What are some of the options for model rocket tracking using electronics

Hi

What are some of the options for model rocket tracking using electronics ? 13 mm to 29 mm tubes.

I like the chalenge of minimum diameter rockets but wow are they hard to find after the fact.

Thanks
Paul

I don't know about the GPS type trackers, but the Walston transmitter should fit in a 13mm tube. It has a long antenna so that would be an issue in a small rocket.

Handeman said:

I don't know about the GPS type trackers, but the Walston transmitter should fit in a 13mm tube. It has a long antenna so that would be an issue in a small rocket.

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I have a Walston, and while I like it the 18-19" antenna is a real issue for model sized rockets. Granted it is some what flexible.

I am contemplating one of the eggtimer gps units, but I do not think it fits your bill.

Have you considered a sonic beacon of some sort?

Hi

Thanks guys for thr comments . I have also been advised to look into the following
falcons tacker but it does not state the size but it's range is 35 miles . https://www.radiotracking.com/other.html but it looks like it cost 600 dollars.

Walston looks like 290 .00 with Yagi and the range is 3 miles .

I guess I will look at the size of both models .

Thanks
Paul

I will probably order a LL system, the receiver is very similar to the spec com I use too. The receivers are very small.

https://www.radiotracking.com/other.html

How much you willing to spend? https://www.jbgizmo.com/page30.htm How far do you expect it to fly? If you get a good bearing on descent you may pickup the receiver again as you get closer to it. Crashing a $150.00 receiver in a modroc can be hard to swallow.

Am getting ready to test this thing out in an OOP Estes type rocket with an E30-7SU motor. Only problem is the dipole antenna is long and one needs a 2m receiver. If I lose it, I'm out $15.00. Not too bad a deal. Kurt

Not sure if this is small enough for you.

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...Track-Open-Source-GPS-Tracker-for-Smartphones

Communication Specialist makes some pretty small radio transmitters. You can attach them right to shock cord with electrical tape. Need the receiver to locate but I find that many clubs own a receiver.

This is the smallest transmitter for the price I know of. Antenna is only 6in long,range 40 miles, battery 40 days.Uses the cheap 2032 button battery....size of a nickel. 50cents @ if you buy 12 packs from Comm-Spec;

https://www.marshallradio.com/north...conry-transmitters/item/122-scout-transmitter

This is the most economical receiver I have found,you can use in conduction with the Marshall.

Model 100 under products 250.00

https://com-spec.com/rocket/index.html

Marshal Transmitter will fit 24mm tube and up, I know of nothing that will fit 13 or 18 unless the airframe is long enough for a 17in. antenna, then the LLC and walston fit.....but their batteries cost much, much more and use 4 .

ksaves2 said:

How much you willing to spend? https://www.jbgizmo.com/page30.htm How far do you expect it to fly? If you get a good bearing on descent you may pickup the receiver again as you get closer to it. Crashing a $150.00 receiver in a modroc can be hard to swallow.

Am getting ready to test this thing out in an OOP Estes type rocket with an E30-7SU motor. Only problem is the dipole antenna is long and one needs a 2m receiver. If I lose it, I'm out $15.00. Not too bad a deal. Kurt

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I am willing to spend what ever the best product is for the money & the purpose .Please tell me what you find but is the product out of the box ready to use?

Thanks
Paul

dingle said:

Not sure if this is small enough for you.

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...Track-Open-Source-GPS-Tracker-for-Smartphones

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Hi , Pretty cool stuff but I am electronically ignorant. I need to take some lessons before I attempt modifing and soldering .

Thanks Paul

I like the looks of that one!

BigRedBee 70cm Tx will fit a 29mm tube. Only $60.00. You need to supply Rx solution.

Paul Whalen said:

I am willing to spend what ever the best product is for the money & the purpose .Please tell me what you find but is the product out of the box ready to use?

Thanks
Paul

Click to expand...

https://www.jbgizmo.com/page30.htm

It's low power, on the 2m ham band and is a very simple kit. One would have to get their own receiver. Like Jim says, finding something really small is tough. Power wise, the more power the device has the bigger and heavier the batteries and the size of the device. M0XER-4 went around the world like 5 times on a balloon and tracked with 10Mw output: https://www.leobodnar.com/balloons/B-64/. Yeah, when it's up 40,000' in the air, doesn't take much power to get out a usable signal.

I believe this unit Jim points out: https://www.marshallradio.com/north...conry-transmitters/item/122-scout-transmitter will likely not give one a 40 mile range with the rocket lying on the ground.

If you intend to stay in HPR the other devices folks have recommended can serve one well if the price isn't an impediment. Some clubs have receivers so if you can find yourself in that situation, you might be able to get away with just buying a transmitter and using a club receiver/antenna arrangement.
Kurt

BrAdam said:

BigRedBee 70cm Tx will fit a 29mm tube. Only $60.00. You need to supply Rx solution.

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But "technically" one has to have a Ham Technician license before Greg will ship a 70cm device. On the other hand, studying for the Ham ticket is pretty easy and the materials do touch upon radio tracking. One can learn about RDF while studying that will apply directly to tracking rockets.

The one thing a person has to remember is occasionally they can lose a tracker. It may get too far out for a good bearing. That is generally unlikely unless someone is using a ridiculously stupid powerful motor on a dry lakebed launch that gets cocked sideways. Or there is a technical problem like the power supply cuts out and the transmitter goes dead. Or recovery system failure of some kind ie. no apogee deployment, shockcord shears and rocket core samples.
I heard of a person that felt they were receiving a signal from "underground" but couldn't find the rocket as the signal was so weak. Swallowing the destruction of a $250.00 tracker (not to mention the associated rocket hardware) can be tough.

One little RDF trick applicable to rockets if a user has a Garmin (or any) GPS that has a Sight 'N Go feature (https://support.garmin.com/support/...caseId={bc1354d0-f83a-11e0-73d0-000000000000}), is to point the GPS along the receive antenna to "lock" a bearing to follow on the handheld GPS. Of course if one can "see" the descending rocket, they can sight and lock a bearing directly to the rocket as it gets close to touchdown "way out there". If the rocket completely "disappears" and a bearing acquired on the presumed descent based upon the direction of the receiving antenna, locking the bearing into a handheld GPS might make it easier to "walk the line" to the likely recovery area. True, one won't know the distance but hopefully will eventually get within range to pickup a new signal. Kurt

Beeline will fit in a 24mm tube. The difficulty of 2m radios is that the reciever antenna is usually a Yagi (simple directional) but in the 2m band the yagi is pretty large. A 70cm yagi is much easier to manuver around a corn field. Range claims should be viewed with suspicion because the earth attenuates the signal. Line of sight range is MUCH further than when the transmitter is laying on the ground.

Reciever sensitivity is important. Comspec and walston have very sensitive receivers-- they cost a lot, too. A good ham band rx is better than a cheap Chinese one and both are better than a "scanner". Yagi's can be hand made. You'll need an attenuator (walston and comspec have this built in) and the arrow antennas attenuator is EXCELLENT for 70cm. Like, get within 20 feet excellent.

Whatever system you select will probably be great. IF you fly it every time, IF you practice tracking the thing in similar to recovery conditions, IF you fly it every time, IF you practice..... get it? I regularly help people recover their rockets with Beeline gear on board because it's excellent practice with a little bit of pressure.

N

ksaves2 said:

But "technically" one has to have a Ham Technician license before Greg will ship a 70cm device. On the other hand, studying for the Ham ticket is pretty easy and the materials do touch upon radio tracking. One can learn about RDF while studying that will apply directly to tracking rockets.

The one thing a person has to remember is occasionally they can lose a tracker. It may get too far out for a good bearing. That is generally unlikely unless someone is using a ridiculously stupid powerful motor on a dry lakebed launch that gets cocked sideways. Or there is a technical problem like the power supply cuts out and the transmitter goes dead. Or recovery system failure of some kind ie. no apogee deployment, shockcord shears and rocket core samples.
I heard of a person that felt they were receiving a signal from "underground" but couldn't find the rocket as the signal was so weak. Swallowing the destruction of a $250.00 tracker (not to mention the associated rocket hardware) can be tough.

One little RDF trick applicable to rockets if a user has a Garmin (or any) GPS that has a Sight 'N Go feature (https://support.garmin.com/support/...caseId={bc1354d0-f83a-11e0-73d0-000000000000}), is to point the GPS along the receive antenna to "lock" a bearing to follow on the handheld GPS. Of course if one can "see" the descending rocket, they can sight and lock a bearing directly to the rocket as it gets close to touchdown "way out there". If the rocket completely "disappears" and a bearing acquired on the presumed descent based upon the direction of the receiving antenna, locking the bearing into a handheld GPS might make it easier to "walk the line" to the likely recovery area. True, one won't know the distance but hopefully will eventually get within range to pickup a new signal. Kurt

Click to expand...

Hi ., Thanks for the suggestons every one . A Ham radio Licence in Canada is very hard infact they apparently have classes for people to get ready for the test so I am not willing to go that route unfortunatly.
Thanks
Paul

Hi
I have a bee line 900 but I chickened out of my flights due to altimeter malfunctions . Wind blue across my AV bay when I was testing the equipment and set off both charges to duel deploy rocket. Ouch!. It looks like due to the reciever I cannot get around a large investment for these little model rockets so may be I'll choose the one that is most compact and has a range of 5 miles . Atleast thsi way I can use it in my HPR rockets.

Thanks
Paul

Paul Whalen said:

Hi ., Thanks for the suggestons every one . A Ham radio Licence in Canada is very hard infact they apparently have classes for people to get ready for the test so I am not willing to go that route unfortunatly.
Thanks
Paul

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"It's hard to get a tech license in Canada?" Wow, that's too bad. I just read a couple of ARRL books, took a bazillion online free tests and sat for the Tech and General license and passed both here in the US. Wasn't very bad at all.
What altimeter were you using that the wind across the ebay caused it to blow? Also, you should wire up empty ematch canisters (devoid of BP) and turn everything on. Rf can cause some altimeters to behave like you describe.
P6K's and Adept 22's are susceptible to stray Rf. If you do this as a test at home in non-windy conditions and the ematches pop, it's Rf and nothing to do with the wind. Yes wind can do what you described but if you haven't tested the Rf
compatibility you don't actually know. Let everything sit for 30 minutes before you determine "it's O.K." Kurt

Paul Whalen said:

Hi ., Thanks for the suggestons every one . A Ham radio Licence in Canada is very hard infact they apparently have classes for people to get ready for the test so I am not willing to go that route unfortunatly.
Thanks
Paul

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Classes are optional, just as they are in the USA. You can self study.

Here is the RAC "getting started" page: https://www.rac.ca/en/amateur-radio/beginner-info/getting-started.php

You need to correctly answer 70 out of a hundred questions. Practice exams are online at https://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/025.nsf/eng/h_00040.html

And all the Canadian Amateur Radio Basic test questions are found here. https://apc-cap.ic.gc.ca/datafiles/amateur_basic_questions_en.pdf

Bob

bobkrech said:

And all the Canadian Amateur Radio Basic test questions are found here. https://apc-cap.ic.gc.ca/datafiles/amateur_basic_questions_en.pdf

Bob

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Who knows, if you get HF privileges, you might like slinging a wire up into a tree and talking direct to folks all over the world. I had the luck when the propagation god's were smiling to talk to a fellow in Tahiti from central Illinois with just a
wire and 100 watts on the 12 meter band. (Note you don't have to do that if all you want to do is track rockets. Less study.) Kurt

ksaves2 said:

On the other hand, studying for the Ham ticket is pretty easy and the materials do touch upon radio tracking. One can learn about RDF while studying that will apply directly to tracking rockets. Kurt

Click to expand...

Hardly. While using the "AARL Ham Radio License Manual - 1st edition" to study, I found very little info relative to RDF for rocket tracking. Mostly bureaucratic mumbo-jumbo. I thus got bored with it, skipped the whole ham thing, and bought a 900 MHz BRB system instead. I learned more about RDF in this forum than in any ham-related material. Maybe I wasn't paying attention or using the right study guide...

In most countries, the principal requirement to get a amateur radio operator license "ham ticket" (Technician in the US, Basic in Canada) is that you can pass a written test to demonstrate that you understand your nation's radio transmission rules and regulations (That's the FCC radio rules and regulations in the US). In the US and Canada the list of test questions are published, and if you study/memorize the answers, the odds are pretty good that you will get a passing grade. You don't have to know much about radios and electronics, but you do have to know that frequencies you can use, and what types of equipment/signals are permitted on those frequencies. Then once you have your license, it's up for the licensee to learn what equipment to purchase and how to use it before they operate it. In the case of a special interest sector such as rocket tracking, TRF is a great resource as many members have ham licenses and track rockets.

Bob

Buckeye said:

Hardly. While using the "AARL Ham Radio License Manual - 1st edition" to study, I found very little info relative to RDF for rocket tracking. Mostly bureaucratic mumbo-jumbo. I thus got bored with it, skipped the whole ham thing, and bought a 900 MHz BRB system instead. I learned more about RDF in this forum than in any ham-related material. Maybe I wasn't paying attention or using the right study guide...

Click to expand...

Perhaps not for licensing but look up radio fox hunting and there is a lot of online information to be had. I actually found it relatively easy to study and pass the tests. There are some advantages with range with the 70cm ham trackers (RDF or GPS) but for
sport flying one won't notice the difference. In the past the "unlicensed" GPS trackers were pretty close in price to the Ham gear hence my choice. Currently there is not much advantage except some of the GPS trackers are cheaper than some of the pricey
RDF devices. Some have said, "Once one tries GPS tracking, it's tough to go back to RDF." Understand though that some rockets only have room for an RDF tracker so GPS tracking will suppliment the sport not supplant it. Kurt

ksaves2 said:

"It's hard to get a tech license in Canada?" Wow, that's too bad. I just read a couple of ARRL books, took a bazillion online free tests and sat for the Tech and General license and passed both here in the US. Wasn't very bad at all.
What altimeter were you using that the wind across the ebay caused it to blow? Also, you should wire up empty ematch canisters (devoid of BP) and turn everything on. Rf can cause some altimeters to behave like you describe.
P6K's and Adept 22's are susceptible to stray Rf. If you do this as a test at home in non-windy conditions and the ematches pop, it's Rf and nothing to do with the wind. Yes wind can do what you described but if you haven't tested the Rf
compatibility you don't actually know. Let everything sit for 30 minutes before you determine "it's O.K." Kurt

Click to expand...

Hi , It was a Telemini about 3 years old but never been off the ground .I can simulate simulate this occurence again but I will ned to set up the AV bay again. Thanks for the suggestion .

Buckeye said:

Hardly. While using the "AARL Ham Radio License Manual - 1st edition" to study, I found very little info relative to RDF for rocket tracking. Mostly bureaucratic mumbo-jumbo. I thus got bored with it, skipped the whole ham thing, and bought a 900 MHz BRB system instead. I learned more about RDF in this forum than in any ham-related material. Maybe I wasn't paying attention or using the right study guide...

Click to expand...

Hi , I do not see the need to study for a test if there is a product you do not need to write a test for . I bought the BRB 900 but I would like some thing smaller.

Sue to size I may have to write this licence. Owe wois me.

Thanks
Paul

bobkrech said:

In most countries, the principal requirement to get a amateur radio operator license "ham ticket" (Technician in the US, Basic in Canada) is that you can pass a written test to demonstrate that you understand your nation's radio transmission rules and regulations (That's the FCC radio rules and regulations in the US). In the US and Canada the list of test questions are published, and if you study/memorize the answers, the odds are pretty good that you will get a passing grade. You don't have to know much about radios and electronics, but you do have to know that frequencies you can use, and what types of equipment/signals are permitted on those frequencies. Then once you have your license, it's up for the licensee to learn what equipment to purchase and how to use it before they operate it. In the case of a special interest sector such as rocket tracking, TRF is a great resource as many members have ham licenses and track rockets.

Bob

Click to expand...

Right. The ham test encourages rote memorization of bureaucratic minutia that is easily found in the first hit of a Google search. That is not a very good test of understanding or application. That is why I found it rather meaningless for my rocket needs and went for the license-free system instead. The HPR L2 exam is much the same way, but there is no getting around that one if you want bigger motors.

Buckeye said:

Right. The ham test encourages rote memorization of bureaucratic minutia that is easily found in the first hit of a Google search. That is not a very good test of understanding or application. That is why I found it rather meaningless for my rocket needs and went for the license-free system instead. The HPR L2 exam is much the same way, but there is no getting around that one if you want bigger motors.

Click to expand...

Ahhhh, They're called rules and it's like an L2 test. Wanna an L2? Gotta take the test. Don't want an L2? Stay at L1 and don't have to take no steek'in test. I certainly remember a fair number of theory questions when I took the Tech and General tests. Sure there is some "minutiae" as there is in any stupid test one has to take to get anywhere in life.

I do believe the FCC has realized that this is a hobby, perhaps bowing to the makers of ham equipment. In the "olden" days, amateur radio was considered a "ready pool" of skilled wireless operators that could be tapped in the the event of war. Had to go to an FCC office to be tested and one might be handed a box o' parts and told to "make something" out of them. All that is totally unnecessary in this day an age. To be a courteous operator, one doesn't need to know all of the esoteric in's and out's of radio theory or Morse code.

You NEED to consider yourself lucky because not too long ago, even an "unlicensed" tracking system cost more than the Ham Radio options. Look and price what an "unlicensed" GPS tracking system cost for the "out of production ARTS deployment altimeter". Even now, the RDF systems out there are ridiculously stupid and high cost that a Ham Radio Operator has the means to research and duplicate for a heck of a lot cheaper without having to build a kit. Take the time to build a Yagi and some rudimentary soldering for an attenuator and save some beaucoup bucks.

Soooo, you have a choice. Don't want to get a license? Fine. Six years ago, you wouldn't have much choice except the $600 to $1200 tracking options. Nowadays, you have the Beeline 900Mhz, EggFinders and the outrageously priced, Com-Spec, Walston, Rocket Finder, and Marshall RDF stuff. Up to you. Now I understand the folks who "Don't want to get involve in a second hobby." O.k. but a Tech test is akin to an L2. Just memorize the stuff and get it over with. That's likely what most of the rocket flyers did. But again, the EggFinders and the TRS are nice options one doesn't need a license for, for sport flying. (Gotta get someone, a Ham perhaps? To build 'em for you. Or Connor!:wink

The Ham radio 70cm (420 to 450Mhz) stuff as a little range advantage over the 900Mhz unlicensed offerings but the sport flyer wouldn't notice the difference. They'll be able to recover their projects in tall grass and corn just fine.
Go stupid high and far like the folks out west do and your 900 Mhz system might not be up to snuff for location purposes. Kurt (I got some unlicensed stuff too)