The cost of rocketry and level 1

I mentioned in an earlier thread that the cost of a Level 1 certificate for my grandson and I would be in excess of ££250. Simon mentioned that it would cost nowhere near this so I did my sums again and came up with the figures below.

By way of explanation I would say the following.

1. My sums are covering two entries. One for my grandson as a junior and one for me as an adult. I had hoped that we might try for level 1 jointly but according to the clubs and UKRA, this is not permissible. By the way, my grandson has just turned eleven years old.

2. I haven't included UKRA annual fees. I don't yet know what they will be. I seem to remember a figure of £10 plus a fee for taking level 1. As I'm not sure on either I've excluded them from my costs.

3. Our rocket design is quite basic. All parts have been sourced and bought in the UK. We will use the same design for both rockets. I will compile two kits worth of parts.

4. BMFA costs are at 2015 rates. Club costs are at 2014 rates as like UKRA they haven't yet published their 2015 rates.

5. I am assuming that my interpretation of costs is correct. If not and if there is a more cost effective approach I would appreciate any advice.

6. I think that the cost of our kits is cheaper than an equivalent pre-prepared kit from Loc or PM. I can probably find a cheaper L1 kit from say Estes but we really want to qualify using our design. While I appreciate we may be paying a premium of £20 per rocket for doing so, the challenge and the satisfaction of doing it from scratch is worth it. It's much more fun seeing our one qualify (if it does) than it is knowing that it will fly if assembled reasonably correctly

So here's the cost:

BMFA membership adult. £32
BMFA membership junior. £17
Club membership adult. £30
Club membership junior. £20
Rocket cost (inc. motors) £158
Test cost (optional). £22
Paint cost. £15
Travel cost (2 journeys) £45
Extras (unknown) £0
UKRA (unknown) £0
Labour & time £0

I make that a total of £338 (more than my initial estimate of £250).

If we were able to qualify jointly then the cost would reduce £116 to £222.

I think the message here is that it's expensive, at least in my terms and that the clubs and authorities should continue to address the costs of the junior membership in order to encourage the young to pursue the hobby.

SO.

PS. The good news is that I received the last parts of the rocket kits today. That means we can now start to build them.

Including the membership fees in the certification cost doesn't seem fair to me, unless you're going to fly this one rocket then call it quits.

Good point but bear in mind we won't be able to fly till March earliest, realistically April or May. They will probably be the main flights in 2015. So the bulk of the cost (if not all) will be set against our L1 attempt. The aim for 2015 is L1, nothing else. The costs I have included cover three flights not just one - two L1 attempts and one test flight.
Following your point the one cost I haven't accounted for is all the advice and help we're going to need from the club.

SO

One question. Is your grandson old enough? I know that for a JR L1 here in the states you need to be at least 14 years old. Same with tripolis TMP program.

Another good point. In general I don't think so but have been advised he must qualify on his own. This means he must build his own rocket.
As far as I am concerned I have no issues where safety is concerned. He is extremely responsible in that area and clearly understands the principles and dangers of model rocketry.
Providing he can build the kit (with my supervision) then I have no issues with his understanding of safety. Also as long as it is applied with supervision.
As I said, I've asked the question regarding age a number of times but never been advised otherwise. If anyone can offer contrary advise applicable to the UK, I'd be pleased to know.

The subjective part of all of this is how to grow the enthusiasm of an eleven year old. A joint attempt is my preference so that there are two names on the certificate. This is not possible so individual rockets apply.

SO.

It seems like you are including costs that are not necessarily strictly due to the cert attempt. Presumably, the point of having the cert is to fly rockets. So saying the cost of the rockets, motors, paint and travel to rocketry events is attributable only to certification is misleading --- that's the cost of being a rocketeer. Hopefully, you'll get the rockets back and get to keep and use them for years to come, so it's not a one-time cost. Even the club memberships come with benefits beyond the one-time cert attempt.

If you are interested in rocketry and want to build rockets, paint them, travel to club launches, and buy motors to fly rockets, it is going to cost money, regardless of whether you certify or not. So what in your list is really the cost of certifying, and what is the cost of being an active rocketeer?

SO as and when let me know what motor you want for the flight I'll give you one 29, 38 mm

ThirstyBarbarian said:

It seems like you are including costs that are not necessarily strictly due to the cert attempt. Presumably, the point of having the cert is to fly rockets. So saying the cost of the rockets, motors, paint and travel to rocketry events is attributable only to certification is misleading --- that's the cost of being a rocketeer. Hopefully, you'll get the rockets back and get to keep and use them for years to come, so it's not a one-time cost. Even the club memberships come with benefits beyond the one-time cert attempt.

If you are interested in rocketry and want to build rockets, paint them, travel to club launches, and buy motors to fly rockets, it is going to cost money, regardless of whether you certify or not. So what in your list is really the cost of certifying, and what is the cost of being an active rocketeer?

Click to expand...

What is the text equivalent of "read my lips"?

To repeat, the costs apply to L1 certification only. There is no other spin off, advantage, or benefit we plan to enjoy from the cost.
The costs I have described of motors, parts, paint, and travel, are attributable to one thing and one thing only, level 1!
The next project (assuming this one passes, which is a big assumption) will be the next project. One that will carry a completely new and distinct set of costs. We will not be distracted by any other expense aside from that which is focused on level 1. So the expense I have listed is for level 1 and level 1 only.

I apologise for being blunt and slightly obtuse. I think however you are missing my point regarding the wider affordability of model rocketry. Also the encouragement of younger and new minds into the hobby. Maybe I wasn't too clear on those points. Hopefully I am now?

Given my cost for a rocket at around £75. That is £22 for the motor, the rest for a heap of cardboard, cotton and plastic.
The belief in supply and demand leads me to believe ther is something rotten in the state of rocketry. Something in decline within the US as well as in the UK.

SO.

PS. Further to my earlier PS, my parts didn't arrive today. they have been despatched but currently resting somewhere in the UK awaiting a signature - for a few centering rings?

Dear Space Oddity,

It is excellent that you and your grandson are interested in pursuing UKRA HPR certification, it is always exciting to hear about new endeavours into the world of HPR and I wish you the best of luck in the forthcoming launches.

There have been a number of points raised on this thread that I would I’d like to address, but first please allow me to answer your direct question regarding certification for your 11 year old grandson. The is no hard-fast rule on the age limit for HPR certification under UKRA since the certification is a statement of competency, i.e. if your grandson can demonstrate the required level, there is no reason to withhold application. However the Certifying Range Safety Officer (RSO) will carefully assess the maturity of any candidate before allowing a certification attempt. It is a requirement of certification that the flier has built the rocket themselves with minimal supervision. Since your grandson is quite young, I recommend photographing him and rocket during the build thoroughly so that this can be verified when he comes to do his certification (and dispel any concerns that you have built the rocket on his behalf) – of course providing help is fine, but the majority of the work must be carried out by the flier. During the certification the RSO will oversee the preparation of the rocket, from the assembly of the rocket motor (and delay setting if applicable) to the packing of the recovery system. This will also need to be achieved without supervision. Finally the RSO will ask questions regarding the particulars of the flight/rocket, e.g. Where is the Rocket CG and CP located? How many seconds delay are required (if applicable)? What is the predicted altitude of the rocket? How are the fins attached? Etc. etc. The specific questions and the detail required is really down to the specific RSO (and the rocket) such that he/she is satisfied with the flier’s understanding of the rocket and its performance. For Level 1, the flier should, at least, understand the various phases of the flight and have an appreciation of how the rocket will behave with the chosen motor. If your grandson can demonstrate this level of understanding then he will be fine to make a Level 1 attempt.

In regard to the cost of rocketry and certification. It has already been noted earlier that you are somewhat confusing the cost associated with the every-day involvement in the hobby with the specific cost of a certification attempt. I take your point that the only flights you will make this year will be with your Level 1 rockets, but assuming the rockets survive the flights, they will be reusable and can be flown many times over many years. I for one still have many of my early HPR rockets and often blow the dust off for a new launch. If you really are only expecting to fly once or twice with your L1 rockets and move straight on next year with new ones, then unfortunately you are going to run up high costs. This hobby is not cheap. Many fliers build rockets that are capable of being expanded or developed to allow for both Level 1 at first and Level 2 later on. Perhaps that is a consideration that you might want to make to help to lower overall cost and prevent the need to build multiple rockets. Let me be clear, UKRA HPR Certification is a UKRA requirement for flying HPR rockets at UKRA affiliated events (i.e. mainly at UKRA affiliated clubs). It is not a legal requirement to hold UKRA Certification to fly rockets above G-Class in the UK. The UKRA Safety Code and Certification Scheme are designed to provide a competency indicator to clubs and RSOs so that fliers do not have to be rigorously interrogated every time someone wishes to make a launch. This way the safety of events can be controlled and the risk of dangerous launches can be minimised. For individuals, many rocketeers revere their certification as it indicates a level of skill and attainment in their hobby, others see it as simply a means to fly a rocket of a certain impulse at their club. It is also worth noting the Certification Scheme has been closely mapped to other rocketry international organisations (including Tripoli and NAR in the USA), which means that UKRA Certified individuals are recognised for their HPR level around the world. In the case of a group or team rocketry project it is very difficult to attribute where the individual competency lies and as such it is inappropriate to allow group certifications.

UKRA is yet to release information regarding its membership structure yet (see here: www.ukra.org.uk/join for more info – please bear with us), however in the past UKRA membership has been £10 per year (less than £1 per month – only £5 for under 18’s) and Certifications cost £5 (to cover administration, card printing and postage) and an additional optional fee of £2.50 is charged for those requiring a hard copy of their Certification Certificate which is provided electronically as a PDF as standard). UKRA believes these fees to be entirely reasonable. Insurance is a UKRA requirement for flying at a UKRA affiliated event and therefore BMFA Membership (which includes insurance) at £37 per year is required (cheaper for Juniors). Club fees are set by the clubs and are outside the control of UKRA. These fees are to cover maintenance of launch controllers and pads, ground fees, event organisation and facilities such as toilets, etc. Finally the cost of parts and motors in the UK is significantly higher than available to our US friends because almost all the kits, parts and motors have to be imported. There is very little that can be done to combat these costs and thus any serious rocket flier knows that HPR is an expensive hobby to maintain.

I hope this post has been useful to you, however if you have any further questions please don’t hesitate to ask. On behalf of UKRA I wish you all the best of luck with you and your grandson’s L1 endeavours and look forward to meeting you at one of the numerous rocketry events of the 2015 calendar.

Kind regards,

Russ Strand UKRA #1441 L3 RSO
UKRA Chair

Space Oddity said:

What is the text equivalent of "read my lips"?

To repeat, the costs apply to L1 certification only. There is no other spin off, advantage, or benefit we plan to enjoy from the cost.
The costs I have described of motors, parts, paint, and travel, are attributable to one thing and one thing only, level 1!
The next project (assuming this one passes, which is a big assumption) will be the next project. One that will carry a completely new and distinct set of costs. We will not be distracted by any other expense aside from that which is focused on level 1. So the expense I have listed is for level 1 and level 1 only.

I apologise for being blunt and slightly obtuse. I think however you are missing my point regarding the wider affordability of model rocketry. Also the encouragement of younger and new minds into the hobby. Maybe I wasn't too clear on those points. Hopefully I am now?

Given my cost for a rocket at around £75. That is £22 for the motor, the rest for a heap of cardboard, cotton and plastic.
The belief in supply and demand leads me to believe ther is something rotten in the state of rocketry. Something in decline within the US as well as in the UK.

SO.

PS. Further to my earlier PS, my parts didn't arrive today. they have been despatched but currently resting somewhere in the UK awaiting a signature - for a few centering rings?

Click to expand...

Your tone seems a bit rude, but I'm going to set that aside and answer your questions and let you know my point of view on the matter.

I guess if you considered this a "project" and never planned to fly your L1 rocket again, then the cost of the rocket could be considered a cost for L1 only, with no other spin off, advantage, or benefit. But if you do plan to fly it again, then I don't see it from your point of view. I see the cost of the rocket as an investment in a hobby I enjoy with benefits to come for what I hope to be many years of enjoyment. Likewise, if you don't really enjoy going to a launch, then paying to travel there could be considered a cost of L1, but I would tend to consider it money spent on having a good time doing something I enjoy.

Here's what it cost me to get L1 --- zero.

I paid $30 for a rocket I never intended to use for L1. I bought it because it was a great deal on a rocket I wanted to fly. I ended up spending quite a bit more than that on items to modify the rocket into something I thought would be a lot of fun to have and fly, and by the end I probably spent about $100 on completely optional upgrades, simply because I liked them. By the time I was finished building and modifying the rocket, it was over the legal weight limit for model rocketry, and I was required to get my L1 in order to fly it legally --- and L1 was something I had not intended to do for several years, if ever. So I took that rocket I built solely for pleasure, and I purchased an L1 motor for $30, a motor I was super excited to be able to try out! And I drove about 100 miles to attend a club launch, spending maybe $50 or more on gas to get there and back. I camped at the launch for 2 nights and bought all my meals from the club food vendors for another $50 or so. I paid $20 for the club launch to attend as a guest for all 3 days. I also bought another $80 in motors for the rest of the weekend's flying. I flew the L1 flight as soon as I arrived and passed just fine --- it was a great flight and a lot of fun! Then I spent the rest of the weekend having fun at the launch, flying rockets, eating food, talking to fellow rocketeers, watching other rockets fly --- basically having a blast.

So I guess from your point of view, that would be considered a "project" costing over $350 to achieve L1. I can't consider it a project, because L1 was never an intended "goal." It was something that happened inadvertently along the way as I was having fun doing something I would have done anyway. I consider it $130 spent on a really cool rocket that I like a lot and intend to keep flying as long as I can. Plus a couple hundred bucks having a great weekend. So my L1 cost me nothing --- you should try doing it my way and save yourself some money!

To your point that rocketry is expensive, that can be true for high power. But low power rocketry is not an expensive hobby. Why do you feel you have to get an L1? Why get into high power? Why not just fly some LPR rockets that don't require expensive materials, expensive motors, and club memberships to fly? Your grandson certainly does not need to have an L1 cert at age 11. If it costs too much to get him an L1 certification, don't do it! Let him fly LPR rockets for a few years. Or if you really are stuck on HPR, let him help you fly your HPR if you want. He doesn't need a cert to simply attend an HPR launch. After your L1 is complete, he can help you prep your rocket for subsequent launches, help you push the button if he wants to do that, help you recover the rocket. Getting him an L1 cert at age 11 is a waste in my opinion.

Children do not need to get into expensive high-power rocketry to be introduced to a world of rocketry that can capture their imagination and become a life-long source of enjoyment. I don't think there is anything nefarious going on to keep the hobby expensive or out of the reach of young people. Let them enjoy flying affordable LPR until they are of the age that they can absorb the cost of Big Boy Toy HPR on their own.

Rocketry is expensive.

Cost to L1 with Grandson in the UK = about £338

The thrill of a spectacular rocket launch,
-meeting new friends,
-satisfaction of accomplishing L1,
-sharing a wonderful day with your Grandson,
-memories that will outlast your lifetime,

... Priceless!

also you don't need a 100$ rocket. People have Certed L1 on the Estes pro series 2 kits which can be gotten for 25$ when they are on sale (which is basically all the time). I don't know if you can get them in the UK but the point i guess I'm trying to get across is that you don't have to buy the super duper L1 advertised rocket for your cert attempt. Also think about size. If you go smaller then you can use 29mm HPR motors which are cheaper and still are a lot of fun. I'm 16 and JR L1 certified and fly 38mm HPR rockets all the time. I look for the bargains and then see what i can do to modify the rocket to my liking. I would also highly recommend scratch building as that can provide even more fun and satisfaction when you know that you flew a rocket designed completely by you

Space Oddity said:

I mentioned in an earlier thread that the cost of a Level 1 certificate for my grandson and I would be in excess of ££250. Simon mentioned that it would cost nowhere near this so I did my sums again and came up with the figures below.

< snip >

I think the message here is that it's expensive, at least in my terms and that the clubs and authorities should continue to address the costs of the junior membership in order to encourage the young to pursue the hobby.

SO.

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I believe that your original intent may have been the last part, where you stated "the clubs and authorities should continue to address the costs of the junior membership in order to encourage the young to pursue the hobby"

I think that is always a concern, and I don't think anybody would want the fees & costs to deter interested youngsters from starting or participating in model rocketry activities. Having said that, the fees (in the US at least) are lower for those under 21, and are reasonable (the web page says $25 a year). Getting a Level 1 is optional, but hey, once somebody sets off a couple of A motors, they are then going to want to set off some B's, then of course some C's, and there they are sliding down the slippery slope...

The real issue is that while the cost of memberships for rocketry organizations are pretty low* (see below) and you can economize on kits & parts, travel, etc., and there is plenty of information available for free on the internet (hey, when I was a kid, if you wanted to figure out how high your rocket might go, you had to buy "Topics in Advanced Model Rocketry" and do the math yourself!) the real costs that cannot seem to be avoided are the costs of the motors...and there aren't any reduced fees for youngsters for that.

What's more, the motor manufacturers have to make some sort of profit, or else they wouldn't be in the business...they have costs, such as employee wages, benefits, taxes, etc., and I don't think much can be done about that. I don't think anybody started a model rocket company with the idea that they would get filthy stinkin' rich.

So...not much more I can say, other than, compared to other hobbies, it seems reasonable to me (you can disagree with me, if you wish).

Pyropetepete said:

SO as and when let me know what motor you want for the flight I'll give you one 29, 38 mm

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If the AeroTech line at the time is not here yet you can borrow a Pro 29/38mm case as well.

This will save you a fair bit and is how the club rocketry scene I've know works.

SO, You can certainly save some costs as you don't need to be a member of a club to fly HPR in the UK and get certified. I wasn't a member of a club when I did my certification, I just turned up and paid £5 on the day for temporary membership and did my L1 there and then.
You can also hire motor cases from vendors at events rather than buy them, or even borrow one from a fellow rocketeer. There have been many times that I have borrowed parts and lent parts at rocketry meetings, including rapid expoy on many occasions it's all part of the camaraderie of rocketry. I guess it all depends on what your intentions are as to how much you ultimately spend. But if you really want to save money on these things, then it's probably worth phoning the club that you are thinking of going to for your Level 1 attempt, and find out if they'll lend you the motor cases, or if Malcolm from Rockets and Things is going, as he'll definitely hire them out for a very small fee.
Just trying to help out with a few cost saving ideas.

SO, I used an almost identical approach to figuring the cost of an NAR L1-jr cert for my son.

My reasoning was that it was his goal, not mine, so he should be aware of (and shoulder much of) the expense - so he could compare it to other things he wants to do. Spend the money for a nice Wildman Sport, motor and case, and cert - or a new RC plane/car?

Either way, we'd be out there flying. I'll pop for scratch builds and black powder. As much as his Mum will allow But taking that extra step was his effort, money - and accomplishment. With plenty of help and advice - club flying is fun.

Thanks to all for your interesting and informative comments.
Interesting in the different approaches and thoughts we have about the hobby.

Thanks in particular to:

Simon and Pete: Your offers are appreciated. I've actually bought all the bits I need to build two level 1 rockets, except the H motors of course. As a newcomer, it's good to know that there is a good sense of enthusiasm and generosity in UK clubs. I'm sure the same goes for the U.S. as well.

Russ (UKRA): For taking the time and effort in providing such a clear and informative reply.

ThirstyBarbarian: My apologies if my comment appeared "rude". Certainly not my intent. Maybe more out of my frustration in being unable to communicate a point.
I'm not sure which generation of Barbarian you originate from but hopefully I've allayed the onset of Barbarian hordes as they pillage and devastate all in their path on a wild rampage toward Norfolk (that's Norfolk UK - Damn, now you know where I am). Seriously though, your comments were very helpful.

The immediate conclusions I have drawn from your replies are:

1. Enthusiasm drives all.
2. There probably isn't a solution to the cost of the hobby. It just costs in line with your aims. Given the comment that all hobbies cost what they do, I would say that photography is a good example of how to reduce cost. These days the initial outlay is high but the long term costs have fallen tremendously over the past twenty years. I'm a digital convert, pay very little these days for fantastic photos and video. Also we don't have to deplete the silver reserves or stand around in the dark for hours waiting for an image to appear. Maybe a lesson there?
3. Some do it to achieve and compete, some do it just for fun and enjoyment. There's room for all.
4. Maybe the process and frustration with the authorities is real, but maybe it is necessary for safety and control of what is potentially a dangerous hobby with irresponsible participants. Maybe also, it is more difficult than actually building and flying the rockets? Having said that I think I might defer that that thought until such time we both have a level 1 certificate in our hands!

Thanks again.

All the best,

SO.

PS. I'll let you know when we've achieved level 1 (or otherwise). You'd better hope we don't because the next set of posts will be about level 2!