flight under windy conditions and it is likely to result in the loss of the rocket due to insufficient altitude for deployment.

Bob
 
I've searched for some time for the thread in which I think I remembered a member posting that the facecard on their PSII builder kit listed the black powder motors, even though they were not listed in the instructions or on the Estes website. I could not find the thread. So either it was just part of the imaginary world that makes up my rich inner universe where many strange things are possible, or the search function sucks. Either way, I'm done looking.

Can the OP or anyone else say whether they have seen such a facecard?
 
Why don't they mention the BP motors here

BP motors are NOT mentioned in the Pro Series builder kits because the BP motors were not yet available when the kits came out. One of the last steps in building these models is that a engine block can be glued in place if needed. Since I knew the BP motors would eventual come out, a motor block was included in each kit. What I do is install the motor block so a G80 composite motor can be used. When the 29mm BP is used you simple slide in the Orange Spacer and go fly. As I've stated else where before, all the builder kits have been flown on the Estes 29mm BP motors except for the Mega Max. I would only use the 4 second delay. If you over build and put a show room finish on the model yours might be to heavy to fly with BP motors.


John Boren
 
BP motors are NOT mentioned in the Pro Series builder kits because the BP motors were not yet available when the kits came out. One of the last steps in building these models is that a engine block can be glued in place if needed. Since I knew the BP motors would eventual come out, a motor block was included in each kit. What I do is install the motor block so a G80 composite motor can be used. When the 29mm BP is used you simple slide in the Orange Spacer and go fly. As I've stated else where before, all the builder kits have been flown on the Estes 29mm BP motors except for the Mega Max. I would only use the 4 second delay. If you over build and put a show room finish on the model yours might be to heavy to fly with BP motors.


John Boren
I have great respect for you and Estes, but just because a professional Estes builder successfully flew some prototypes on Estes 29 mm BP motors, it's a bit of a stretch to assume the average John Q Public builder will have the same results under typical range conditions.

A good example of this is the Estes Maxi-V2 which was a great kit in the hands of a knowledgeable, experienced flyer, especially when flown on 24 mm composites, but I have seen more Maxi-V2s reduced to trash because the owner decided to launch with largest recommended Estes motor of the day, the E-9. Launching the Maxi-V2 on an E-9 in any more than a light breeze is dicey and would inevitably result in severe weathercocking, usually impacting the ground at high speed before the ejection charge went off. If the owner was lucky, the rocket simply land-sharked but more often it went up a bit higher and landed more vertically and got trashed. Ironically it flew well on a D12 because the lift-off thrust is significantly higher..... At the time the Maxi-V2 was Estes' most expensive rocket so crashing it turned quite a few folks away from Estes.

In an earlier post you asked some one to start a thread on what Estes should produce in the future and that thread is located at https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...d-on-what-people-believe-Estes-should-produce Making great kits, which is what Estes is currently doing, is the way to go. Conversely, recommending or implying that "Pro" kits, which are likely to be overbuilt and heavier than your prototypes, can be flown on your BP motors without a printed warning in the instructions that "If you over build and put a show room finish on the model yours might be to heavy to fly with BP motors." is a sure way to discourage your newer customers because more often then not they'll crash their rockets follow your (implied) recommendation.

Bob
 
Bob,


Others have also built and flown the Pro Series builder kits with Estes BP motors but everyone needs to do what they feel is best. By the way on Sunday at NARAM 56 I flew a 22.4 ounce Honest John with a F15-4 motor. Even in the winds we had that day it flew perfect. Not all rockets are equal, some fly better then others.

John Boren


John Boren
 
I've searched for some time for the thread in which I think I remembered a member posting that the facecard on their PSII builder kit listed the black powder motors, even though they were not listed in the instructions or on the Estes website. I could not find the thread. So either it was just part of the imaginary world that makes up my rich inner universe where many strange things are possible, or the search function sucks. Either way, I'm done looking.

Can the OP or anyone else say whether they have seen such a facecard?

The only place I THINK have seen anything to do with Flying PSII kits on Estes BP motors was on the comparison of performances on the AeroTech F44 face card for the 2 motor bubble pack. Flying PS II on 29mm Estes BP is exciting! Flying PS II on the first release of the CATO prone AT SU F44 is also exciting! You are not crazy!
 
Bob,


Others have also built and flown the Pro Series builder kits with Estes BP motors but everyone needs to do what they feel is best. By the way on Sunday at NARAM 56 I flew a 22.4 ounce Honest John with a F15-4 motor. Even in the winds we had that day it flew perfect. Not all rockets are equal, some fly better then others.

John Boren


John Boren

John, was this an Honest John R&D for a future release as a PSII Kit?
 
I did not actually see this but I heard at the club (HEARSAY) that a dude could not get the 29mm AT SU motor in his PS II. He peeled the label off to find an old white Estes one underneath! The only thing to do in that situation is to sing out loud the old Tammy Wynette song D-I-V-O-R-C-E.
 
John, was this an Honest John R&D for a future release as a PSII Kit?

It was something I was working on to bring out along with a PS II version of a 4" Pershing 1A. The Pershing took almost a pound of weight in the nose to make it stable, so it will never be released. As for the Honest John, maybe one day but don't hold your breath. I showed the Honest John during the manufactures portion of NARAM 56, so it might be on video some where.

John Boren
 
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It was something I was working on to bring out along with a PS II version of a 4" Pershing 1A. The Pershing took almost a pound of weight in the nose to make it stable, so it will never be released. As the Honest John, maybe one day but don't hold your breath. I showed the Honest John during the manufactures portion of NARAM 56, so it might be on video some where.

John Boren

A whole pound of stinking. performance robbing nose weight in the Pershing 1A:y: It would take a whole 29mm BP motor just to lift that. The idiot factor on that kit would be enormous:eyepop: Maybe just a nose cone could be made available?

The Honest John was AWESOME! If that bad boy came out as a kit all the old BARS would do this::marshmallow:
 
I flew an Argent at NARAM-56 with a 29 mm BP engine. I can't remember if it was the E or the F. Great flight, no problems whatsoever.
 
Here is the You Tube link to the Manufactures Forum at NARAM 56. I talk and show the Honest John at the 24 min mark. I wouldn't mind seeing a flight video of it if someone knows were to find it. The flight took place on Sunday at NARAM.

[video=youtube;ccxMD-SqkKE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccxMD-SqkKE[/video]



John Boren
 
When the 29mm BP is used you simple slide in the Orange Spacer and go fly.
John, this is decidedly off-topic, but is it possible to obtain the Orange Spacer, or the 24mm Red Spacer, in small numbers without buying, say, the Estes #303143 - Engine Hook Accessory Pack?
I have more than one rocket that I could use Red Spacers in, but I don't have any.

To be on-topic, I have only ever used BP motors, so I would be inclined to use them in PS II kits unless they are either not mentioned in the instructions or really should not be used.
 
I will suggest to Estes that we come out with a accessory pack of both the 24mm and 29mm orange spacers. In the mean time the easiest thing to do would be to simply cut some spacers from spent motor casings.



John Boren
 
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