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You can apply an enamel paint over a lacquer, but NOT a lacquer over an enamel-- the solvents in lacquers are "hotter" (evaporate faster because they're much more powerful solvents) than those used in enamels (which use "cooler", slower-evaporating solvents). Thus once the lacquer is fully cured, an enamel clear or secondary color coats can be applied over them with little/no risk, while applying a lacquer top-coat over an enamel substrate will almost always end up badly with the enamel re-dissolving from the lacquer's solvents and "alligatoring" the finish... Requiring all of it be cleaned off and start from scratch.

Yes, there is a lot of ambiguity in paints and stuff nowdays... in the old days, it was easy to tell a lacquer and an enamel apart, and they were pretty much 100% labeled as one or the other. Nowdays, I've found several different paints that NOWHERE on the can did it specifically tell the formulation of the paint. I had to "infer" it based on the recoat windows and drying times. Generally speaking, if it says "recoat within 30 minutes (or thereabouts) or after 24 hours (or thereabouts)" and "fully cured in 48 hours (or thereabouts) or 1 week (again thereabouts)", it's an ENAMEL. If it says "recoat anytime, fully cured in 24 hours" it's a LACQUER. USUALLY lacquers are labeled as such on the can, where enamels (being the standard paint now due to VOC regulations) often-times aren't labeled specifically as such anymore. The changes in formulations and materials used to make the different "sub-brands" (like "Painter's Touch, Fusion, etc." within a specific brand) further muddy the waters and blur the line between basic enamels and lacquers...

The main thing to remember is, IF IN DOUBT, ALWAYS DO A PAINT TEST! Better to find out that a chosen combination of materials will screw up badly during a paint test than on the final rocket...

BTW, Rustoleum and Duplicolor sell BOTH lacquer and enamel formulations, so BE CAREFUL-- just because the primer, paint, and clear are a given brand DOES NOT mean that they're compatible...

Good luck! OL JR :)

I'm going to have to call and ask about these paints.

Here's a part of the history of this rocket that I did not relay earlier, and gets to your last point about compatibility within a given brand. Rustoleum has sub brands as well --- Painters Touch 2x, Stops Rust, etc. If I'm painting a rocket, I stick to a particular sub brand in the hope of having compatibility. Because the Metallics are all Stops Rust, I thought other Stops Rust paints would be compatible with them. Not necessarily true.

Months after the initial paint job with the Metallics, I wanted to add some more details, so I did a lot of masking and shot on some solid colored (non-metallic) Stops Rust over the Metallic. Everything looked fine, no odd reactions, bubbles or crazing. I let it cure for several days, maybe a week. When I went to pull off the tape, the new paint peeled off in perfect sheets. It had not adhered at all!

That was irritating, of course, but not a total disaster, because at least the paint didn't cause much damage other than a slight dulling of the surface of the metallic. I just cleaned it up, redid the masking, and shot the same exact design again using different colors of the Metallic. Solid colors would have worked better for some of the design elements, but it's fine. Now I've got the clear coat on, and I'd like to shine it up a bit. I'm just terrified of screwing it up now when it is 99.9% done...
 
You will want to scuff up the paint a little bit if you want to spray more over it. Reason being you want some tooth for the paint to grab onto. Especially if the paint cures chemically (not by evaporation) the new paint will not bite into the old one. Also you need to clean the surface too, and also AVOID SILICONE AT ALL COST!!! You will see why really fast if you got silicone on your painted surface, and it doesn't take very much at all.
 
I'm going to have to call and ask about these paints.

Here's a part of the history of this rocket that I did not relay earlier, and gets to your last point about compatibility within a given brand. Rustoleum has sub brands as well --- Painters Touch 2x, Stops Rust, etc. If I'm painting a rocket, I stick to a particular sub brand in the hope of having compatibility. Because the Metallics are all Stops Rust, I thought other Stops Rust paints would be compatible with them. Not necessarily true.

Months after the initial paint job with the Metallics, I wanted to add some more details, so I did a lot of masking and shot on some solid colored (non-metallic) Stops Rust over the Metallic. Everything looked fine, no odd reactions, bubbles or crazing. I let it cure for several days, maybe a week. When I went to pull off the tape, the new paint peeled off in perfect sheets. It had not adhered at all!

That was irritating, of course, but not a total disaster, because at least the paint didn't cause much damage other than a slight dulling of the surface of the metallic. I just cleaned it up, redid the masking, and shot the same exact design again using different colors of the Metallic. Solid colors would have worked better for some of the design elements, but it's fine. Now I've got the clear coat on, and I'd like to shine it up a bit. I'm just terrified of screwing it up now when it is 99.9% done...

I've had similar stuff happen a time or two with different materials...

If the paint peels off, its an adhesion problem... did you lightly sand the areas (take the shine off essentially to give the paint "tooth" so it can adhere to the earlier layers) before painting the subsequent coats??

Later! OL JR :)
 
I've had similar stuff happen a time or two with different materials...

If the paint peels off, its an adhesion problem... did you lightly sand the areas (take the shine off essentially to give the paint "tooth" so it can adhere to the earlier layers) before painting the subsequent coats??

Later! OL JR :)

I did not scuff it up. But I had already had the experience of shooting some different colored metallics over the same silver metallic when I first painted the rocket. I didn't scuff it then, and it worked perfectly. So I thought the other Stops Rust paints would adhere the same way. They definitely did not. And when I finally shot the other metallics on for the latest details, I didn't scuff then, and it worked great. These are just totally different paint types, both in the Stops Rust sub brand.
 
if its lacquer on top of lacquer then no scuffing is necessary because lacquer dissolves the coat below and blends in. But if the coat below is cured enamel, then the lacquer will not dissolve it but instead just sit over it, like epoxy over cured epoxy.
 
I did not scuff it up. But I had already had the experience of shooting some different colored metallics over the same silver metallic when I first painted the rocket. I didn't scuff it then, and it worked perfectly. So I thought the other Stops Rust paints would adhere the same way. They definitely did not. And when I finally shot the other metallics on for the latest details, I didn't scuff then, and it worked great. These are just totally different paint types, both in the Stops Rust sub brand.

Yep... sounds familiar...

There really is so much "blurring" in the different paint formulations nowdays that the old "lacquer vs. enamel" arguments are basically anachronistic...

Like I said, "if in doubt, do a paint test"...

Best of luck! OL JR :)
 
if its lacquer on top of lacquer then no scuffing is necessary because lacquer dissolves the coat below and blends in. But if the coat below is cured enamel, then the lacquer will not dissolve it but instead just sit over it, like epoxy over cured epoxy.

Not any enamel *I've* ever seen...

Shoot a good coat of lacquer over it and it'll dissolve into a wrinkled goo that looks like the skin on an alligator's back... then the whole mess can be wiped off (sometimes with the help of a little extra acetone or lacquer thinner) and you get to start over from scratch...

Now, there's some folks on here and over at the YORF forum who *can* and *do* apply lacquers successfully over an enamel undercoat, BUT-- the margins between success and failure are thinner than a razor blade! The trick is to put many, MANY super-light "dust" coats of lacquer over the enamel one by one, allowing them to "flash off" and "cure" before applying more "dust coats" until you build up enough lacquer to effectively "seal off" the underlying enamel with a solid coating of lacquer built up over time... THEN you can lay on a thicker, wetter coat of lacquer to "smooth out" the surface (dust coatings lead to dry spray and "orange peel" finishes, particularly with lacquers which dry quickly) by flowing out and covering all the "dry spray".

Only problem is, do it too soon (before the enamel coating is sufficiently 'sealed off' from the thicker layer of wet lacquer) and you'll ruin the entire paint job when the underlying enamel "melts" from the hot lacquer solvents attacking it! IOW, NOT a "beginner's technique"... so NO WAY I'd recommend it to anybody until they are experienced enough to know what they're doing and have maybe done some 'practice runs' with the technique...

later! OL JR :)
 
I'm thinking maybe I'll just leave well enough alone and not risk screwing up the pretty decent finish I've got already. The rocket has some dings and other flaws that aren't going to buff out, so maybe it's about as good as it can get anyway. I'll save messing with it until I can test sanding and polishing this paint on some other test object.

Here's what it looks like now.

MDRM-P-Finished6.jpg


There are more pics and more details in this thread: https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...Max-GOT-MY-LEVEL-1-CERT&p=1416217#post1416217
 
I know the camera hides a lot, but honestly that looks pretty darn good to me... :)

Unless you WANT to post close-ups of the flaws you see with the nekkid eye...

Later! OL JR :)
 
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