woferry
Well-Known Member
I've posted a similar question around the CTI spacer system, which makes a lot more sense to me. I find AeroTech's case naming system rather confusing (at first I thought it had to do with the length, I understand now that it's a rough max impulse indication, but looking at total impulse for various AT reloads it doesn't appear to be a rigid rule, there being a 1814N motor in the 54/1706 case for instance). Honestly I'm more likely to go with CTI for reloads due to the larger number of options in each case size / diameter, but I'd still like to understand the AT RAS in case I do consider it later (and I figure this may help others as well). So the pitch of the RAS is that it lets you fly more reloads with fewer cases, but nobody seems to say which cases you need to cover the largest number of sizes, so that's what I'm trying to clarify here, especially since I believe there are invalid combinations in the AT cases, which I do not believe is the case for CTI and their spacer system (noting the cases where an XL spacer is required instead of [or in addition to] the standard spacer).
So I'm hoping somebody 'in the know' can confirm or correct these statements (feel free to comment on as much or as little as you know for certain, i.e. first-hand experience):
29mm: There are 6 'standard' cases, plus one special one which doesn't support the RAS (the 29/40-120): 29/60, 29/100, 29/120, 29/180, 29/240 and 29/360. The 29/100 appears to be an odd size, and the 29/360 is more than one "unit" longer than the 29/240. But going by the case lengths listed in AT's 2009-2010 catalog (the latest I can find), the length difference between the 29/60 and 29/120 is also different (2") than 29/120 to 29/180 (1.75") or 29/180 to 29/240 (1.76").
It appears the 29mm RAS kit comes with 3 spacers, two 'standard' and one 'extended'. I'm pretty sure the 29/240 can adapt down to 29/180 with one standard spacer, and 29/120 with two spacers, and similarly a 29/180 could adapt down to 29/120 with one spacer, though I believe it cannot adapt down to 29/60 using two spacers(?). The 29/360 requires one standard and one extended to adapt down to 29/240 reloads, but you can't add the second standard spacer to get down to 29/180 due to the "no more than 2 spacers" rule. So even with the 29mm RAS kit, it seems to me you would still need the 29/60, 29/100, one of 29/180 or 29/240, and the 29/360 case to cover every reload in this diameter. Effectively, the 29mm RAS kit lets you eliminate 2 cases at best? Still saves money, but only reduces 6 cases to 4.
Right now (just FYI in case anybody else cares), my tally of reloads available for each 29mm case size (using BAR's current store list) is as follows: 29/60: Fx2; 29/100: Gx2, 29/120: Gx3, 29/180: Gx1, Hx3; 29/240: Hx5, 29/360: Hx1, Ix1 (18 reloads total: Fx2, Gx6, Hx9, Ix1).
38mm: There are 8 cases: 38/120, 38/240, 38/360, 38/480, 38/600, 38/720, 38/1080 and 38/1320. The first 6 have 1.875" between them, and 38/1080 is 5.625" longer than the 38/720, and the 2009-2010 catalog doesn't mention the 38/1320 so I don't know its length (the number is 240 more, which suggests it *may* be 3.75" longer and work with two spacers). 5.625 happens to be 3x 1.875 (just as the number is 3x 120 more), but since only 2 spacers are provided/allowed that wouldn't seem to let the 38/1080 get down to the 38/720 size.
The 38mm RAS kit seems to come with two equal length spacers. Based on the length deltas, this would seem to work with any case from the 38/720 down to 38/240. So you could buy the 38/360 and 38/720 and the RAS to cover everything from 38/120 up to 38/720, for 38/1320 you need that case, and I'm guessing the same is true for 38/1080 (or can two spacers adapt the 38/1320 to a 38/1080)? So it seems to me you could fly the entire 38mm reload line with 4 cases instead of 8 using the 38mm RAS, or perhaps 3 instead of 8 if the 38/1320 can be adapted.
Right now, my tally of reloads available for each 38mm case size is as follows: 38/120: Gx4; 38/240: Hx5, 38/360: Hx4, Ix5; 38/480: Ix7; 38/600: Ix5; 38/720: Ix3, Jx4; 38/1080: Jx3; 38/1320: Jx1 (41 reloads total: Gx4, Hx9, Ix20, Jx8).
54mm: There are 6 cases: 54/426, 54/852, 54/1280, 54/1706, 54/2560 and 54/2800. The first 4 have ~3.33" between them, the 54/2560 is 6.65" longer than the 54/1706 and the 54/2800 is 1.82" longer than the 54/2560. The extra length of the 54/2650 is basically 2x that of the smaller case deltas, so it's not clear to me whether a 54/2560 with two spacers can take the place of a 54/1706 or not (but it seems like it should). The 54/2800 certainly does not appear to work with the RAS.
The 54mm RAS kit seems to come with two equal length spacers. Based on the length deltas, this would seem to work with any case from the 54/852 to the 54/1706, and the 54/2560 can possibly be adapted down to handle 54/1706 reloads(?). If the 54/2560->1706 works then it seems like you could fly all 54mm reloads using the RAS and the 54/1280, 54/2560 and 54/2800 cases (3 cases instead of 6).
Right now, my tally of reloads available for each 54mm case size is as follows: 54/426: Ix6; 54/852: Jx7; 54/1280: Jx6; 54/1706: Kx9; 54/2560: Kx6; 54/2800: Kx1 (35 reloads total: Ix6, Jx13, Kx16).
75mm & beyond: There is no RAS for these larger motors, you need the appropriate case for the reload you buy. I didn't count the reload options above 54mm as I'm not expecting to go beyond a 54mm mount just yet.
I think I've also read that some AeroTech case sizes are compatible with CTI reloads (I think this includes 54mm and perhaps larger)? Is there a mapping of what AeroTech case matches which CTI case? Is it an unwise idea to consider the use of spacers even if mixing cases and reloads is an option here? If it's not an issue, presumably you'd want to use the CTI spacers with a CTI reload in an oversized AeroTech case? If it is an issue, this certainly might influence which cases you'd want to buy if there were "interesting" CTI reloads that would be compatible with that AT case.
Now of course I realize not everyone wants every case. For example, the 38/1320 and 54/2800 seem to have very little value since each one only has a single reload option (the 38/1320 is a bit better sell if it can be RAS-adapted to support 38/1080 reloads). I'm just trying to understand the 'worst case' for each motor diameter for AeroTech and CTI to avoid any 'surprises' later.
As my first posts here, I'm not sure whether I can edit it after the fact or not. If I can I can apply any corrections to the text above, so perhaps the top of this thread can serve as a reference.
Thank you in advance!
Will Ferry
NAR #96512, L1
TRA #15328, L1
L1: 9/2013 @ XPRS, GLR T-Bolt "Thunderbolt" (R.I.P.), H148R
Impulse flown: 2013: 767N, 2014: 4298N
Launches & Videos
So I'm hoping somebody 'in the know' can confirm or correct these statements (feel free to comment on as much or as little as you know for certain, i.e. first-hand experience):
29mm: There are 6 'standard' cases, plus one special one which doesn't support the RAS (the 29/40-120): 29/60, 29/100, 29/120, 29/180, 29/240 and 29/360. The 29/100 appears to be an odd size, and the 29/360 is more than one "unit" longer than the 29/240. But going by the case lengths listed in AT's 2009-2010 catalog (the latest I can find), the length difference between the 29/60 and 29/120 is also different (2") than 29/120 to 29/180 (1.75") or 29/180 to 29/240 (1.76").
It appears the 29mm RAS kit comes with 3 spacers, two 'standard' and one 'extended'. I'm pretty sure the 29/240 can adapt down to 29/180 with one standard spacer, and 29/120 with two spacers, and similarly a 29/180 could adapt down to 29/120 with one spacer, though I believe it cannot adapt down to 29/60 using two spacers(?). The 29/360 requires one standard and one extended to adapt down to 29/240 reloads, but you can't add the second standard spacer to get down to 29/180 due to the "no more than 2 spacers" rule. So even with the 29mm RAS kit, it seems to me you would still need the 29/60, 29/100, one of 29/180 or 29/240, and the 29/360 case to cover every reload in this diameter. Effectively, the 29mm RAS kit lets you eliminate 2 cases at best? Still saves money, but only reduces 6 cases to 4.
Right now (just FYI in case anybody else cares), my tally of reloads available for each 29mm case size (using BAR's current store list) is as follows: 29/60: Fx2; 29/100: Gx2, 29/120: Gx3, 29/180: Gx1, Hx3; 29/240: Hx5, 29/360: Hx1, Ix1 (18 reloads total: Fx2, Gx6, Hx9, Ix1).
38mm: There are 8 cases: 38/120, 38/240, 38/360, 38/480, 38/600, 38/720, 38/1080 and 38/1320. The first 6 have 1.875" between them, and 38/1080 is 5.625" longer than the 38/720, and the 2009-2010 catalog doesn't mention the 38/1320 so I don't know its length (the number is 240 more, which suggests it *may* be 3.75" longer and work with two spacers). 5.625 happens to be 3x 1.875 (just as the number is 3x 120 more), but since only 2 spacers are provided/allowed that wouldn't seem to let the 38/1080 get down to the 38/720 size.
The 38mm RAS kit seems to come with two equal length spacers. Based on the length deltas, this would seem to work with any case from the 38/720 down to 38/240. So you could buy the 38/360 and 38/720 and the RAS to cover everything from 38/120 up to 38/720, for 38/1320 you need that case, and I'm guessing the same is true for 38/1080 (or can two spacers adapt the 38/1320 to a 38/1080)? So it seems to me you could fly the entire 38mm reload line with 4 cases instead of 8 using the 38mm RAS, or perhaps 3 instead of 8 if the 38/1320 can be adapted.
Right now, my tally of reloads available for each 38mm case size is as follows: 38/120: Gx4; 38/240: Hx5, 38/360: Hx4, Ix5; 38/480: Ix7; 38/600: Ix5; 38/720: Ix3, Jx4; 38/1080: Jx3; 38/1320: Jx1 (41 reloads total: Gx4, Hx9, Ix20, Jx8).
54mm: There are 6 cases: 54/426, 54/852, 54/1280, 54/1706, 54/2560 and 54/2800. The first 4 have ~3.33" between them, the 54/2560 is 6.65" longer than the 54/1706 and the 54/2800 is 1.82" longer than the 54/2560. The extra length of the 54/2650 is basically 2x that of the smaller case deltas, so it's not clear to me whether a 54/2560 with two spacers can take the place of a 54/1706 or not (but it seems like it should). The 54/2800 certainly does not appear to work with the RAS.
The 54mm RAS kit seems to come with two equal length spacers. Based on the length deltas, this would seem to work with any case from the 54/852 to the 54/1706, and the 54/2560 can possibly be adapted down to handle 54/1706 reloads(?). If the 54/2560->1706 works then it seems like you could fly all 54mm reloads using the RAS and the 54/1280, 54/2560 and 54/2800 cases (3 cases instead of 6).
Right now, my tally of reloads available for each 54mm case size is as follows: 54/426: Ix6; 54/852: Jx7; 54/1280: Jx6; 54/1706: Kx9; 54/2560: Kx6; 54/2800: Kx1 (35 reloads total: Ix6, Jx13, Kx16).
75mm & beyond: There is no RAS for these larger motors, you need the appropriate case for the reload you buy. I didn't count the reload options above 54mm as I'm not expecting to go beyond a 54mm mount just yet.
I think I've also read that some AeroTech case sizes are compatible with CTI reloads (I think this includes 54mm and perhaps larger)? Is there a mapping of what AeroTech case matches which CTI case? Is it an unwise idea to consider the use of spacers even if mixing cases and reloads is an option here? If it's not an issue, presumably you'd want to use the CTI spacers with a CTI reload in an oversized AeroTech case? If it is an issue, this certainly might influence which cases you'd want to buy if there were "interesting" CTI reloads that would be compatible with that AT case.
Now of course I realize not everyone wants every case. For example, the 38/1320 and 54/2800 seem to have very little value since each one only has a single reload option (the 38/1320 is a bit better sell if it can be RAS-adapted to support 38/1080 reloads). I'm just trying to understand the 'worst case' for each motor diameter for AeroTech and CTI to avoid any 'surprises' later.
As my first posts here, I'm not sure whether I can edit it after the fact or not. If I can I can apply any corrections to the text above, so perhaps the top of this thread can serve as a reference.
Thank you in advance!
Will Ferry
NAR #96512, L1
TRA #15328, L1
L1: 9/2013 @ XPRS, GLR T-Bolt "Thunderbolt" (R.I.P.), H148R
Impulse flown: 2013: 767N, 2014: 4298N
Launches & Videos