38mm or 54mm?

I was looking at the Cesaroni motor hardware, but I'm not sure what to invest in.

I could invest in 38mm for L1 flying but was also thinking that 54mm also have many L1 stuff, but also L2 stuff as well... so if I just wanted 1 hardware for future L2 cert attempt, would it make more sense to invest in 54mm or do I need both?

Also I'm not seeing much instructions at apogee rocketry but do Cesaroni hardware not have a forward closure?

With CTI, the "forward closure" is part of the reload - there is no hardware forward closure.

And yes, you do "need both".
OK, that's somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but not entirely.

Personally, if I could opt for just one, I'd go with 38mm. You can fly a LOT more 38mm motors than you can 54mm, for cost reasons if nothing else. No need to rush the L2 - when you are ready, AND you have the budget, get the larger case(s) you need then. In the meantime, you will be able to get in a lot more flights with 38mm.

Myself, I'm L2 and purely as a ratio of number of flights, I "rarely" fly 54mm motors. But I fly LOTS of 38mm and even more 29mm. If I only had 54mm to choose from, I really wouldn't fly all that much - couldn't afford to.

Your mileage may of course be very different, but that's how it works in my world.

s6

I agree with stealth 6 at least in terms of starting with 38 mm. Get the starter set, $120 or so. Then add a 6XL case at some point and you can fly all CTI 38 motors. 38 mm 6-grain and 6XL-grain motors are powerful and you can get your L2 using 38 mm. 38 mm is a lot cheaper than 54 mm. I fly both, and they are worth it. I also adapt down my 54 mm rockets and fly 38 mm in them. Here is the CTI link for just about any CTI info. that you need:

https://www.pro38.com

Man too bad I already have a L1, was hoping I could take advantage of that certification special and get a free case...

As for hazmat fee, is it required for all suppliers? I remembered not having to pay hazmat to buy motors. I've seen luthiery suppliers charge hazmat fee for a piece of plastic (celluloid) simply because it was celluloid.

I'd get a 38mm 3 and 6 grain set, and whichever one 54 case fits your goals.

The 38 set is cheap. I'd get it first, and then when you want to go bigger make the call on which 54 will suit your needs.

Take a look at Loki 38mm hardware, almost all G-I reloads can ship USPS with no Hazmat charge.

taiwanluthiers said:

Man too bad I already have a L1, was hoping I could take advantage of that certification special and get a free case...

As for hazmat fee, is it required for all suppliers? I remembered not having to pay hazmat to buy motors. I've seen luthiery suppliers charge hazmat fee for a piece of plastic (celluloid) simply because it was celluloid.

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Every CTI load is hazmat shipping. AT 29mm H/I loads are non-hazmat.

gltruett said:

Take a look at Loki 38mm hardware, almost all G-I reloads can ship USPS with no Hazmat charge.

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I believe he's in Cali.

I looked at Loki system but I'm not sure what I need here... they don't seem to offer complete kits like AT or Cesaroni... means huge expense if I wanted to use different lengths of propellant.

That pretty much cancels out the 29 dollar hazmat saving compared to others. Apogee still charges hazmat for 29mm AT HPR reloads.

Yes I am in CA right now but I do not plan on ordering anything until I move to Texas in a month or so. Lots of reason, cost of living being one of them, and also I need to return to Austin to complete my UT degree.

Apogee isn't the best place to order many things. So order from here: https://www.siriusrocketry.biz/isho...r-rms-reloads-58/29mm-level-1-hpr-reloads-66/

EDIT: just checked apogee. No hazmat if you ship USPS. (all UPS and fedex motor shipments will take a hazmat fee regardless of size)


Loki will be a higher cost. There's no spacer system, and the nozzles are reusable, and sized to each case. No way around that, but it's the direction I'm going. (Loki is also unavailable in California)

Loki does not offer a complete kit as do A/T and CTI, one reason being you reuse Loki nozzles so it is part of the hardware purchase rather than reload. In a future products thread someone suggested Loki develop a spacer system, don't know if that will happen but it is a possibility. Loki reloads are less expensive than CTI for similar impulse, that will save money over the long term. I have hardware from all 3 for convenience but I'm starting to use the Loki more often. Just something to consider, all 3 make a great product.

Honestly, it sounds like your budget is tight.
If that's the case, 54mm motors (as opposed to 38mm) really make no sense. Yes, all motors are pricey in a relative sense, but in my opinion it's in the 54mm range when cost-per-flight really gets eye-opening. There are NO "cheap" 54mm motors to fly.

Stick with 38mm, fly more, and be happy.
s6

I guess there goes the dream of sending a min diameter rocket to space...

Possibly the best advice I could give you now is take your time and keep looking. Aerotech is beginning to have a pretty good selection in the DMS line and appear to be adding more all the time. You can get a J-270 or J-425 DMS for your level 2 for a lower price than most J class reloads. Keep watching the forums and auction sites and hardware will pop up, that's how I got my A/T 38mm set. You'll also find people at launches selling off hardware they no longer use. With your pyro background you may choose to go research requiring different hardware still.

I love 54 mm. It is more expensive than 38. I would go up to 75 mm if my budget will allow it. Working on that. 38 mm is a great place to start, and even when you advance, you will still use it.

I'm getting the impression that pro38 loads are more expensive than AT (but only a few dollars more, doesn't seem to make much of a difference). However AT hardware costs more than Cesaroni. Loki loads seems to be 20% less expensive than AT/Cesaroni but their hardware is too expensive... probably ok if I stick with one family of loads but not if I fly a huge variety of loads.

Honestly Cesaroni doesn't seem like a reload at all, all you do is slide the thing into the aluminum sleeve.

I got my level one and level two motors as cti cert specials and got a 38mm 3g and a 54mm 3g case free. Even though I need more hardware to fill out the sets it was a good deal.

IIRC USPS won't take HazMat shipments the exception being ORM-D (Other Regulated Material-Domestic), all HazMat eligible material have to be shipped through a certified HazMat carrier. I maintain my CDL with HazMat endorsement, and move a lot of it. Also iirc Black powder motors and motors up to certain Gs are excepted as ORM-Ds instead of the more specific Has Mats. 49 CFR 172.101 is the section of the Code of Federal Regulations pertaining to transporting HazMat. ORM-Ds are things like hairspray, bug killers, brake cleaners etc.

Its way more complicated than it needs to be, but there are 38mm motors that ship w/o Hazmat charges, none for 54mm (although some motor dealers, will absorb the fee for large enough orders, or have it priced in).

I'm probably going the route of 54mm MMTs, adapted for 38mm until I can acquire the hardware so I can fly the big Ks.

A couple of things about the cost of CTI compared to Aerotech cases. Once you have the forward and aft closures, AT cases aren't that much more than the CTI comparable. As mentioned before, the AT loads are cheaper so the little bit more you spend on the case is quickly recouped. When it comes to 29mm, I recently made the switch to AT from CTI because of this and they are more fun to build. When it comes to 38mm, Loki is my first choice not due to price of the loads but because of the performance they give you. They simply rip and are well worth the cost of the hardware. I own three of the five cases Scott makes and plan to pick up the others sooner or later. I also have two AT 38mm cases, mostly so I can fly some pretty kick ass effects motors (DM and Metalstorms).

Now 38mm or 54mm? It all depends on your waiver and your pocket and ultimately what you see yourself flying.

Well if I flew I'll likely fly with AARG, last I remember their field is only L1 capable...

If I were limited to a L1 field, I would stay with 29mm and buy a ton of motors!

grouch said:

If I were limited to a L1 field, I would stay with 29mm and buy a ton of motors!

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an aerotech 29/240, an RAS and fly the CRAP out of those motors.

When u get to 38mm CTI 5 grain loads they are roughly $10 cheaper than a 54mm 2 grain. Same goes for any size in CTI when u look at 54mm 5 or 6 grain reloads you could get a 75mm load for same price or cheaper....if budget is the issue, do more research and see what is the best for you. I fly Aerotech, CTI, AMW, Kosdon, Loki, Research....whatever floats ur boat and budget!

You aren't going to beat CTI 38mm hardware for price, a starer set is about $100. Best price I see right now for an AT case 240 size size is $86 if you buy a spacer set at $40 and a 720 case $54 that's still $180 in hardware.

Loki hardware $85 for a 38mm 480 set, and 740 set is $95 which will give you a lvl 1 and 2 for $180. Loki hardware is actually cheaper per case than AT, and that's with a graphite nozzle that I might add is a work of art. Aside from the fact that Loki motors rock, I cant stress this enough that 9 of Loki 38mm reloads are hazmat free, thats more reloads in your flight box.

(Disclaimer: both AT and CTI are fine companies with great products, i'm only pointing out relevant facts to cost, in no way is this a which one is better argument.)

TA

ok, so I guess if I stuck with L1 a Loki set doesn't seem all that bad... It would be nice if I could get a 480 case and use the lower reloads with spacers...

How many times can you use those graphite nozzle?

There are plenty of things you can do with 29mm and then make the jump direct to 54mm via the L2 special when you're ready.

taiwanluthiers said:

I'm getting the impression that pro38 loads are more expensive than AT (but only a few dollars more, doesn't seem to make much of a difference). However AT hardware costs more than Cesaroni. Loki loads seems to be 20% less expensive than AT/Cesaroni but their hardware is too expensive... probably ok if I stick with one family of loads but not if I fly a huge variety of loads.

Honestly Cesaroni doesn't seem like a reload at all, all you do is slide the thing into the aluminum sleeve.

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Make sure you check and see what your favorite vendor carries and if you have an on-field vendor - might want to check and see what he carries. At least that way if you need something in a hurry or on the field you're not @#$@ out of luck. Also - CTI has a bunch of really nice 'J' loads in 38mm I believe starting in the 5 grain case up through the 6XL case. Aerotech also has J's from the 720 case on up as well.

Tom

You are never stuck with a Loki motor, blessed with one maybe but never stuck. As for how many firings per nozzle I don't really know I have yet to wear one out. I have heard about 20 to 30 before any noticeable throat erosion, and if you take good care of them, I don't see them wearing out for many firings. It may not seem like much but 20 firings per case in the HPR world is a lot.


TA

taiwanluthiers said:

ok, so I guess if I stuck with L1 a Loki set doesn't seem all that bad... It would be nice if I could get a 480 case and use the lower reloads with spacers...

How many times can you use those graphite nozzle?

Click to expand...

While there is a lack of spacers with the LOKI motors, having multiple unique cases means you can prep more motors in advance and fly more on a given day.

I don't know... speed isn't exactly a priority for me, especially when it takes me maybe 5 or 10 minutes to load a AT reload... they're really simple to do.