Estes Patriot M-104 18mm To 24mm REBUILD. Now W/Booster!

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TopRamen

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I just got some Nose Cones so that I could replace the Cone on my Patriot that I took to use for my BT-60 based AIM-120 AMRAAM Scratch Build.
I'm going to cut it and couple in a newly made 24mm MMT/Fin Can. I'll also be removing the Launch Lug and using Buttons or Acme Conformal Rail Guide.
I'm not trying to make it anything special, or even Scale for that matter, just going to make it take the bigger motors.
I'll add the apropriate amount of Nose Weight when I get to that point.
This has been a "Beater" of a Rocket. Quite rugged, and I got rid of the Chute' in favor of Streamers.
I just needed something else to keep me busy so I decided that this would be fun to tinker with.
Here she is before I get started:

Upgrade M-104 002.jpg
 
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Rather than have to paper Fins, then wait for them to dry and set, I grabbed up the already papered set that I had from a V2 Kit that I used/stole all the other parts from. When I cut open the Rocket, it had that familiar residue of BP Ejecta coating the inner wall.
I can't stand that, because it absorbs moisture from the Air and just rots away in there making the cardboard soft. On all of my most recent builds I have soaked the inner walls down with thin CA. I cleaned the inner wall out as best I could with tissues, then took the tube outside and drizzled CA down it from the lower end, so as to leave myself an uncoated inch at the rear where my Coupler will get epoxied in.
I also cut away the launch lug and started sanding it away.

Upgrade M-104 005.jpg
 
Interesting, my Estes Patriot has balsa fins, not a fin can. Maybe they changed the design. I've had mine a few years.
 
I built 2, both with balsa fins. Did one with a std. mmt, one ready for painting I put in a 24mm mmt.
I'll have to check RockSim to see if nose weight is required. Don't think I did any flight sims on the 24mm one.
I'll check it out and Edit this post if extra nose weight is required. It would help if you could give me the engine you planned on using.
 
It's four fins and a nose cone. We really don't need to sim things like this. I've been building Rockets(on and off, but never unstable) since 86'.
When it's finished, I'll stick a Motor in it and balance it on my hand, then decide if I need more nose weight than I already planned to add.
The Bottom of the Cone will be cut off, and I'll use a bulkhead instead of leaving the cone Stock. The Screw Eye Bolt and bulkhead alone may be plenty of added weight.
As for Motors, I'll run it on a D12 first, then I'll go to the E20, then we'll see what else looks like a good Idea.
I'm not going for Performance here, and as usual with my builds, the lower and slower the better.
I've built much larger Rockets without needing to use Sims, and with more Fins. I just have a feel for it.
 
Interesting, my Estes Patriot has balsa fins, not a fin can. Maybe they changed the design. I've had mine a few years.

Yes, this is a stock Estes Kit. No "Fin Can", other than in the sense that that is a generalized term used to describe that section of the Rocket when it is treated/built or removed in one piece.
 
Anyway, the MMT is put away to dry/cure overnight in the cupboard, since I use JB Weld on CRs now, so not much else to do til' tomorrow.

Yes, I could have just scratch built a whole new Patriot clone, but it is winter, so I would not be able to paint it.
.75oz FG Cloth dries clear, and will keep the pathetic excuse for Decals from peeling off for the tenth time.
The fin area will have to wait til' I can get some red paint, but like I said, this is a "Beater" so looks are not really going to be that important.
This was the first Rocket I ever flew a 808 Camera on, so I'll maybe tape the 808 to it again.

When I do the next 24mm Patriot, I'll use that fancy 3D Fin Can I saw in the other Thread.
https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...atriot-PAC1-drawing&highlight=Patriot+Drawing


This one: https://www.shapeways.com/model/132...0-fin-unit-for-24mm-motors.html?materialId=62
 
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I stacked the pieces to get an Idea how it will look til' painting Season comes around. The fins will get "Tip to Tip" .75oz. Glass Cloth even though that is overbuilding. .75oz Cloth hardly adds anything noticeable weight wise, and I like to get as much practice working with Glass as I can, so from now on all my Rockets get glassed whether or not others think it is the right thing to do. I really don't give a damn what others think, they can build their own Rocket however they like.


Upgrade M-104 006.jpg
 
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I built 2, both with balsa fins. Did one with a std. mmt, one ready for painting I put in a 24mm mmt.
I'll have to check RockSim to see if nose weight is required. Don't think I did any flight sims on the 24mm one.
I'll check it out and Edit this post if extra nose weight is required. It would help if you could give me the engine you planned on using.

The generally accepted Rule of Thumb for adding nose weight if all you are doing is upping the motor from 18mm to 24mm is to subtract the weight of the 18mm Motor from that of a 24mm Motor. The difference is how much nose weight you need, as common sense tells you that this will keep the CG in the same position for a given design.
 
To please those who like to use Sims, I did a quick OR Sim. I don't know how to use it like a pro, and I have an older Version, so I was not able to do one for the F44, but you will see here in these Pics' that it flies fine on D12-3, E20-4 and E30-7.
I used 1.5oz. of nose weight for this Sim.

Upgrade M-104 006.jpg

Upgrade M-104 007.jpg

Upgrade M-104 008.jpg
 
Before Glassing the BT and MMT weigh in at 2.4oz.

Upgrade M-104 009.jpg


Let's see those crappy self-adhesive decals try to peel off now! HAHAHAHA!!!!

Upgrade M-104 010.jpg
 
Glassed with more nose weight and one of those Cesaroni 6 grain 24mm composite motors? Or that 3 grain F240. Crazy I tell you!

I can only immagine! I have to admit that playing with the Sim is fun on this one, and has made me decide to build a few more of these from scratch, a glassed 29mm being next!
I hope to possibly find a Club next year to do an L1 Cert with so that I can play with stuff like the F240.
 
I have to say, this is the funnest build I've done since the last build. I love the way the body looks with the glass covering the decals and paint.
I had to lightly sand the aft section ofcourse and drill tiny holes for Epoxy Rivets, but that part just gets painted Red, so it will look just fine when it's done. Obviously it is Winter here, and painting can't happen anytime soon.
I've got the second fin on there now. I'm doing the Fins with BSI 15 Minute since they are going to get Tip to Tip glass anyway.
Anyhow, I'm really having a lot of fun doing this one, which is what it's all about.:D
It's a nice small build that does'nt make a huge mess of my Bench.

Glassed .75oz Patriot Tube 003.jpg
 
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you know...that the Leviathan uses most of the same parts as the north coast patriot that Estes sold for a few yews (around '95), and it flies well on 29mm motors.
Rex
 
you know...that the Leviathan uses most of the same parts as the north coast patriot that Estes sold for a few yews (around '95), and it flies well on 29mm motors.
Rex

I've heard it makes a great Patriot, and do intend to do one someday. They are certainly cheap enough when they are on sale.
 
Here she is with fins. I'll do the Tip to Tip today, after Coffee, Chores and Breakfast ofcourse.

Patriot Rebuild 24 003.jpg
 
Nice work TR.

I have a Patriot in the queue that I plan to upgrade to a 24mm MMT. I plan to give it some scale treatment, but not sure how much.

Greg
 
Nice work TR.

I have a Patriot in the queue that I plan to upgrade to a 24mm MMT. I plan to give it some scale treatment, but not sure how much.

Greg

Thanks Greg. If you want the ultimate in BT-60 Scale Patriot, check out these 3D Fin Cans by Shapeways. I'm going to get one eventually, but I need to justify the Pricetag. $31 buys a lot of Tubes and Building Material.

https://www.shapeways.com/model/13249...?materialId=62
 
Yeah, I've seen the Shapeways one and it is a beauty, but as you say a bit pricey. It has inspired me to see what I can do on my own.

Greg
 
Hmmmm, started thinking about that build! They are on sale right now too...

Mike

for best results, do not overbuild the fin section or you will have to use a good bit more nose weight. I needed 4 oz. and I used balsa fins(1/8" papered), and 1/16" ply centering rings. :)
Rex
 
With the Fins added, and before doing the Glass on them, the body rests at 2.95oz.

FINGLASSTTT 001.jpg

The glassing was pretty straight forward, and I had watched some videos and read some stuff about "Tip to Tip" here, so the only pain it caused was in my Back from having to lean over the work to get the best angle on it, even with all my lights.
I had to remind myself that it did'nt need to be 100% perfect since it will get a light sanding anyhow before paint. That said, I think it went pretty well for it being my first time doing a Tip to Tip.
I know that this too is another example of "Overbuilding", but as I said earlier, I want as many opportunities to practice with FG work as I can get. All the Videos I could fins and Tips of TTT Glassing were geared toward larger stuff, or doing it to plywood and such. I made it all work to the best of my ability.
I used a couple of disposable paintbrushes to "Tuck" the FG Cloth into the Root edges and apply additional Epoxy as needed.
After it dries for several hours I'll trim away the excess with a new #11 Hobby Knife blade.
I used 1.5oz. Cloth this time for slightly enhanced rigidity. Still very light, and I don't expect to have added more than .15oz. with this step, but we'll measure after sanding to find out exactly.

FINGLASSTTT 004.jpg
 
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I trimmed away some of the excess FG, but will need to wait til' tomorrow to go outside to sand the fins. By then the Epoxy will be fully cured, and it will be light out.
I get a weight before sanding away the excess Epoxy and Fibers of 3.15, so my Guesstimate seems like it will have been correct. Ofcourse I'll weigh it again after sanding to be sure, but if the fin glassing added .15oz., then the total weight gain on this build from adding glass is only .4oz..
Nothing to complain or get all Weight Nazi about, and worth so much in terms of strength.

FINGLASSTTT 005.jpg
 
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I also went and got a can of Krylon Banner Red today, which is the same color I used originally.:)
 
you know...that the Leviathan uses most of the same parts as the north coast patriot that Estes sold for a few yews (around '95), and it flies well on 29mm motors.
Rex

I've heard it makes a great Patriot, and do intend to do one someday. They are certainly cheap enough when they are on sale.

I've got a Leviathan that is already built, painted, and in active rotation in the fleet, and I've got an unbuilt Leviathan kit to replace it when the time comes. I'm planning to paint the second one Patriot-style when I build it. If you are not overly concerned about scale accuracy, you can just paint the stock kit in Patriot livery, and it looks really good. Or you can cut the stock fins square at the bottom for a better look --- I've already had to do that to my working Leviathan to repair damage from landing on concrete. If you cut the fins and tubes for a truly scale shape, I've heard the CP shifts forward enough, it almost always requires nose weight.
 
I've got a Leviathan that is already built, painted, and in active rotation in the fleet, and I've got an unbuilt Leviathan kit to replace it when the time comes. I'm planning to paint the second one Patriot-style when I build it. If you are not overly concerned about scale accuracy, you can just paint the stock kit in Patriot livery, and it looks really good. Or you can cut the stock fins square at the bottom for a better look --- I've already had to do that to my working Leviathan to repair damage from landing on concrete. If you cut the fins and tubes for a truly scale shape, I've heard the CP shifts forward enough, it almost always requires nose weight.



I absolutely LOVE Nose Weight!!! It's one of my favorite parts of doing a build!
If you want a Performance Rocket there are plenty of those 3FNC MD Jobs.
I personally don't burn enough propellant to worry about maximizing things like altitude or speed for any given Motor. An L1 is a long way off for me, as the only Club in my State supposedly does'nt even have a Field to fly at still, and I have yet to be able to scrounge up the Funds for an NAR Membership.
I'de be happy with a semi-scale Patriot that stayed around 800ft. or less on Composite SU G Motors.
 
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