230 MPH rocket torpedo - nuclear or conventional warhead

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Winston

Lorenzo von Matterhorn
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VA-111_Shkval

Excerpt:

"Announced as being deployed in the early 1990s, although previously operational as early as 1977, the Shkval is designed as a countermeasure against torpedoes launched by undetected enemy submarines. It may also be used as a counter to incoming torpedoes whereby it is launched at the enemy submarine, forcing it to evade, and hopefully cutting the guidance wire to the enemy torpedo in the process.

The speed of the VA-111 far exceeds that of any standard torpedo currently fielded by NATO. This speed is a result of supercavitation: the torpedo is, in effect, flying in a gas bubble created by outward deflection of water by its specially shaped nose cone and the expansion of gases from its engine. By keeping water from coming into contact with the surface of the body of the torpedo, drag is significantly reduced, allowing extremely high speeds.

Launched from 533 mm torpedo tubes, the VA-111 exits the tube at 50 knots (93 km/h). Shortly afterwards, its solid-fuel rocket ignites and propels it to speeds of up to 200 knots (370 km/h - 230 MPH). Some reports indicate that speeds of 250+ knots may be achieved, and that work on a 300-knot (560 km/h - 348 MPH) version was underway."


512px-Shkval.jpg


640px-Shkval_head.jpg


640px-Shkval_rear.jpg


torpille_Shkval_2.jpg
 
These torpedoes riding in a vapor bubble have a limited value because they are not quiet and immediately give away the position of the sub that launched it. The main uses of these torpedoes are for last ditch defensive use when another torpedo is homing into the Soviet sub, or for choke point control when deployed from bottom sitting sub with minimal crew. For example a super-cavitating torpedo fired from a bottom sitting 3-man concrete sub 2000' down will impact an overhead surface vessel in ~6 seconds, short enough that no evasive maneuvering is possible.

Bob
 
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https://www.public.navy.mil/subfor/underseawarfaremagazine/Issues/Archives/issue_14/torpedoes.html

Excerpt:

"Since the end of the Cold War, submarine missions have largely moved from deep water to shallow-water littoral areas. (Winston - thus, all of the news you hear of Russian subs in coastal waters) Acoustic reverberation, poor sound propagation, local ship traffic, false targets, and bottom clutter all make torpedo operations more difficult in this noisy operating environment, and the need for more capable guidance and control becomes critical.

The MK48 Mod 6, while a quiet weapon, still alerts a target when it begins active pinging at the "enable" point. To solve this problem, we are developing advanced passive homing techniques, covert active waveforms with LPI (Low Probability of Intercept) and LPR (Low Probability of Recognition) properties, and associated signal processing. To fully exploit these enhancements, however, a further reduction in radiated noise from the propulsion system is required. Under consideration for the stealth torpedo is a quiet electric or hybrid propulsion system employing the Integrated Motor Propulsor (IMP). The IMP incorporates a radial-field electric motor directly into the torpedo propulsor, thereby completely eliminating an internal motor, through-hull shafts and seals, and creating a single connection point to the hull, where advanced isolation can be utilized for increased stealth. This closed-cycle propulsion will be quiet, wakeless, and depth-independent. And, with a rechargeable energy source, it will help reduce exercise expenses to provide more training opportunities and/or lower total ownership cost. Additional quieting will be achieved using active noise-cancellation techniques.

As these new torpedo technologies take shape, they promise some dramatic departures from the configuration of our current weapons. Pushing the speed envelope, for example, will greatly affect torpedo performance and resulting effectiveness - the ability to kill a target before it can react provides a distinct advantage.

Some technical innovations have so significant an impact on our way of doing business that they are often described as "disruptive technologies," with the potential to change the future. One of these disruptive technology concepts in development within undersea warfare is an autonomous high-speed, highly-maneuverable homing torpedo capable of speeds up to five times that of the MK48. Using "supercavitation" techniques, the torpedo becomes an underwater missile, capable of reaching its target before the threat can respond. In this approach, the water near the tip of the projectile - or torpedo - literally vaporizes from the high speed, producing a pocket in which to "fly" the weapon underwater. Traveling in such a vapor pocket provides dramatic reductions in drag, which allows developing extremely high velocity for a given input power. Such a weapon would be well suited for close-range submarine encounters. With multi-purpose configurations, it could be used not only for anti-submarine warfare, but also as an anti-torpedo torpedo, or for defense against high-speed surface craft. (Winston - Gosh, that sounds like a VA-111 Shkval)"
 
Bob,

All torpedoes are noisy and the launch always gives away the sub's position. From the point they are spit out, they make noise. Then when the engine starts and prop turns, way more noise. In addition, the active sonar on the torpedo is noisy and gives away the torpedo's position, and depending on when the torpedo's sonar goes active, this also gives the location of the sub that launched it.

We use to have a torpedo that played a recording of the sub's actual noise signature. The Idea was to confuse the incoming torpedo. They got rid of these on my boat just as I started, in 19993.
 
The USN is working on a Countermeasure Anti-Torpedo (CAT) and a small Anti-Torpedo Torpedo (ATT) for surface ship defense:

https://www.navsea.navy.mil/Media/SAS2014/Torpedo Defense.pdf

https://www.dote.osd.mil/pub/reports/FY2013/pdf/navy/2013sstd.pdf

A little material can be found about the CAT, none about the apparently further-out ATT. The ATT is small (6.25" dia), no mention of speed.

If they're working on a supercavitating high-speed torpedo they praise so highly in the quote I provided above, they ain't taking about it. Might be highly classified.
 
Bob,

All torpedoes are noisy and the launch always gives away the sub's position. From the point they are spit out, they make noise. Then when the engine starts and prop turns, way more noise. In addition, the active sonar on the torpedo is noisy and gives away the torpedo's position, and depending on when the torpedo's sonar goes active, this also gives the location of the sub that launched it.

We use to have a torpedo that played a recording of the sub's actual noise signature. The Idea was to confuse the incoming torpedo. They got rid of these on my boat just as I started, in 19993.
Torpedoes in service today are pretty quiet, and only use active sonar pinging in the end game. Initial guidance is provided from the subs passive detection systems via wire guidance. Most aspects are highly classified but some of the best unclassified info can be found in Tom Clancey's book on Submarines. https://www.amazon.com/dp/0425190013/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

There's also a good amount of unclassified information on supercaviting underwater projectiles of all types on the internet. The drag reduction principal is somewhat related to the aerospike plate deployed on SLBMs to increase the throw range by 60% however the details are different as water is an incompressible fluid whereas air is a compressible fluid.......

Bob
 
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Bob,

All torpedoes are noisy and the launch always gives away the sub's position. From the point they are spit out, they make noise. Then when the engine starts and prop turns, way more noise. In addition, the active sonar on the torpedo is noisy and gives away the torpedo's position, and depending on when the torpedo's sonar goes active, this also gives the location of the sub that launched it.

We use to have a torpedo that played a recording of the sub's actual noise signature. The Idea was to confuse the incoming torpedo. They got rid of these on my boat just as I started, in 19993.

Some are always quick to dislike and discredit all things Soviet/Russian and COMBLOC, as are quite a few others here on the Forum. This is ok thuogh. It is the way it is on any Forum where folks are entitled to voice opinions.
 
I would not discredit all thing Soviet. They have made some very potent fighter aircraft- their avionics might not be quite the equal of ours, but their airframes and engines work well.

Their Navy has some very potent ships and boats. The Kirov class heavy cruisers are some serious firepower.




Mark Koelsch
Sent from my iPhone using Rocketry Forum
 
Some are always quick to dislike and discredit all things Soviet/Russian and COMBLOC, as are quite a few others here on the Forum. This is ok thuogh. It is the way it is on any Forum where folks are entitled to voice opinions.

Just because Communism is wrong, does not and should not preclude the Scientific Contributions from Their People from being recognized.
If anything I find them absolutely Inspirational! The Russians have contributed both willingly AND un-wilingly to the advancement of Science, and they have built some pretty cool and impractical stuff. We ourselves(Americans) some credit too in that department for atleast "Runner-Up" Position.
Project Pluto???
And what was the Idea about using Nuclear Bombs for construction called???
And just like in Footfall, by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle the Soviets do indeed play a lot more in Space.

Space only goes to them who show the most Interest in occupying it.
 
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These torpedoes riding in a vapor bubble have a limited value because they are not quiet and immediately give away the position of the sub that launched it.
I don't see how that can possibly matter when the torpedo is bearing down on you at 200MPH. It doesn't seem like you will have a lot of time to take advantage of the Soviet sub's having revealed itself.

If anything I find them absolutely Inspirational! The Russians have contributed both willingly AND un-wilingly to the advancement of Science, and they have built some pretty cool and impractical stuff.

The Lun-class ekranoplan wins that award:

ekranoplan_02.jpg


Edit: Oops, that's not a Lun-class, it's the Caspian Sea Monster.
 
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I remember reading about this torpedo years ago. It was said to use a binary-hypergolic fuel that had some serious issues.

That Russian submarine the “ Kursk” that suffered an onboard explosion and sank; said explosion was credited to an accident involving a Shkval.
 
I can't imagine a situation where you would want to launch a nuclear tipped torpedo without a serious death wish.
 
I can't imagine a situation where you would want to launch a nuclear tipped torpedo without a serious death wish.

Well, they've been around a long time...

A Russian sub nearly fired one during the Cuban Missile Crisis...

Later! OL JR :)
 
Well, they've been around a long time...

A Russian sub nearly fired one during the Cuban Missile Crisis...

Later! OL JR :)

Oh, I don't doubt that they exist. It's just that in an airplane, you have some hope of being far enough away before the ear-shattering Kaboom. In a submarine? And considering the propagation of a shockwave through water... not so much.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VA-111_Shkval
"...This speed is a result of supercavitation: the torpedo is, in effect, flying in a gas bubble created by outward deflection of water by its specially shaped nose cone and the expansion of gases from its engine. By keeping water from coming into contact with the surface of the body of the torpedo, drag is significantly reduced, allowing extremely high speeds.

If the weapon is traveling through the water surrounded by a gas bubble, then this would effectively make active sonar useless.

Our Burke Class Destroyers use compressor bleed air to surround the hull with bubbles which masks the ship from active torpedoes because sonar can't see through air.

Torpedoes in service today are pretty quiet, and only use active sonar pinging in the end game. Initial guidance is provided from the subs passive detection systems via wire guidance. Most aspects are highly classified but some of the best unclassified info can be found in Tom Clancey's book on Submarines. https://www.amazon.com/dp/0425190013/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Bob

Although active sonar is audible over passive sonar, it's the cavitation of the propeller that initially announced the fact that a weapon has been launched. When a Mk48 ADCAP is released, anyone listening with passive sonar will hear it and the position of it's release is known.

Of course the amount of noise it makes is dependent on depth. As the atmospheres increase, it becomes more difficult to cavitate. Although I believe there is a limit to the depth at which a weapon can be released
https://www.subguru.com/sc_cavitation.gif
 
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One of the possible ASROC payloads was a nuclear torpedo. Keep in mind, a surface vessel, properly prepared, can withstand a nuclear/thermonuclear explosion at distances much closer than land based objects. The famous Eniwetok thermonuclear mushroom cloud has a vertical object in the stem. That was a former Japanese warship. It was still afloat afterwards. If the ship can seal self adequately, sail out of contaminated water and sacrifice enough crew members to conduct a full washdown, it and the rest of the crew will live to fight another day.

I can't imagine a situation where you would want to launch a nuclear tipped torpedo without a serious death wish.
 
Torpedoes in service today are pretty quiet, and only use active sonar pinging in the end game. Initial guidance is provided from the subs passive detection systems via wire guidance. Most aspects are highly classified but some of the best unclassified info can be found in Tom Clancey's book on Submarines. https://www.amazon.com/dp/0425190013/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

There's also a good amount of unclassified information on supercaviting underwater projectiles of all types on the internet. The drag reduction principal is somewhat related to the aerospike plate deployed on SLBMs to increase the throw range by 60% however the details are different as water is an incompressible fluid whereas air is a compressible fluid.......

Bob

Bob,

Though you can configure the sonar to go active right away, standard setup for a MK48 (at least in the 90s when I was in subs) is as you stated, to go active near the end. But the action of launching a torpedo is very noisy (spitting the projectile out of the torpedo tube). This ALWAYS gives away your location, which is why you immediately turn and try to hide after launch.

ASROC's with nuclear tips were pulled from subs before I was in the service ('90s). The procedure, as was told to me by others, was to launch it in one direction, turn, and run like hell in the opposite direction at "Flank Speed, Cavitate".
 
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One of the possible ASROC payloads was a nuclear torpedo. Keep in mind, a surface vessel, properly prepared, can withstand a nuclear/thermonuclear explosion at distances much closer than land based objects. The famous Eniwetok thermonuclear mushroom cloud has a vertical object in the stem. That was a former Japanese warship. It was still afloat afterwards. If the ship can seal self adequately, sail out of contaminated water and sacrifice enough crew members to conduct a full washdown, it and the rest of the crew will live to fight another day.

The ASROCs were designed for direct/near direct hits. The nuclear explosion vaporizes the water under the ship. The ship falls into the hole created and when it lands in the water below, the hull cracks. Conventional torpedoes don't hit the hull itself. They explode under the target. The explosion pushes up on the center of the hull, then the center of the ship falls into the steam void below it and you crack the hull.
 
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