NFL championship day

As a physician, I am taught to read nonverbal cues. His nonverbal communication clearly indicates deception of some kind.

The NFL needs to address this or it will lose major face with fans.

sooner.boomer said:

I'm challenging you on your math. The air pressure supposedly dropped from 12.5 to 10.5 and there was only a temperature drop of about 11 degrees (F). Why did only *some* of the NE balls lose pressure, and NONE of the other team's? Show me the math!

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Rut Row! This is

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Rob Campbell said:

Rut Row! This is

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You can say that again. I guess the balls from Indy were immune to the effects of weather.

cwbullet said:

The NFL needs to address this or it will lose major face with fans.

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I've never been much of a football fan so I don't much care about the games or their outcomes. Living where I live, I can't avoid the overblown discussion this past week (pun intended).

If the family violence and concussion issues haven't made the NFL lose face with their fans, yet another Patriots' cheating accusation isn't going to have too much effect.

KennB said:

I've never been much of a football fan so I don't much care about the games or their outcomes. Living where I live, I can't avoid the overblown discussion this past week (pun intended).

If the family violence and concussion issues haven't made the NFL lose face with their fans, yet another Patriots' cheating accusation isn't going to have too much effect.

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Beat the snot out of your wife, girlfriend or child and all is forgiven, by the fans at least, if you just make that game winning catch/touchdown.

Oh you might get fined .001% of your yearly contract amount but if you say you are really, really sorry and take an anger management class then you can expect to get a multi-million dollar raise in your next contract deal so who cares about a measly $50,000 fine, heck they blow that amount each month on Blow.

I have lost most of my interest in college and professional sports. It is too much about the $$$$.

Rob Campbell said:

Rut Row! This is

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My post sounded a bit more confrontational than I had intended. Sorry about that, didn't mean it that way. I still do not think the math will support the claim (I guess I'm actually gonna have to get offn my butt and do the math myself...).

sooner.boomer said:

My post sounded a bit more confrontational than I had intended. Sorry about that, didn't mean it that way. I still do not think the math will support the claim (I guess I'm actually gonna have to get offn my butt and do the math myself...).

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No need to apologize. My post was intended as humor and I remembered "Johnny Dangerously".

cwbullet said:

I have lost most of my interest in college and professional sports. It is too much about the $$$$.

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I used to be a big NASCAR fan, not anymore they managed to screw that up to. It is no longer about who drove the best during the year and deserves the championship, but who is the luckiest during the last 10 races, and how many fights between drivers.

The math.

from the equation

pres1/temp1=pres2/temp2

doing a little algebra

(pres1/temp1) X temp2 = pres2

and given the values room temp=70F/21.11C initial pressure=12.5psi ending (game) temp=51F/10.6C

we insert the values, converted to SI (Pascals and Kelvins)

(86,184.5 Pa / 294.3 K) X 283.7 K = 83,080.3 Pa or 12.05 psi

not the 2 psi drop measured.

...but Boomer... it was windy, and wet, surely the wind chill had some effect? No. wind chill is a human perception. There would be minimal evaporative cooling in any case. But let's play with your delusions. Just how cold would it need to be to drop the pressure by 2 psi , to the measured 10.5 psi?

again, doing a little algebra

pres2 / (pres1/temp1) = temp2

72,394.95 Pa / (86,184.5 Pa / 294.3 K) = 274.21 K or 34F

sooner.boomer said:

The math.

from the equation

pres1/temp1=pres2/temp2

doing a little algebra

(pres1/temp1) X temp2 = pres2

and given the values room temp=70F/21.11C initial pressure=12.5psi ending (game) temp=51F/10.6C

we insert the values, converted to SI (Pascals and Kelvins)

(86,184.5 Pa / 294.3 K) X 283.7 K = 83,080.3 Pa or 12.05 psi

not the 2 psi drop measured.

...but Boomer... it was windy, and wet, surely the wind chill had some effect? No. wind chill is a human perception. There would be minimal evaporative cooling in any case. But let's play with your delusions. Just how cold would it need to be to drop the pressure by 2 psi , to the measured 10.5 psi?

again, doing a little algebra

pres2 / (pres1/temp1) = temp2

72,394.95 Pa / (86,184.5 Pa / 294.3 K) = 274.21 K or 34F

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You are using psid which is the pressure with respect to atmospheric pressure, not the absolute pressure, psia! psia = psid +14.7 psi so 12.5 psid = 27.2 psia

The volume contraction due to temperature in a rigid container is T2/T1 = 283.7/294.3 = 0.963 so if these are the correct temperature (you assumed 70 F was the locker room temperature and the temperature in the first half dropped during the first half. The pressure drop for dry air is 0.963 x 27.2 = 26.2 = -1 psi.

But that's not all. The balls are will with room air which contains water vapor. The balls are filled above atmospheric pressure and most likely several times and the bladders inside the balls are not dry. This means the air inside the bladder is saturated with water vapor. The vapor pressure of water is temperature dependent and is independent of the air pressure as nitrogen, oxygen, argon and carbon dioxide are all gases at these temperatures but water is both a gas and a liquid. At 70 F the vapor pressure of water is 0.37 psia and at 51 F is 0.19 psia which is a loss of an additional -0.18 psi ~ 0.2 psi.

Now you have a pressure loss of -1.2 psi not 0.45 psi and that does not even consider the stretching of leather when it gets wet which will increase the physical internal volume of the bladder and further reduce the internal pressure.

I saw references that the locker room temperature was 80 F, not 70 F. And while the temperature was dropping into the high 40's the dew point was about 46 F at half time. This is important because if the ball is wet, the water absorbed into the leather will evaporate and cool the leather to the dew point. Under these condition, the pressure change would be -2.03 psi, -1.71 psi due to the temperature contraction of the non-condensable gases in the bladder and -0.35 psi due to the condensation of water vapor in the bladder. This does not include any increase in the physical volume of the football due to the leather stretching due to water absorption.

If you want to calculate the internal pressure drop, you have to use the proper temperatures and include the water vapor inside the bladder.

Bob

billspad said:

Footballs should be tested at 70F at sea level. Do you think you could slap together a testing manual for the NFL?

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We could do that however I'm not use they could read and/or understand it. You can download the testing procedure from the NFL website. There is no mention of temperature, humidity, or requirement for holding the balls at a constant temperature and humidity for a fixed time before you make the measurement. Nor are there any specifications on the precision and accuracy of the pressure gauges, or the lubrication of the needle that gets inserted into the ball. It more of a get it done versus a standard procedure......

Bob

Bill Nye the Science Guy is calling Belicheat's bluff.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2341682-bill-nye-the-science-guy-reacts-to-bill-belichicks-response-to-deflategate?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=programming-national

Also, who keeps the locker room at 80F? That's just cruel.

bobkrech said:

We could do that however I'm not use they could read and/or understand it. You can download the testing procedure from the NFL website. There is no mention of temperature, humidity, or requirement for holding the balls at a constant temperature and humidity for a fixed time before you make the measurement. Nor are there any specifications on the precision and accuracy of the pressure gauges, or the lubrication of the needle that gets inserted into the ball. It more of a get it done versus a standard procedure......

Bob

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S & T should take this on. Right after we finish the altimeter testing.:eyeroll:

jmattingly13 said:

Bill Nye the Science Guy is calling Belicheat's bluff.

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I don't really know as how I'd trust Nye. Beakman (and Lester!), yes; Nye, not so much.

And, yeah, 80F for the locker room? [citation required]

Bill Nye the Science Guy is calling Belicheat's bluff.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2...mming-national

Also, who keeps the locker room at 80F? That's just cruel.

It would appear the science guy didn't do the math and didn't think it fully through. Two major variables that control pis measurements are altitude and temperature. Without the need to do the math, if you read your automobile maintenance manual, it tells you the tire pressure specifications should be checked when the tires are cold. The reason being if you test the tire pressure shortly after driving at highway speeds the pressure reading will be high. No one disputes it was colder out side at game time than it was in the equipment room, when the officials checked the footballs. The coach appears to have a better understanding of the science than the "science guy". The mystery is why Colts footballs didn't also have lower pis...or it could be a conspiracy to explain the 45-7 loss???

chadrog said:

Had the packer coaching staff pulled out all the stops and played a championship game as a championship game should have been played, there would have been no coin toss.

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+1

Should have played the whole game with an aggressive attitude. Kicking field goals against Seattle was stupid. 16-0 is not a winning score against them. Playoffs go to the "Bold". Seattle proved that!

Mike

I should think that the NFL ought to move to a ball policy more like Major League Baseball. The teams provide the balls at the beginning of the game but all of the balls that are not in play remain in the control of the officials during the game.

(At least I think that's how the the MLB does it.)

Obviously there was some cheating occurring on the part of the “Patriots”; but does anybody really think that that made a difference with regards to the outcome of the game?

The Colts got shellacked both offensively as well as defensively it was like watching a Big Ten College team vs a Middle School team.

Brady could have been using a concrete football and they still would have won.

Which is the real tragedy with this story, the cheating wasn’t necessary in the least.