A positive thread on what people believe Estes should produce

evil ed said:

The B-14 is not going to happen (Do you want to hand-drill those BP grains?).

Click to expand...

I'd like some higher average thrust 29mm BP motors. The undesirable 0.5 second interval to max thrust (too much rod travel) might be less important if the max thrust reached in that interval was higher. Of course, they may have already tried this and had too many CATOs.

samb said:

I think your term for it was a bit harsh but I too read this as if he had his sarcasm filter on (which I don't have any problem with BTW; I believe that, at heart, John Boren is one of us). And I think you are right on about this thread. Keep on wishin' y'all !

Click to expand...

Perhaps an "eye roll" then...

mikemech said:

...If Semroc returns to their former glory, we won't need Estes parts.

Click to expand...

...Except for plastic nose cones!!

Sarcasm. It's a risky thing. It requires that the recipient have the ability to think in the abstract, especially when it appears in written form. As everyone here knows, I avoid sarcasm at all costs.

I think it would be worth remembering the intent of this thread, which is well worth preserving.

Positive suggestions about what Estes should consider producing with re-releases of old kits off the table for purposes of this discussion.

An in depth and less than polite analysis of John Boren's motivation behind his remark that lead to this thread is not needed.

Save that topic and the various requests about how Estes should change how they do their business for another thread.

There have been some interesting up scale requests, but not all that much in the way of new product ideas.

I would like to RockSims added to the online instructions for cloning and scaling purposes.
I'm sure Estes uses some kind of design software? Maybe John can post he uses.
Also, lengths for items not sold specifically by that part number. Like body tubes.
Thickness of balsa sheets used, or equivilent needed if it a plastic fin can being dupped or scaled.

samb said:

Quote Originally Posted by JumpJet View Post

Maybe someone can start a positive thread on what people believe Estes should produce, and no, the B14 motor isn't going to happen. Lets see if you can get 20 people to agree on the exact same thing, and I'm not talking about 20 people wanting the same discontinued kit being brought back. Think new and exciting stuff that more than .1 percent of the fliers out there might be interested in. I'll read the thread and maybe I'll "Learn Something" as stated on the NCIS New Orleans TV show.

Originally Posted by DizWolf ...
His point wasn't a request....it was a statement that no 20 people thrashing the catalog want the same thing and if you can't get 20 people here to want to buy something...there's not a market for it....

This thread is proof he was right.



I think your term for it was a bit harsh but I too read this as if he had his sarcasm filter on (which I don't have any problem with BTW; I believe that, at heart, John Boren is one of us). And I think you are right on about this thread. Keep on wishin' y'all !

Click to expand...

Frankly, if I were Mr. Boren, I would say screw off. After all, he is a builder like us and he works for a company that is in it for profit, catering to the masses who are not builders. Yet he keeps on pushing great builder's designs when he can, spending a large amount of time designing and convincing the boss. Yet, instead of gratitude and appreciation he hears griping because Estes won't rerelease the same 10 kits from 40 years ago. Personally I love what they are producing as far as builders kits go and I would love to see more of them. I also realize that the amount of them released will be limited as they are not what makes the company money, and if the company does not make money, there will be no company left.

For my 2 cents, I would ask that you continue to create great exotic kits and an occasional scale model, as often as you can. I will surely buy them.

Greater variety of nose cones available to buy separate from a kit. If I've got to buy them in a pack because it isn't practical to sell them piecemeal, fine, but maybe instead of shoving 4 of two types of cones in a bag, give us 2 of 4 types in the larger sizes (BT-60 and bigger).

More TTW fins...even on the smaller kits. Unless it is being designed as a lightweight or near minimum diameter kit, with laser cutting it can't add that much to the cost of a kit these days.

I have been keeping up with every post on this thread. As there is personalitys in this world, there is ideas.
I worked for a construction company in a perticulary area of huge commercial buildings.
It was not uncommon for me to be in charge of a million dollar project. That was just our part of it.
When my body started to fail, they moved me into the office where I had a completely different prospective on how things really were on a financial basis.
The bread and butter was not in the instalation of products using the main workforce, but in maintenance and repairs.
I get the idea that this is the same as Rockets. It's not so much income from kits, as they take a great deal man power and diversity, and expense to get on the market.
But in engines sales. A most stable market that doesn't require much engineering from year to year. Just get it out there and it sells. Difinitive cost and sales percentage.
To me, I think putting rockets out there, exotic & expensive, Retro's, scale ups of oldies is like under bidding to get the job. Knowing engine sales will make up for it in the end.
So that being said, what will the mass of Estes' people buy that will further support their bread & butter, engines?
Can Estes be competitive on Parts, which seams to be the #1 request? That to takes a great deal of man power and resources.
Estes provides a great deal of diversity as far as rockets are concerned. Yet at the end of the year they run sales to reduce inventory before Tax Time, Like we just experienced. Now, you take what was on sale, their projected sales must have been far below projections for such a sale. Does this mean those will no longer be available? Or do they need to make them more affordable to the masses if they can for more sales?
Take into concern that their main market is like hobby lobby. Does HL want to stock those engines for the big rockets? What does their insurance co. say to that?
I think on a devolopment view point from John, that with the great sale we saw, John was asked by the leaders of the Corperation where they need to go in 2016 to be more profitable with rocket sales.. And he's looking to us for the answers.
In reality, I think this is what he is seeking. But only John can answer those questions and clarify what he is truely looking for.
Rocketry is a very competitive market these days. Not like in the 60's & 70's, even the 80's. White and Blue collors are expensive. The income has to be there to support it and it can be very brutal to stay where your at without new ideas and show profit.
Thus, the reason my position was phased out on Dec. 15, 2008 when the construction phase around here dropped to just about nothing. And I still can't find work in my field.
Some just make rockets, no chutes, buy this that and the other as you like for their rockets, mostly mid and high power. And they servive.
Some just make engines, and they prosper. Estes have done both from the beginning. They are trying to keep up that tradition in trying times.
Just make engines? going larger and larger in that field?
Make rockets that will sell more engines in the long run?
How can we as low power rocketeers help them keep their tradition of making rockets and engines that keeps them alive and there for us?

I demand Goonies.

Speaking from my limited experience it is quite difficult to read the collective mind of the consumer. None of us makers of things for profit has a crystal ball, telling us what will sell and what will collect dust. Order too much wood and you might find yourself eating a lot of sawdust. Price things too low and there is no profit, too high and there are no sales. And if you toil for someone other than yourself, these decisions are most often not yours to make.

I think voicing wish lists of things you want to see in the marketplace is fine but such decisions are not the only criteria at work in the manufacturing process. Estes makes great products and is fortunate to have a man of John Boren's talent on their team. And if you don't see what you want from Estes then buy something else. Or, you can do what I do...create your own design, test it and build it yourself.

harsas said:

Frankly, if I were Mr. Boren, I would say screw off. After all, he is a builder like us and he works for a company that is in it for profit, catering to the masses who are not builders. Yet he keeps on pushing great builder's designs when he can, spending a large amount of time designing and convincing the boss. Yet, instead of gratitude and appreciation he hears griping because Estes won't rerelease the same 10 kits from 40 years ago. Personally I love what they are producing as far as builders kits go and I would love to see more of them. I also realize that the amount of them released will be limited as they are not what makes the company money, and if the company does not make money, there will be no company left.

Click to expand...

I'd have to agree with this post. People whine and complain about what Estes doesn't do. Yet, most of you guys aren't the ones trying to make the ends meet in the business of rocketry. What I would be curious about is other rocketry vendors...I'd like to know what THEY think Estes should do...knowing what they know about the business. Carl from Semroc pretty much admitted that he didn't expect to run Semroc at a significant (or even, any) profit. I believe Dr. Zooch said the same thing...they pretty much do it for the love of the hobby. Are there any other vendors that run rocketry as their SOLE source of income? I'd like to hear what they think.

FC

FastCargo said:

I'd have to agree with this post. People whine and complain about what Estes doesn't do. Yet, most of you guys aren't the ones trying to make the ends meet in the business of rocketry. What I would be curious about is other rocketry vendors...I'd like to know what THEY think Estes should do...knowing what they know about the business. Carl from Semroc pretty much admitted that he didn't expect to run Semroc at a significant (or even, any) profit. I believe Dr. Zooch said the same thing...they pretty much do it for the love of the hobby. Are there any other vendors that run rocketry as their SOLE source of income? I'd like to hear what they think.

FC

Click to expand...

Well.... Loki is a sole income.... He thinks "F black friday"
TVM is a sole income. he thinks we're "not his market"

thats irrelevant, but funny Here's the deal...estes knows what makes money. Pissing us off. They ask us what we want....do the exact opposite, and make HUGE profits.

If motors are the bread and butter... MOAR CLUSTERS

The ironic thing? Anything we're bitching for....we're capable of doing ourselves. and for all the calls to make cloning easier....seriously? Why the hell would they do that?

hcmbanjo said:

Both Great choices!

Click to expand...

John,

i'm going to agree with Chris and Coyote. Saturn 1B and the A3-6T.

I also think Estes would do well to re-release the Centuri Super Kits. Estes has really gotten away from using cardstock in kits but the Super Kits and Buck Rogers style kits with the cardstock added a whole different dimension to building.

Final thought is that an upscale Apollo Capsule and tower could yield a number of great kits. Same capsule and tower could produce a Saturn V and 1B for the F motors and (big) Little Joes for 18 or 24 mm motors.

I'd be keen to see Mr Boren's take on a classic design (possibly including some PSII tubes) - I nominate Mars Snooper III !!!

Gus said:

John,
i'm going to agree with Chris and Coyote. Saturn 1B and the A3-6T.
I also think Estes would do well to re-release the Centuri Super Kits. Estes has really gotten away from using cardstock in kits but the Super Kits and Buck Rogers style kits with the cardstock added a whole different dimension to building.
Final thought is that an upscale Apollo Capsule and tower could yield a number of great kits. Same capsule and tower could produce a Saturn V and 1B for the F motors and (big) Little Joes for 18 or 24 mm motors.

Click to expand...

Ditto Steve!
I didn't think of the Centuri Super Kits! With a 24mm engine mount, might be a great match for the Estes D12 and E12 engines.

tmacklin said:

Sarcasm. It's a risky thing. It requires that the recipient have the ability to think in the abstract, especially when it appears in written form. As everyone here knows, I avoid sarcasm at all costs.

Click to expand...

Sarcasm; because hitting people with a 2 x 4 is frowned upon.

I am proficient in three languages, English, sarcasm and profanity.

How about plans and decals for the classic kits. Anyone skilled enough to build an Astron Cobra from the old kit is certainly skilled enough to make one from scratch.

What would I like to see from Estes? Continue introducing kits like the BSV, QCC Explorer and Conquest. They are fun to build and are a departure from the 3FNC kits. Maybe a similar concept scaled down for smaller motors. BT-50 and smaller rockets that are easy to build and can be a park flier or a hot rod depending on motor choice.

I like the Tandem-X Launch set that comes with a pad, an E2X Amazon and a level 1 Crossfire ISX. More offerings like this would help newcomers to the hobby take the step to a builder's kit.

Rob Campbell said:

How about plans and decals for the classic kits. Anyone skilled enough to build an Astron Cobra from the old kit is certainly skilled enough to make one from scratch.

Click to expand...

I second that. Estes already has the plans, and probably has the artwork for the decals, in the files somewhere. No development costs, just printing, and you wouldn't need to sell too many before the project starts making money. (It might also encourage further sales of tubes and nose cones.)

Rob Campbell said:

How about plans and decals for the classic kits. Anyone skilled enough to build an Astron Cobra from the old kit is certainly skilled enough to make one from scratch.

Click to expand...

The plans and decal scans are available at JimZ and YORP. Excelsior can print most decals for any old Estes kit, or you could buy some inkjet paper and do it yourself. If I can figure it out, anyone can. I doubt that Estes stands to make anything resembling a profit in such a market.

Honestly, I would like Estes, NAR, Apogee, etc, to pool their resources and put together a 'Why Model Rocketry Matters' video presentation.

Get folks like Neil Degrasse Tyson, Bill Nye, Chris Hadfield, Elon Musk, Elise Andrew, Eileen Collins, Tim Cook, others to speak in it. The names NEED to be well known in science, technology, the future and in popular culture. If any of those people I've listed have personal experience with model rocketry, so much the better if they can speak directly to it. Actors, and people only known within the hobby are not enough.

Videos and pictures showing successful launches, groups, events.

That we emphasize safety, fun, and education.

That we are inclusive...one only has to look at the makeup of TARC teams to see that.

To have the video done by a professional marketing organization with a good track record...yes, folks, there is a difference.

To have it be of such quality that when a teacher is looking for funding for a rocketry program they can point to this video.

That when a club is looking for permission to launch from a land owner or parks administration board, they can point to this video.

That for any other reason you are looking to recruit the next generation...you can point to this video.

That is what I want. Product only takes you so far...you need the interest and environment to be able to cultivate that interest. Or it won't matter.

FC

Sorry I haven't posted in this thread yet but I couldn't find it and since I seldom go to the Watering Hole section it was by chance I found this thread since it was linked in another thread.

As you can see my original question or statement if you wish to call it that instead, isn't an easy one to answer or for a company to act on. There are some common wants but for the most part everyone wants something different as their number one thing, which is common no matter what the topic is. I see more engines and parts are pretty much at the top of the list. I've flown engines here that I WISH would have made it to market, but for one reason or another they didn't. Estes isn't in the parts business so you won't see everything we use in our products sold separately. Places like BMS and Semroc supply most of this kind of stuff anyway.

By the way this is me asking the question not Estes asking me to ask the question. I am a modeler first of foremost so I pretty much would like to see just about everything everyone has mentioned but I'm also the one and only R&D guy here and what I design has to first and for most be in the best business practice for Estes and not my personal want. :wink:

Here are a few items I can comment on.

Centuri Super Kits: I knew Carl was doing them so I stayed away from them, since there's plenty of other stuff to do.

More Card Stock: I use card stock in many of my designs and there's more of it to come.

More Scale: There's more to come

Limited production runs: This is what most of the other rocket companies do. A hundred or two hundred kits is fine for them but we have to do several thousand at a time.

More Bring Backs: I'd love too, but they really don't sale any better then new stuff, so why do them. But I', sure more are to come. I've got one new one my desk right now.

Upscale old kits: YES. in most cases this might be better then a simple bring back.

Higher Skill Level kits: For many years Estes didn't have any skill level 4 and skill level 5 kits, now we do and there are more to come.

38mm retainer: A fellow club member tested a rapid prototype one I designed, it worked great. This won't be coming to market.

RC Gliders: I wish, and I've created a few that I've posted here in the past for my personally use but were also used for testing of radio gear that could be used by Estes.

Gooney Birds: I created a whole new series of these but we instead made other short BT60 models like the Estes Jet Liner

Smaller kits for 29mm: It's on my personal to do list.

Orbital Transport type model: I've got two in testing.

Cluster Model kit: I would like to do at least one kit since we now have the Pro Series Launch Controller.

More Electronic Stuff: Yes

A3-6T : We tried, can no longer get 6 seconds of delay in the case with the black powder available

Rock Sim I don't use any type of stability software to design my models with. After the fact I do use Rock Sim to prove the margin of stability of the design for Corporate.

Rubber Shock Cords: LONG LIVE RUBBER SHOCK CORDS, Down with Kevlar. Places like Apogee welcome your purchase of their Kevlar. Kevlar burns and breaks just like rubber, plus it zippers.


By the way posting positive stuff on the Estes Face Book page is the best way to maybe get more of what your looking for since more Corporate people will see these posts then just I who visit the forums.

I would also ask that you leave reviews on the Estes web site on the products we sale. The New Conquest I designed has yet to have a single comment posted and it.


John Boren

Thanks for the Info John. A few more places to make comments in a positive way is nice to know.
As for the Conquest, I now have 2 in my build pile that I received over this season.
I will move it up to the next one I start and try and do a build thread.
Won't be able to fly though until late March to Mid April. Or I can get down the lain intersections at the farm I use to launch.
Sorry to hear no parts, but that's the way it goes I guess.
I like the upscale of the oldies, I am very interested in those. Save the upscaling and only have to scratch the originals.
Good Times to you.

JumpJet said:

Sorry I haven't posted in this thread yet...

(Quotes snipped for brevity)

John Boren

Click to expand...

John,

Thanks for posting. Also, good to know where some of our comments and questions can be seen besides here. And thanks for the straight scoop on the business side...not many here choose to remember what's good for them isn't necessarily good for long term business in this industry.

FC

JumpJet said:

...

Rock Sim I don't use any type of stability software to design my models with. After the fact I do use Rock Sim to prove the margin of stability of the design for Corporate.

Rubber Shock Cords: LONG LIVE RUBBER SHOCK CORDS, Down with Kevlar. Places like Apogee welcome your purchase of their Kevlar. Kevlar burns and breaks just like rubber, plus it zippers.

...

Click to expand...

Aw ya lost the crowd right there. (Ok a little sarcastic ) Thanks for the replies.

John
Thanks for the feedback
While there are always things we all will want, whether they would make financial sense to a company like Estes or not, Estes has done a great job and please keep up the good work

Thanks
Les

Thank you John for your candor. It's helpful to get a some perspective from a builder who's on the "inside".
"I would also ask that you leave reviews on the Estes web site on the products we sale." <--- noted. Will do.

Add me to the "thanks for your candor and for giving feedback" list!

I will be sure to add some reviews on the web site. Sadly I don't do facebook otherwise I'd leave good positive stuff there...

As to the "parts" thing: I agree and understand doing a lot of parts sales isn't your business model. However, expanding your offering of bags of nose plastic cones, particularly for larger birds, would definitely score in our top 3... any chance of just considering that from the parts end? PRetty much everything else parts wise we can get elsewhere.

I think you are on track with the "upscale old kits" thing. And glad to see the interest in electronics. A video camera model, probably in a nose cone, would be awesome. I'm happy to strap on an 808 camera but I bet you would have a great market for a camera nose cone sold separately that could go onto lots of your various kits. In other words, it could be marketed as being a compatible upgrade for lots of your RTF/ARF (and of course builder kit) models, as well as included in some purpose-designed rockets.

Thanks again for checking in!

Marc

Woody pretty much summed it up.... engine sales are what drives the company. But alas, engines are getting harder and harder to get. I used to regularly get D12-5's from Michaels with 40% coupons, but they don't carry them anymore. The economy has made what was once easy to build up a cache of motors difficult to get but a few. If there was a way that motors could be more affordable......

And I don't care what anybody says, I love the old Sci-Fi designs: Andromeda, Alien Explorer, Rigel 3, Solar Sailer , etc. The new kits are a fantastic step in the right direction. Look at my avatar, I love my BSV. I'm not much of a scale guy, but I am looking forward to the Mercury Redstone.

Thank you John for even replying and inquiring. I, for one, look with anticipation to what you can help Estes provide in the future, I just hope I can afford it.