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Mr G

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Having read Nathan's excellent thread (https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...-The-Magg-(or-How-I-Spent-My-Summer-Vacation) on painting and polishing his Mini Magg, an attempt to emulate the results has begun. But first some questions -

There is no local access to Sonus products. Would Meguiar's Swirl Remover and Ultimate Polish work as well?

We're not all pros when it comes to masking and having a little overrun on the finish color coat is typical. After carefully picking at it with an X-Acto knife there is still some left. Will the swirl remover take up any of this?
IMG_2754.jpg IMG_2758.jpg
 
I do a lot of auto paint correction/ detailing and use all megs products.if the swirl remover referred to is the mirror glaze 2.0 swirl remover it is A very light diminishing abrasive polish,meaning it is intended more for surface mars and surface cleaning. But it might work. To find out do an area then wipe it down with IPA after. That will remove and residue and you'll be able to see the results.
The ultimate polish is good stuff and can add depth. I use to use it but switched to M21 glaze. There's also a #7 glaze that works real good at giving depth.
Good job on the paint job. Iffen that's fresh paint I'd suggest not puttin any wax on it for a while. It needs to off has and cure and wax will seal it and not allow that to happen.

This link should go to a chart of aggressiveness scale for various company products and Meg's is down in there a bit
https://www.auto-geek.net/charts/wax-cut-chart-master.htm
 
You need to clear coat it, or have VERY thick color coat. Lightly sand the transition to ease the bump but be careful not to ruin it. The clear coat must dry for at least 2 weeks before you polish it otherwise the result will be less than perfect. If you are using 2k clear then you can polish in a couple of days. You'll want multiple coats of clear, at least 9 coats if you are using lacquer, 3 if using 2k.
 
Meguiar's will work. As everyone has mentioned make sure you have a clear coat on the rocket. I usually have 5-6 coats before I wet sand and polish. You want to use maybe a 1000 grit and then work your way down to 2000. After that begin the polishing process.
 
No clear coat has been applied and the paint has been drying for over a week.

It is not clear why one would not use the swirl remover and polish directly on the paint. Nathan's thread appeared to show doing it that way. Is there some drawback to doing it that way?
 
paint is full of pigment and therefore does not polish very well. Furthermore it's not nearly as hard as the clear coat.
 
No clear coat has been applied and the paint has been drying for over a week.

It is not clear why one would not use the swirl remover and polish directly on the paint. Nathan's thread appeared to show doing it that way. Is there some drawback to doing it that way?

You can do it that way, but it will take some elbow grease. I would use maybe something like a #2 first and then follow with #3 or #9 the #2 will "cut" a little faster and get rid of the sanding marks a lot quicker than #3
 
I think Fender had guitars without clear coats simply because they were pressed for time. They don't yellow as much as the clear coated ones. However the reason you clear coat is because color coats tend to cost more than clears, and if you have 1 or 2 coats of color (which is all it takes to get good coverage), you will rub right through it.
 
it is possible to polish the dryed color coat to a very high degree with 3m finessit-II (Not shown on the previously attached Chart) as it is not really a rubbing compound. It is a super fine polishing medium. I use it often before applying Future as I Never Rattle Can clear coat my entire models anymore do to the brittle chip and flaking that occurs within a year or so of application.

After spending a little time with Finessit-II it's possible to forgo the Future as well. Let the freshly Polished painted surface outgas about a week then apply a coat or two of NU-Finish Polymer is all thats needed for a super hi gloss super slick shine. this is how I prepare competition Cluster altitude models without adding much additional mass from the paint or polish.

Nu-Finish-sm_ & Finessit-II(96dpi)_08-17-06.jpg

673a-sm_Scout-1D Decaled Complete_02-10-08.jpg

672a-sm_Orion (Kc-8) Decaled & Complete_02-10-08.jpg
 
Today's pigment or colors do not have any UV protection in them, especially the base coat/clear coats. Clear does.
Most everything is clear coated these days unless it's a restoration being done with coating of the time the vehicle was made.
Not many do that anymore as todays finishes are far suppior to those of the past.
I'd 1000 grit wet sand it and clear it.
 
Today's pigment or colors do not have any UV protection in them, especially the base coat/clear coats. Clear does.
Most everything is clear coated these days unless it's a restoration being done with coating of the time the vehicle was made.
Not many do that anymore as todays finishes are far suppior to those of the past.
I'd 1000 grit wet sand it and clear it.

Sorry to disagree Woody:
While you are correct that many of the Base Coat /Clear Coat Automotive systems today do not have UV inhibitors in the Base color coat As an Old Sign Painter who use a lot of Automotive Urethane and polyurethane Base coat/ Clear coat paints at work, I can tell you with very few exceptions; Nearly all currently available rattle can clears on the market today have 0% UV inhibitors. There are a couple exceptions: Krylon 1305 Gloss and 1309 Matte UV Resistant Clears are excellent but fairly expensive, Rustoleum and Dupli-color also have a UV resistant Gloss clear but I have only limited experience with either.

Most Model LPR and MPR Rocketeers I know do not use Automotive grade base cost/clear coat urethanes systems on their models as they are both expensive and dangerous to use without forced Air masks and a decent spray booth.

The trouble with the majority of Rattle can Clear coats is they become very brittle quickly after application. those with 0% UV inhibitors will start to yellow within a year and through normal transport, handling and flying they will chip and flake sometimes taking part of the decals and Paint they were originally applied to protect. Much better for our decals and paint finish it to use an Acrylic coating of Pledge with future or a Polymer based Wax like NU-Finish.
 
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Nitrocellulose always become brittle with time... it's the nature of the beast. Unfortunately if you want heat resistance only thing that works is those moly based baked on paints.
 
paint is full of pigment and therefore does not polish very well. Furthermore it's not nearly as hard as the clear coat.

It is possible to buff up paint that doesn't have a clear over it( which is called a single stage which is base clear in one which is what rattle cans are) to a nice gloss with a few considerations. First it has to be a solid color. If it has metallics in it, color sanding will be sandingmonmthe metallic that is used to create the metallic effect. And buffing with no color sanding can still hit the metallics.
If the mil thickness of the paint is too thin and the product being used to buff/polish is too aggressive it can cut through the paint.

The Meg's swirl remover isn't very aggressive and ive used it to clean a surface or remove marring on paint.
As far as for working a color sanded surface up to a gloss( which is basically a process of refining the scratch pattern left from color sanding) I'm not sure the swirl remover will work too good as its not that aggressive. At least I havent had any luck refining after color sanding and that's after color sanding with 2000 grit.

If the paint isn't a gloss paint- if it is a satin or a reaction occurred to alter the gloss no amount of buffing will,make it shine.
 
Thanks for all the info, guys.

I ended up starting down this finishing path simply rubbing down both rockets with some of the Meguiar's swirl remover (Mirror Glaze, No. 7). It didn't remove any imperfections but it did take up a bunch of dirty fingerprints, created more uniform color and added depth.
IMG_2810_2.jpg
If they don't clean up easily after the next launch I may consider waxing them. There is a time/value quotient that leans toward more flying and less finishing so I don't want to put in too much effort for diminishing returns.
 

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I have a rocket that I've painted with Rustoleum Stops Rust Metallic. The rocket has four different colors on it, and they are all in this metallic paint which has a metal flake type appearance. I've added a few layers of Rustoleum Stops Rust Crystal Clear Enamel over the metallic, and is has really enhanced the finish a lot, adding a lot of depth to the metal flake finish. The issue is that some parts of the rocket do not seem as shiny and glossy as others. I can't seem to get the WHOLE rocket uniformly glossy. I feel like what happens is that as I add the clear coat, I can get a good glossy surface in the areas I am focusing on, but the overspray that just mists onto other areas of the rocket leaves a surface that is not perfectly smooth and glossy. So there is always some area that seems textured in a way that takes away from the shine.

So first, is there a painting technique to getting a uniformly glossy finish with clear coat? This rocket is a 4" airframe with big fins and pods, so it is big enough and awkward enough that it is hard to get it all painted wet at the same time. If I just keep adding clear, will it eventually level the surface to a nice gloss?

Or is this something that can't be fixed with a painting technique, and I need to sand or polish the surface? I've never done any wet sanding or polishing on any of my rockets.

Any advice would be helpful. I'm not looking for a perfect finish, and in fact this rocket has already been flown several times, so it has a few dings I'm not going to fix. But if it wasn't to much expensive or time-consuming, I'd like to get the shine as uniform as possible.
 
With something that big, getting good wet coverage with rattlecans is going to be impossible. Your best bet will be a spray gun with a large paint cup. Retarders can be added to slow the drying of the paint in order to give time for the paint to flow...

Honestly most big rockets (commercial/NASA) do not have a gloss finish...
 
With something that big, getting good wet coverage with rattlecans is going to be impossible. Your best bet will be a spray gun with a large paint cup. Retarders can be added to slow the drying of the paint in order to give time for the paint to flow...

Honestly most big rockets (commercial/NASA) do not have a gloss finish...

Thanks. I'm probably not going to invest in a spray gun for painting rockets. I really don't paint enough to justify it. And if I ever do any scale rockets, I'll bear in mind the fact that they don't need a glossy finish.

What I'm looking for right now is how to improve the rocket that I have, without the expense of new equipment and without changing direction completely to a totally different finish. Can the rougher areas by improved with some wet sanding and/or polish? If it's a sure thing, then I'll give it a try. What I worry about is ruining what I already have by trying to improve it.
 
Yes you can sand out the oversprays by sanding and polishing, but it will be tedious. A buffing machine will make things 10000 times easier. Make sure you build up a thick coat and let it cure for at least a month before you start. Partially cured finish tends to gum up sandpapers and your fingerprints will imprint the finish as well. Or else you risk sand through.

But having a good smooth coat will also simplify the sanding and polishing step by 1000 times as well. When I painted guitars (which requires polishing all the time) I always laid down a smooth coat for that reason, even though sometimes the coats look good enough without polish on its own (except lacquer shrinks as it out gasses and will not look so good until polished)
 
Just noticed this thread...

Having read Nathan's excellent thread (https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...-The-Magg-(or-How-I-Spent-My-Summer-Vacation) on painting and polishing his Mini Magg, an attempt to emulate the results has begun. But first some questions -

There is no local access to Sonus products. Would Meguiar's Swirl Remover and Ultimate Polish work as well?

We're not all pros when it comes to masking and having a little overrun on the finish color coat is typical. After carefully picking at it with an X-Acto knife there is still some left. Will the swirl remover take up any of this?

Thanks, I get my Sonus products from autogeek.net. I think the Meguiar's products should work just as well. Swirl Remover will clean up minor overspray but I don't think it will repair a bad masking job.

No clear coat has been applied and the paint has been drying for over a week.

It is not clear why one would not use the swirl remover and polish directly on the paint. Nathan's thread appeared to show doing it that way. Is there some drawback to doing it that way?

That's correct, my Minie Magg had NO CLEAR COAT. I wet sanded and polished the enamel color coat. Clear coat is necessary to get a high gloss finish when using lacquer but it's optional with enamel. Enamel creates a very hard finish that polishes up nicely.

I lost the Magg last year when it drifted into the woods, but I have another one in my build pile. I'll do another paint thread when I build it. I've been busy with a lot of non-rocketry stuff over the past year, but now I'M BACK!
 
Which enamel did you get? Most enamel I have seen takes eons to cure, and it's still rubbery even when fully cured. You must be using catalyzed enamel.
 
Which enamel did you get? Most enamel I have seen takes eons to cure, and it's still rubbery even when fully cured. You must be using catalyzed enamel.

It was ordinary Duplicolor rattle can enamel. It does take a long time (weeks) to fully cure but it gets very hard.
 
The Rustoleum metallics and clear coat that I am using is different from any other paint I have used. It says it is dry to the touch in 15 minutes and fully dry in 30. That is much much faster than any other paint I have ever used, but it seems to be mostly true. It's not 100% cured that fast, because I did get some tape marks when I tried to mask in less that a full day, but it does seem to cure pretty quickly. Does anyone have any experience with wet sanding or polishing these particular paints? Do they require the weeks or months cure time before sanding or polishing?
 
Some Rustoleum is lacquer. If it says dries to touch in 15 minutes it's lacquer. Also lack of a recoat window is a clue too.

Lacquer needs some time to fully dry as well... the solvent takes time to flash off. The more coat used, the longer cure time needed.
 
Some Rustoleum is lacquer. If it says dries to touch in 15 minutes it's lacquer. Also lack of a recoat window is a clue too.

Lacquer needs some time to fully dry as well... the solvent takes time to flash off. The more coat used, the longer cure time needed.

The label for the clear coat says enamel and does not mention lacquer. I don't have the metallic cans accessible at the moment. But all of these paints do have a very short dry time and can be recoated at any time.

Here's the product page for the clear: https://www.rustoleum.com/product-catalog/consumer-brands/stops-rust/crystal-clear-enamel/

Here's the product page for the metallic: https://www.rustoleum.com/product-catalog/consumer-brands/stops-rust/metallic

Are these lacquer or enamel, or is there overlap in these terms? If this info is any help, how long should I wait before trying any kind of sanding or polish? What kind of products should I use? I won't be buying any equipment, so I'm interested in techniques I can do by hand.
 
I think sometimes the term gets confused. You can tell by smelling its fumes anyways. Lacquer has a totally different fume than enamel. Enamel means alkyd based paints, and like I have said they take eons to cure and don't cure very hard, and has strict recoat windows that if not followed will result in wrinkling. Lacquer is solids dissolved in solvent (such as acetone, xylene, toulene, etc.) that "cures" purely by evaporation only. So they have no recoat window and only cures when the solvent evaporates completely, which can sometimes take a while.
 
I think sometimes the term gets confused. You can tell by smelling its fumes anyways. Lacquer has a totally different fume than enamel. Enamel means alkyd based paints, and like I have said they take eons to cure and don't cure very hard, and has strict recoat windows that if not followed will result in wrinkling. Lacquer is solids dissolved in solvent (such as acetone, xylene, toulene, etc.) that "cures" purely by evaporation only. So they have no recoat window and only cures when the solvent evaporates completely, which can sometimes take a while.

It seems like even though the clear says right on the can Enamel, the characteristics are much more like what you are describing for Lacquer. And the Metallic is very similar in characteristics too. These two are extremely compatible, so I think they are basically the same, with the metallics being the same formula as the clear with the addition of the tint and metal flakes. These paints do have a different smell compared to enamel paints that I have used, with a more fruity aromatic solvent smell. These paints also seem to dry hard and tough. And they dry fast.
 
Enamels tend to smell "oily", like mineral spirit or something. Lacquers tend to have a sweet smell. Lacquer paint has a watery texture while enamels have an oily texture.
 
Maybe I'll just call Rustolem customer service and ask about these paints. If they are lacquer, does that affect how I would polish the rocket? Does it change the products I should use or the technique?
 
You can apply an enamel paint over a lacquer, but NOT a lacquer over an enamel-- the solvents in lacquers are "hotter" (evaporate faster because they're much more powerful solvents) than those used in enamels (which use "cooler", slower-evaporating solvents). Thus once the lacquer is fully cured, an enamel clear or secondary color coats can be applied over them with little/no risk, while applying a lacquer top-coat over an enamel substrate will almost always end up badly with the enamel re-dissolving from the lacquer's solvents and "alligatoring" the finish... Requiring all of it be cleaned off and start from scratch.

Yes, there is a lot of ambiguity in paints and stuff nowdays... in the old days, it was easy to tell a lacquer and an enamel apart, and they were pretty much 100% labeled as one or the other. Nowdays, I've found several different paints that NOWHERE on the can did it specifically tell the formulation of the paint. I had to "infer" it based on the recoat windows and drying times. Generally speaking, if it says "recoat within 30 minutes (or thereabouts) or after 24 hours (or thereabouts)" and "fully cured in 48 hours (or thereabouts) or 1 week (again thereabouts)", it's an ENAMEL. If it says "recoat anytime, fully cured in 24 hours" it's a LACQUER. USUALLY lacquers are labeled as such on the can, where enamels (being the standard paint now due to VOC regulations) often-times aren't labeled specifically as such anymore. The changes in formulations and materials used to make the different "sub-brands" (like "Painter's Touch, Fusion, etc." within a specific brand) further muddy the waters and blur the line between basic enamels and lacquers...

The main thing to remember is, IF IN DOUBT, ALWAYS DO A PAINT TEST! Better to find out that a chosen combination of materials will screw up badly during a paint test than on the final rocket...

BTW, Rustoleum and Duplicolor sell BOTH lacquer and enamel formulations, so BE CAREFUL-- just because the primer, paint, and clear are a given brand DOES NOT mean that they're compatible...

Good luck! OL JR :)
 
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