Questiona about AT SU 18mm D10 and D21

My Dad has a few Estes rockets with standard 18mm mounts. A few of them are large and draggy, and he'd like to try a D motor or two in them. I'm thinking about ordering some Single-Use Aerotech D10's for him, and I have a few questions.

First, if he is using a standard Estes launch controller, what igniters should I get for these motors? I've used the Single Use E20 motors before, and my Estes launch controller was not able to light the included FirstFire Jr igniters. Instead, I used Estes PSII igniters. They were a bit of a tight fit, but they worked fine. Will PSII igniters work in a D10 or D21? Basically, will they fit through the nozzle, and all the way into the motor?

My other question is about where to order the motors from. In the past, I've seen recommendations for a specific vendor that had a much better deal than others on these motors, but I can't recall who it was or how much they were, and I can't seem to find that post with the recommendation. I'm thinking it might have been Value Rockets: https://www.valuerockets.com/product_details.aspx?pid=2&itemid=1 They have 3 motor packs for $17.99. Is there anyplace else I should consider? Their price for other single-use motors are not that great, especially for the EconoJets, so I want to be sure I am not overlooking a vendor with a better price.

valuerockets is where I have gotten all the D10's I've flown.

The last D10s I got (a month ago) came with the orange-lead igniter that looks like the Estes Sonic. I don't know what the voltage requirements of these are for sure. If he flies with DART, we use 12V systems that will work with anything.

valuerockets.com is the place to get these.

My personal view on Estes Sonic igniters in these single-use Ds is "no" on the D10s and "maybe" on the D21s. Blue Thunder propellant (as used in the D21s) is much easier to light than White Lightning (used in the D10s). But that's using the igniters on 12V club systems, which fire the Sonics too fast. They might well work on a 6V Estes controller - that is, after all, what they were designed to be used with.

If they're coming with Sonic-igniter-like now units, I'd just use what they came with....

Added: I have actually tried to light both D10s and D21s with Sonic igniters a 12V club system. One, a D21, actually worked. The D10s didn't.

Thanks guys. I'm going to put Dad in contact with DART and Tripoli San Diego. So I guess there is probably a good chance my Dad would be flying these with a club, and maybe the standard included igniters will work fine. I think the included igniter is now a FirstFire Jr. That is what is coming now with EconoJets and E20's. They look a lot like Estes Sonic igniters. I've had people tell me they think they are not FirstFire Jr's, because those were always yellow, and the included igniters are orange. But the instructions are for FF jr, and they don't light on Estes controllers, so I'm pretty sure they are FF jr, and just have orange wires for some reason.

I believe that Aerotech has sold various igniters all under the name of "Firstfire Jr." I think they don't bother to update the documentation if it's a two-lead igniter.

The Estes PSII controller is 9V (6XC cells), FWIW, though the Sonic appears to work with 6V. I've had no trouble with them on 12V either.

The Aerotech 18mm D motors are great little kickers. The one thing I noticed is that even the supplied Copperhead igniters can have a little too much pyrogen. One time, a friend at a launch had trouble getting a Copperhead to work. I "helpfully" gave him a FirstFire Jr. igniter. It lit right away. It was a tight fit though and went bang instead of whoosh. I still have a replacement kit set aside to give him the next time I see him. I wasn't thinking. I've been looking for a good alternative motor lighter for the 18mm motors ever since. I'd like to try the Estes Pro series II igniters.

For AT 18 and 24mm motor replacement igniters, I use Quest Q2G2 igniters dipped in Magnalite pyrogen.

I dip and allow to dry, then I test fit the dried igniters to sort them by size and put them in bags marked "Fit in D" and "Fit in E". Obviously I use the smaller nozzles as my "Go/No Go" gauge (D10, E15/E20).

This is one of those instances where the rules and instructions run afoul of one another.

TRF and NAR rules say you don’t bring one of the AeroTech D10 or D24 motors to the RSO with an igniter installed. Or so I’ve been told at various launches by various RSO’s

Meanwhile the instructions for said motors clearly states to build the motor around the installed igniter.

Actually all of the AeroTech Hobbyline reload instructions tell you to do this; it’s just with the 18MM motors with their tiny little nozzle opening and corresponding narrow slots in the propellant grains assembling the motor with the igniter, whatever kind you are using, already installed becomes more necessary than with the larger 24/29MM motors.

If you are up for reloadables, then valuerockets.com (Aerotech's site) sells the 18mm casing for $32, and a pack of 3 reloads for $10. For $100 (+/-) I bought a casing and one of each of the six thrust/delay combos they sell. These actually come with FirstFire Jrs.



Note: Do not fly these in a light rocket (like a Corona) on a windy day. Just my $60 here. (Wish it had been just $.02!)

boomtube-mk2 said:

This is one of those instances where the rules and instructions run afoul of one another.

TRF and NAR rules say you don’t bring one of the AeroTech D10 or D24 motors to the RSO with an igniter installed. Or so I’ve been told at various launches by various RSO’s

Meanwhile the instructions for said motors clearly states to build the motor around the installed igniter.

Actually all of the AeroTech Hobbyline reload instructions tell you to do this; it’s just with the 18MM motors with their tiny little nozzle opening and corresponding narrow slots in the propellant grains assembling the motor with the igniter, whatever kind you are using, already installed becomes more necessary than with the larger 24/29MM motors.

Click to expand...

Not saying your local RSO's don't have a good reason but the requirement to install igniters at the pad is for high power motors, not D impulse. (or E, F and G even)

boomtube-mk2 said:

This is one of those instances where the rules and instructions run afoul of one another.

TRF and NAR rules say you don’t bring one of the AeroTech D10 or D24 motors to the RSO with an igniter installed. Or so I’ve been told at various launches by various RSO’s

Meanwhile the instructions for said motors clearly states to build the motor around the installed igniter.

Actually all of the AeroTech Hobbyline reload instructions tell you to do this; it’s just with the 18MM motors with their tiny little nozzle opening and corresponding narrow slots in the propellant grains assembling the motor with the igniter, whatever kind you are using, already installed becomes more necessary than with the larger 24/29MM motors.

Click to expand...

NAR allows igniters to be installed in model rocket motors before the RSO check. That means up thru G impulse....

If you have any official NAR reference that shows something different please post it.

Bob

boomtube-mk2 said:

TRF and NAR rules say you don’t bring one of the AeroTech D10 or D24 motors to the RSO with an igniter installed. Or so I’ve been told at various launches by various RSO’s

Click to expand...

Bleed-over of HPR rules to LPR.

astronwolf said:

Bleed-over of HPR rules to LPR.

Click to expand...

Half correct. Bleed-over of TRA HPR rules to LPR because TRA has no LRP rules......