Consensus on Drones/ RC planes at rocket launch events

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title says it all. What is the consensus on drones/ RC planes with cameras at rocket launch events? I've got a large RC plane that I like to fly around with a 2-axis mounted GoPro on the nose. It wouldn't be hard for me to put the plane up to a fixed altitude and have it do a large automated loop around the launch site and record rocket launches for an hour or so.

Obviously, the best bet is to simply show up and ask the launch director if he/she would be okay with this. However, I wanted to know your guys' opinion first.

Has anyone else done this?

thanks!
 
Tucson shares the field with r/c aircraft probably 300 yds. away. They are target practice on the way up. We are target practice on the way down. Not a big deal
 
I've seen quads at a couple launches. I bought one and put an FPV camera on it so we could search for rockets in the tall grass or alf alfa. The nice thing about the quads is that you can "park" them in a certain spot away from the crowd and rockets. I'm not sure I'd want a plane flying around though. I'm also not a fan of letting anything fly around in an automated fashion. Those are just my opinions though.

Contact your club's officers before you show up with it so the board can talk it over before the launch.
 
I'm active in both hobbies. I have flown (with permission) a Hex at a rocket launch on the far side of the pads to film the rockets

[video]https://www.youtube.com/embed/TjMNljYfatA[/video]

Not shown in this video was a very close call when a very unstable rocket came close to taking my Hex out. I didn't wish to publicize that event, especially with all the negativity to RC FPV aircraft these days. I can certainly see some awesome video coming from this activity but it would have to be approved by the launch organisers for sure and well away from people.

Cheers\

Chris
 
The biggest concern is keeping it out of the way to ensure there can be no collision (either with the rocket going up or coming down) between the two

But I can see many advantages to have the RC plane/drone to get some cool pictures and help find lost rockets.
Heck - would there be a way for a quad drone to drop a line and hook onto a rocket stuck in a tree that could be grabbed from the ground to help pull a rocket out?
 
The biggest concern is keeping it out of the way to ensure there can be no collision (either with the rocket going up or coming down) between the two

But I can see many advantages to have the RC plane/drone to get some cool pictures and help find lost rockets.
Heck - would there be a way for a quad drone to drop a line and hook onto a rocket stuck in a tree that could be grabbed from the ground to help pull a rocket out?

Thing I would worry about is the line getting caught and now your drone and the rocket are stuck in the same tree...

FC
 
CATO shares it's field with the Black Sheep Squadron. Been doing it forever...both groups are on the same page. Just gotta keep the lines of communication open, give a little respect. I'd be less happy with a rc plane parked in a pattern if there was no attendant pilot, or at least one who's only interest is keeping it away from the rockets when they come down...
 
Thanks everyone for the input!

It does seem that there is a precedent for RC guys flying around at events so long as there is proper communication and respect given, like Cbrarick has said. I feel less nervous about asking event coordinators about being able to fly my rc plane around knowing that it's done fairly frequently.

And if I do put it into a pattern, I'll be sure to be giving the plane my full-attention the whole time in order to react to any issues.

thanks!
 
If I were running a launch, I would also ensure anyone operating RC aircraft are AMA members (for insurance purposes) and following AMA guidlines which I believe requires a spotter if using FPV (first person video).
 
Prefect says negatory on our webpage. Since I'm there to fly rockets, I don't care. As far as "searching" for a lost rocket, unless it's a really pricey drone and aerial camera combo, probably a waste. If it's a really super pricey drone, one could input the lat/long from the rocket tracker to "fly" to the recovery site but heck, someone is going to go out there and recover the rocket anyways so a drone is superfluous in that case.
 
I fly aircraft as well as rockets and the answer is the same as the answer for many other things.

If everyone involved operates with common sense and mutual respect, there will not be any issues.
 
My biggest concern is most of the R/C equipment now works on 2.4ghz. There will be more use of 2.4ghz wireless electronics in flight computers. If there is such rocket electronics on the field then R/C transmitters needed to be banned for safety reasons.
 
If I were running a launch, I would also ensure anyone operating RC aircraft are AMA members

No. You would be unnecessarily be preventing people from enjoying their hobbies. Do you REQUIRE every person who flies any rocket at absolutely every launch to be an NAR member or a TRA member? Do you require anyone who sells food of any kind at a launch to have a permit, Health Inspection certificate, and insurance for selling food? Do you require any rocket vendors to have insurance? Do you require anyone selling anything to have proof they will be paying all state and local SALES TAX on everything sold? Those who use tracking beacons on "Ham" radio bands, do you check for everybody's HAM radio license? When the BATF classified APCP as explosives, did you check for all ATF permits ensure all magazines were up to spec? For that matter there are still some things that requite a BATF permit, like various ignitors and even old Thermalite, are you checking for permits for those?

I've been flying R/C since 1975, and therefore flying R/C at rocket launches since 1975. I've been flying R/C Rocket Boosted Gliders since 1980. And teaching others to fly R/C since 1977, including rocketeers at rocket launches. And an 8 year old who went from no R/C experience at all to winning a Bronze medal at the 2012 World Spacemodeling Championships 6 months later.

The main issues with R/C aircraft at launches these days is for the model aircraft to be out of the immediate area where it might be hit by a launching rocket. And flown according to the safety codes, plus some common sense ("ban first" is not common sense)

Also if the person is flying OLD R/C gear (not 2.4 gHz, but such as 72 mHz), then they have to make sure their frequency is clear for flight. In past years when everyone flew 72 mHz, with only a few dozen channels, there had to be frequency control to make sure no two fliers used the same channel at the same time. Now with the modern 2.4 gHz radios, that is not a problem as each receiver is bound to a specific transmitter.

My biggest concern is most of the R/C equipment now works on 2.4ghz. There will be more use of 2.4ghz wireless electronics in flight computers. If there is such rocket electronics on the field then R/C transmitters needed to be banned for safety reasons.

No, the modern R/C systems that use 2.4 ghz are not susceptible to interference like that. Not any more than YOUR Cellphone can be interfered with by MY cellphone when we use them next to each other at the same time. They use Spread Spectrum technology. A link to a wiki about how "Spektrum" R/C radio systems do it, which is similar to how the other brands do it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spektrum_RC

- George Gassaway

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I man putting this together for aerial photography. Will have a GPS oriented control board so it can return to home by itself and fly safely around at a launch.

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No, the modern R/C systems that use 2.4 ghz are not susceptible to interference like that. Not any more than YOUR Cellphone can be interfered with by MY cellphone when we use them next to each other at the same time. They use Spread Spectrum technology. A link to a wiki about how "Spektrum" radio systems do it, which is similar to how the other brands do it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spektrum_RC





- George Gassaway
You have my concern wrong.

I am not concerned with the rocket electronics interfering with the R/C electronics, I am concerned about the R/C transmitter hopping onto the rocket electronics when the rocket electronics is sending a command to deploy a recovery device. Rocket electronics are not bound to follow the R/C transmitting/reception standards.

The other safety issue at a launch is when a r/c person is flying his plane or copter he is concentrating on his plane or copter and not on falling rockets.

No. You would be unnecessarily be preventing people from enjoying their hobbies.

No. R/C flyers are not automatically entitled to enjoy their hobby at a rocket launch just as Rockeeters are not entitled to enjoy their hobby at an R/C field.
 
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You have my concern wrong.

I am not concerned with the rocket electronics interfering with the R/C electronics, I am concerned about the R/C transmitter hopping onto the rocket electronics when the rocket electronics is sending a command to deploy a recovery device. Rocket electronics are not bound to follow the R/C transmitting/reception standards.

The other safety issue at a launch is when a r/c person is flying his plane or copter he is concentrating on his plane or copter and not on falling rockets.



No. R/C flyers are not automatically entitled to enjoy their hobby at a rocket launch just as Rockeeters are not entitled to enjoy their hobby at an R/C field.

Absolutely, no R/C flyer has the right to exercise their hobby at a launchsite unless the controlling entity gives the O.K. If they say no, then no. Kurt
 
Rocket electronics are not bound to follow the R/C transmitting/reception standards.
True enough, but any radio system operating on open bands had better be frequency-hopping to some degree to survive unavoidable interference from other devices, regardless of whether they are officially allowed near the launch site or not.
 
True enough, but any radio system operating on open bands had better be frequency-hopping to some degree to survive unavoidable interference from other devices, regardless of whether they are officially allowed near the launch site or not.

Low power network devices do not use frequency hopping they use carrier sensing before transmission to avoid interference. That and distance will is more than enough to avoid the stray 2.4ghz signal interference. Frequency hopping is required for high power output devices that can operate in a continuous mode.

That is alot different that a continuous 200mw R/C transmitter hopping around perhaps less than 100 feet from low power 2.4ghz rocket electronics. That interference source is avoidable.
 
R/C flyers are not automatically entitled to enjoy their hobby at a rocket launch just as Rockeeters are not entitled to enjoy their hobby at an R/C field.

Oh, that is total B.S. when we are talking about THE SAME PEOPLE! Rocketeers who also fly R/C.

But you are making it clear whose launches I would NEVER want to attend, with "ban first" closed minds like that.

Model Rocketry and R/C have been flown mixed together since the 1960's. Then after 50 years of rocketeers HAVING FUN doing both, some people want to TURN it into a problem.

- George Gassaway

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You have my concern wrong.

I am not concerned with the rocket electronics interfering with the R/C electronics, I am concerned about the R/C transmitter hopping onto the rocket electronics when the rocket electronics is sending a command to deploy a recovery device. Rocket electronics are not bound to follow the R/C transmitting/reception standards.

If the rocket electronics are THAT sensitive, I dare to suggest it's NOT SAFE TO EVER FLY? Because there's all sorts of 2.4 gHz signals in the air, an R/C transmitter probably being the least of the problem.

Can you give me a link to EXACTLY what kind of rocket electronics you are taking about that a 2.4 gHz R/C system can cause to go off, or not to fire when needed? I cannot think of any onboard rocket ejection system that would be using 2.4 gHz for any purpose to fire anything..... it would be hardwired.

Can you cite known specific examples where a technical expert came to this conclusion?

If you mean something so susceptible to any electronic emission in general, DO be sure to ban and/or confiscate ALL Cell phones, FRS radios, all WiFi devices (including computers) , car keys with wireless keyfobs for car alarms, and any other devices that emits a radio signal of any kind.

Oh yes, also ban onboard tracking devices, no rockets can be allowed to transmit anything either, if radio transmission are such a risk.

Or else use a rocket electronics system that is not such an unsafe piece of garbage that it would go off due to any other electronics device transmitting a signal.

A flaky rocket electronics system that can be interfered with due to radio transmissions is what you need to BAN!

- George Gassaway
 
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That is alot different that a continuous 200mw R/C transmitter hopping around perhaps less than 100 feet from low power 2.4ghz rocket electronics. That interference source is avoidable.
My rockets often have a 250 mW 2.4 GHz XBee transmitter in the nose cone for GPS and IMU downlink, and I would avoid any electronics that would have a problem with that.
 
My rockets often have a 250 mW 2.4 GHz XBee transmitter in the nose cone for GPS and IMU downlink, and I would avoid any electronics that would have a problem with that.

That should not be a problem with the devices I am referring to. The concern is with signal blocking. The 2.4ghz network devices have an acknowledge retry cycle built in so if there is an inadvertent packet collision, the device will retry the transmission. Packet devices are generally well behaved. Perhaps the R/c devices are also.

George: You can fly whatever r/c device you want at any launch I am at.:D
 
It is certainly not uncommon to have a few RC rocket or boost gliders at a launch. Most these days operate on 2.4.

I am also working on a simple servo operated cable release for RC dual deployment sans pyrotechnics. It is on 2.4.

The simple answer is for anyone that is worried about 2.4 interference with their rocket telemetry is that you make a request for all other 2.4 systems do be turned off during your flight. This takes very unlikely chance of 2.4 interference from very close to zero to zero, except for stray 2.4 in the ambient background at your site.

Anyone using 2.4 for RC rocketry purposes at a launch has precisely as much right to use 2.4 as the person does that is using it for telemetry purposes.

Before assuming that 2.4 RC is going to bother 2.4 telemetry, a reasonable person would test to see if it is an issue.
 
That should not be a problem with the devices I am referring to. The concern is with signal blocking. The 2.4ghz network devices have an acknowledge retry cycle built in so if there is an inadvertent packet collision, the device will retry the transmission. Packet devices are generally well behaved. Perhaps the R/c devices are also.

George: You can fly whatever r/c device you want at any launch I am at.:D


Given that more than 100 RC aircraft have flown simultaneously on 2.4 with no significant issues, you are right that RC on 2.4 is well behaved. I attend a LOT of RC fly ins where there are 6-8 guys flying at once and another 20-30 radios on in the pit area with zero problems.
 
For BALLS we have no issues with RC in rocket powered projects. They have typically been spectacular.

As for "drones" my rule is the flyer must have their own rocket project and not fly over/near the spectator area or other people on the range. This is apparently a very difficult concept.
People do not like the quad/hex flying near them, I think it has to do with the spinning knives of death.
If someone showed up with a airplane and wanted it to circle the site I would say no.

Go to an AMA event and ask to launch rockets and see what they say.

M
 
For BALLS we have no issues with RC in rocket powered projects. They have typically been spectacular.

As for "drones" my rule is the flyer must have their own rocket project and not fly over/near the spectator area or other people on the range. This is apparently a very difficult concept.
People do not like the quad/hex flying near them, I think it has to do with the spinning knives of death.
If someone showed up with a airplane and wanted it to circle the site I would say no.

Go to an AMA event and ask to launch rockets and see what they say.

M

Sounds like a sensible policy to me. Also agree that some quad pilots are problematic at events.

While I firmly support sensible and safe FPV and quads doing video at model events, a distressing number of these pilots seem to think they have a God given right to fly anywhere and everywhere they wish at an event.

One minor correction. I attended two AMA model events last year (out of 9 total) where rockets were flown during the event. And not just RC rocket gliders, either.
 
I have no problem with "drones" at rocket launches (they make for great video of the event) however the thought of one flying on autopilot means the possibility of a rocket/drone mid-air goes up pretty dramatically with safety concerns as well as monetary. In matters related to rocketry and flight, whatever can happen inevitably does happen.

Don't fly over spectators, launch pads, parking lots, and stay on the stick while your "drone" is airborne, please.
 
Given that more than 100 RC aircraft have flown simultaneously on 2.4 with no significant issues, you are right that RC on 2.4 is well behaved. I attend a LOT of RC fly ins where there are 6-8 guys flying at once and another 20-30 radios on in the pit area with zero problems.

The only potential issue with a quad and "surprise 2.4G transmissions" is if the quad is using a 2.4 video downlink. The ground-based receiver for the video link can/will get swamped by the 2.4G transmissions of another RC transmitter, or potentially by a rocket device. It's well known in FPV that a 2.4G video link can't be used in conjunction with a 2.4 flight control. A UHF control will play nicely, or a 5.8G video link with a 2.4G control will work. To get good video, a quad would likely be flown FPV using a video downlink with a separate recording camera on board.

N
 
The problems I've seen reported were due to the 2.4ghz camera swamping the RC radio's receiver due to their close proximity. I'm running a 5.8ghz video TX on mine to avoid this problem.
 
1. If the launchsite is for "rockets only" that's what it should remain unless the landowner clears it for both activities. If it's a shared municipal site, then
it's presumed that the respective parties know how to act and what is expected. Mark's points made in post #25 should be well understood.

2. R/C boost gliders are rockets so that's not a problem. Should keep George happy.

3. Prefect or club president says no to drones/planes/gliders/helicopters (outside of boost gliders), it's no. He/she may know something the rest of the membership doesn't know like details in point 1.

4. Sure, somebody wants to make prior arrangements to get a flightline video shot before launching commences o.k. but the nature is understood beforehand. Not some dude who shows up and starts flying their R/C device on their whim.
 
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