Estes Patriot M-104 18mm To 24mm REBUILD. Now W/Booster!

TopRamen said:

I absolutely LOVE Nose Weight!!! It's one of my favorite parts of doing a build!
If you want a Performance Rocket there are plenty of those 3FNC MD Jobs.
I personally don't burn enough propellant to worry about maximizing things like altitude or speed for any given Motor. An L1 is a long way off for me, as the only Club in my State supposedly does'nt even have a Field to fly at still, and I have yet to be able to scrounge up the Funds for an NAR Membership.
I'de be happy with a semi-scale Patriot that stayed around 800ft. or less on Composite SU G Motors.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I'm not into performance rockets either, and not against nose weight --- just pointing out you would probably need some for a scale model adapted from a Leviathan. My Leviathan keeps well below 1,000 feet on Econojet F motors, which is what I use a lot of the time. It goes over 1,000 on G's. Maybe if you did make one into a scale Patriot, glassed it, and added enough weight to make it stable, you might end up with a rocket heavy enough to keep under 1,000 feet on G motors.

I prefer keeping them low and slow with drag, not weight. One rocket I am hoping Santa will bring to me is a G-Force --- 4" airframe, and stays under 1,000 feet on G motors. I've seen pics of them painted in missile livery. Some look OK, but the fin shape and the fact it has 3 fins means it's not very convincing. I'll probably opt for a sport paint job. I'm looking forward to that rocket for the low and slow G motor flights.

My L1 flight was about 800 feet on a Single Use AT H115DM drilled to a 6-second delay. The rocket has a lot of drag --- Mega Der Red Max with pods on the fins. It goes about 400 to 500 feet on G motors, which is what I usually use. I know you prefer rockets with a military missile style, and this is definitely not like that, but the high drag gives the kinds of flights you are looking for. You want a 4" or more airframe with some draggy fins, but not so heavy you are forced to get your certification. (That's why I got my L1 cert --- the pod rocket went over the weight limit and needed L1 to fly it at all, even on G motors.)

I had a G-Force back in 2000-2001. I had 5 great flights before one day when I launched it with wind and it was carried into the Trees.
It had been treed once before, but a Chainsaw and the death of 4 Trees got it back for me, but the last flight put it into a spot where I'de need to do some serious Clear Cutting, so in the Tree it stayed.
It was a great Rocket though. R.I.P. G-Force.

TopRamen said:

I had a G-Force back in 2000-2001. I had 5 great flights before one day when I launched it with wind and it was carried into the Trees.
It had been treed once before, but a Chainsaw and the death of 4 Trees got it back for me, but the last flight put it into a spot where I'de need to do some serious Clear Cutting, so in the Tree it stayed.
It was a great Rocket though. R.I.P. G-Force.

View attachment 249332

Click to expand...

Sorry to hear about the long-lost G-Force. I'm really looking forward to this rocket!

EDIT: And now the single-use G motors are coming in all kinds of "flavors" too! In the pod rocket, I've used G79 White, G77 Red, G78 Green. They've got the longer burning ones too --- G40 White and G38 Black. And now they even have a single use "sparky" --- G75! I'm looking forward to all of the ones I haven't tried yet. There's the G80 too, but I'm not as big a fan of the Blue Thunder. And there is the G74 EconoMax that I have used in my Leviathan --- it's a good deal, but I think I like the others better.

ThirstyBarbarian said:

Sorry to hear about the long-lost G-Force. I'm really looking forward to this rocket!

EDIT: And now the single-use G motors are coming in all kinds of "flavors" too! In the pod rocket, I've used G79 White, G77 Red, G78 Green. They've got the longer burning ones too --- G40 White and G38 Black. And now they even have a single use "sparky" --- G75! I'm looking forward to all of the ones I haven't tried yet. There's the G80 too, but I'm not as big a fan of the Blue Thunder. And there is the G74 EconoMax that I have used in my Leviathan --- it's a good deal, but I think I like the others better.

Click to expand...

Yeah, back when I did my G-Force, there was only G-40 and G-80 as far as I was aware. I had'nt even learned to use the Internet back then, so I only knew what the Guy at the Hobby Store could get me.
That's how I did my first Mid-Power actually. Someone had ordered a G40, and never came in to pick it up. I did not realize that anything bigger than D Motors were available, and knew nothing about Composites. I found it on the shelf, and asked about it. I had to order the Aerotech Controller to light the Ignitor that came with it.
They did'nt have any Rockets to fit it, so I scratch built one out of a Tube I found at the Hardware Store I worked at. They did have a 3" Nose Cone in the Misc. Parts., and with a few wraps of Tape the Cone fit my Tube.
Sims were not known to me either, but I had played with many an Estes Kit and a couple of the Estes "Builders Packs" throughout my life, so I knew how to build a stable Rocket. It was just a squat 3FNC Job, but boy was it great fun to fly, until on like its 4th flight it too ended up in some Trees on a G80, only a lot further away.
That's when I went ahead and had the Hobby Shop order me the G-Force.
Funny part is, I've been back into Rockets for a little over a Year, and though I have 2 29mm Birds in my Fleet, I have yet to fly them.
I'll get around to it when I find a bigger Field. I was lucky back in 1999-2001, as I was flying where there were lots of Trees, but without any Wind I could usually land them in the Field.

I got the Rail Guides fitted and screwed on. It may be ready to launch before I get Paint on her, so this is important. I can just unscrew the lower one before I paint the Tail Section.
I like ACME Conformal Guides because they come in packs of two, but you can cut each one in half to do two Rockets with one pack.
They just require a little polishing with sandpaper though as the are kinda' rough out of the package.
I love these things!

FWIW my 3" patriot does about a 1000' on an F52-6, dunno what it would do with a G64-7...haven't had the desire to find out .
Rex

I have'nt done the Nose Weight yet, but with the Streamer and Shock Cord and a E20 loaded, it only weighs 6.2oz.
That's well below what happened when I built in in Open Rocket.
Here is some Pics' to include it balancing at it's loaded CG.

I went back to my Sim and looked to find out what the discrepency was. Turns out the Sim had added 2.something ounces for the Fins, because I had selected Fiberglass. The Sim does not include the option of 1.5oz. Fiberglass Cloth covered Papered Balsa.
I looked at everything else, lowered the amount of Nose Weight, then ran the Flight Simulations again.
Things look more like reality now.
Anyway, with the new figures for necessary Nose Weight, I went ahead and made up my Bulkhead and then added .55 oz. of Lead to the Nose Tip. It says .65oz. in the Pic', but that's because I did'nt hit Tear for the .1oz. of the plastic cup. I figure I used about that much 15 Minute Epoxy, so it all balances out anyway.

I have since upgraded my OR to version 14.something, and it has the F44-8W.
Just for funs I did a Sim with the Cesaroni F240 and it left the Rail at 184fps.:y:

TopRamen said:

I have since upgraded my OR to version 14.something, and it has the F44-8W.
Just for funs I did a Sim with the Cesaroni F240 and it left the Rail at 184fps.:y:

Click to expand...

You know CTI makes 24mm G motors....:wink:

TopRamen said:

Just for funs I did a Sim with the Cesaroni F240 and it left the Rail at 184fps.:y:

Click to expand...

I routinely fly my Big Daddy on the F240, avg 144ft/s and right at 1000ft. (weighs 17oz with motor and 4oz of nose weight)
I love that motor

rocketgeek101 said:

You know CTI makes 24mm G motors....:wink:

Click to expand...

I did run a Sim with the G55 and a 15 second Delay, and it went like 2500' high or some nonsense like that.
I'de never see it again if that were to happen. I'm not L1 yet, so the F240 would not happen anyway, but it is fun to see it simmed.

Well, nothing left to do but add some Paint, and according to the Weather Report that will happen over the next few days. The High-Build Primer, tiny bit of Bondo Putty and Paint for the Tail Section should bring my weight and CG right in line with my revised OR Sim.

Unloaded:



Loaded with E20-4W:

Primer. Rusto High Build actually seems to cover quite nicely in the cold I have found. Nice and thick to fill in the Glass Cloth texture.

I have to say, I really like the way the Tip to Tip Glassing works, and the way it negates the need for Fillets.

I bagged the work so that I could bring it inside without fear of all those nasty Fumes off-gassing inside my house. Now it can warm up and take its time drying/curing while hanging up in the laundry room.

Rather that Paint the Nose Cone, I simply touched a Permanent Marker to the exposed Toothpicks that anchor the Nose Weight to the Tip, and then just glazed the entire thing with 20 Minute Finish Cure Epoxy, applied and smoothed with my Finger in my Nitrile Glove.:w:

This morning I was able to bondo, sand and then paint.



Now I have a 24mm Fiberglassed M-104

It turned out pretty nice! I imagine that should move out pretty well on just about any 24mm motor.

Thanks Thirsty.

Some more pics':

I have been sewing my Shock Cords on as of late, rather than affixing them with ugly knots. A little Heat Shrink Tubing finishes them nicely.



Loaded with E20:

Now that I have all my Final Weight Figures, I was able to go revise my Sim by Mass Overiding the Body Tube, removing 1.5oz.
Now all my figures line up exactly and I was able to run my Sims again.
It will go 542 Ft. on a D12-3, which will be fine for flying in our Park, but on stuff like the E-20, it's up over a thousand, so that will have to wait til' a Frozen Lake or a bigger field.
A C11-3 kicks it off the Rail at 57fps, and apogees at 221 Feet and deploys the Streamer nearly perfectly at apogee.
Looks like I'll try a C11-3 in there first just for funs!!!

I'm very happy with the way this project turned out.

I had missed the earlier post about the ACME Conformal Rail Guides and then saw them in the last set of pics. Those things are great! I used them on my last rocket, and I'm planning on using them from now on. Do you always screw them on? I've been using JB Weld and no screws.

ThirstyBarbarian said:

I had missed the earlier post about the ACME Conformal Rail Guides and then saw them in the last set of pics. Those things are great! I used them on my last rocket, and I'm planning on using them from now on. Do you always screw them on? I've been using JB Weld and no screws.

Click to expand...

I do always screw them on. On my previous cardboard tube/phenolic tube rockets, I first added a "Riser" and used longer or larger screws.
On my BT-60 AIM-120 and this one, I made the holes before paint, but after glass. Then I screw them in and remove them. Then I put a drop of thin CA in the holes to seal them up, and once again poke a needle in to clear excess glue. I prime/paint right over the hole, and this further tightens them up. Then, after the paint dries I just screw them on and snug them down tight. The Hardening from the Thin CA is apparent as they tighten down nicely.
I have considered using a spot of JB Weld as well as the screws, but the screws seem to work well enough.
I actually rough up the bottom of the Guides with 60 grit sandpaper and a few cuts with a Hobbyknife, as if I'm going to glue them on, and incase I decide to later, but they lock on pretty tight. I can't pull them free by hand, as I have tried.
I really need to get an X/Y Table for my Drill Press, as it seems I always manage to cut the holes in the guides slightly off center. It's hard working on such a small scale with just a piece of scrap basswood clamped to the Press Table to butt the guide up against.
I cut the holes first, then place them on the body tube and poke through the holes with my little tool I made, which is essentially just a needle in a dowel for punching tiny holes.

What exactly do you do in OpenRocket to determine you need to add nose weight and how much to add?

ewg1967 said:

What exactly do you do in OpenRocket to determine you need to add nose weight and how much to add?

Click to expand...

I just look at my Stability Margin and try to get it around 1.3-1.5 Calibers of stability.
I likely could have gotten away with less Weight on this one, but open rocket says it will fly, and without even consulting Open Rocket, I could have just balanced it in my Hand like I usually do.
I only did the Sim because some people here don't enjoy watching anyone work on Rockets unless there is some Simming.
I enjoyed playing with the Sim, and will be doing it again on some of my future builds, even though I fear it will eventually lead to me building an unstable Rocket just because the Sim says it is okay, but I don't use my Mindsim and Common Sense.
Look at my Martel Thread, I Mindsimmed that one, and see how great it flies? If I had wasted time with a Computer Sim, I''de probably have ended up like one of those folks that have a "Failed TLP Kit Flight do to Unstability".
That, or I would still be hesitating and second guessing myself while building it, and that would have SUCKED ALL THE FUN OUT OF IT!!!

A lot of Folks here start building a Rocket, then never finish because they second guess themselves, or others second guess their Judgement.
In the end for them, nothing gets built, and it is very sad.

As far as your Question about what I do in OpenRocket, I'de have to say that I'm not even qualified to answer that in an authoritative manner, as I have only used it a few times, and just bungled my way through the process. I'm an OpenRocket Idiot, so I defer that question to those that actually use it and rely on it.

I loaded a C11-3 into her today and met my Son at his Bus Stop which is half way between our House and our Park. It is pretty windy today, but the Sim said something like 221ft. Apogee, and since she has a Streamer I was determined to Fly. It was 10 Degrees outside, so we had to move fast.
Success!

[video=youtube;Rm5Z3X47B_M]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rm5Z3X47B_M&feature=youtu.be[/video]

It was actually a double success, as it was also my first time using my "Augmented Ignitors". The Igniter in this one was a "Starter", but I added my own "Goody", as the thought of just a Wire with no Pyrogen makes me angry, and I can't stand to see them like that.
My Hobby Shop still has plenty of the old type with pyrogen, but these "Starters" came with a pack of Motors.

TopRamen said:

I loaded a C11-3 into her today and met my Son at his Bus Stop which is half way between our House and our Park. It is pretty windy today, but the Sim said something like 221ft. Apogee, and since she has a Streamer I was determined to Fly. It was 10 Degrees outside, so we had to move fast.
Success!

[video=youtube;Rm5Z3X47B_M]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rm5Z3X47B_M&feature=youtu.be[/video]

View attachment 250844

View attachment 250845

Click to expand...

Nice job TR!

USAFmissileer said:

Nice job TR!

Click to expand...

Thanks. It was just a C11, but it shows me that it flies and recovers, so a D or an E can wait til' the nice weather and a bigger Field.
I was actually surprised at how well the C11 worked. I'de never used them before, and thought they would have a little less oomph.
Flight Duration was was 2 seconds longer than Openrocket suggested it would be, and I estimated altitude closer to 300 feet than 221.
If you look closely at the Video, you'll note that it weathercocked slightly, but I expected this as it was fairly breezy. This particular Rocket weathercocked often even in its original stock configuration.