Is Titebond Molding and Trim Glue supposed to be like this?

Hi all,

A read a few posts suggesting to use Titebond Molding and Trim glue for fin fillets. I couldn't find any locally, but I ordered a bottle from Amazon and tried it today on the Baby Bertha I am building.

I had no idea what this glue was like, but I was expecting it to be the consistency of typical wood glue. My bottle most certainly is not! It is more of the consistency of a very thick caulk. It's almost like that sticky tack you'd use to hand something on a wall. I have to use both hands to squeeze strongly and tightly on the bottle to get it to come out.

When it does, it actually is very easy to sculpt into a nice fillet. Except...after drying, this stuff disappeared! I can see a clear glaze where it once was, but there is no...fillet.

Is this glue supposed to be like this or did I perhaps get an old bottle?

I've noticed the same thing as far as its consistency.

I found you have to lay it on rather thick if you actually want a fillet. It does shrink quite a bit (as do most wood glue) when it dries. Just beware that it is a bit difficult to sand afterwards, so don't get carried away with it.

I found it odd that even the local woodworking supply place in Memphis had never heard of the stuff, even though they had just about every other variety of Titebond glue under the sun.

Apparently TM&TG is no longer widely available which explains why you can't find it locally.

All glues have a "best by" date that is cryptically hidden in the code numbers on the container. That doesn't mean the glue suddenly fails to work, it means that it may not work as well as it did when it was fresh. Generally the shelf life is about a year. That being said, I have glue that is five years or older that still works as near as I can tell.

The trick to using this stuff is to apply it thick, dunk your finger into water and pull the fillet. When it dries, it WILL shrink so you may have to do it again, possibly again after that. Just remember to wet your finger before trying to pull the fillet.

Pertaining to experation dates, they are impossable to desifer unless you email the manufacturer.
The thing with wood glues is to keep it stored 70 degrees to 50 degrees F, out of sunlight. I keep mine in a cabinet, buy it by the gallon, transfer to Qt. bottle.
You'll know when it becomes unusable. It gets thick and snotty. Will not penetrate wood poors and fails easily. Thinning with water doesn't bring it back either.
Usually this is typical of a bottle stored on a window sill in sun light (UV's).

Mine feels like slightly thicker Titebond II. It also shrinks, but not quite as much as wood glue. Fillet-wise, after drying, it is probably equivalent to 2-3 layers of TB2.
I haven't found it particularly hard to sand, but it is harder than TB2. I'm not convinced about it, as it tends to produce a rougher fillet than TB2.

o1d_dude said:

The trick to using this stuff is to apply it thick, dunk your finger into water and pull the fillet.

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That's what I need to do! I noticed that when running my finger along it, it would stretch and crack as it was pulled. I can see how a little moisture would mitigate this.

o1d_dude said:

All glues have a "best by" date that is cryptically hidden in the code numbers on the container.

Click to expand...

Well, this determined that my bottle is not old. Using the information on Titebond's site, my bottle was made on August 8, 2014. I am just surprised at how thick this stuff is. I couldn't imagine trying to glue ceiling molding with it .... or at least not in this bottle. I really have to squeeze the bottle as tight as I can to get it to flow out.

Okay, I am having waaay too much fun researching this.

Interestingly Titebond doesn't call the glue Molding and Trim glue, but it's product name is actually No-Run, No-Drip Wood Glue. (I can certainly attest to the no-run part.)

Indeed, the No-Run, No-Drip glue is listed as being nearly nine times as viscous as Titebond Premium II Wood Glue (35,000 cps vs 4,000 cps). (No, I have no idea what a cps is lol).

So I guess it is indeed, thick glue!

MichaelRapp said:

Okay, I am having waaay too much fun researching this.

Interestingly Titebond doesn't call the glue Molding and Trim glue, but it's product name is actually No-Run, No-Drip Wood Glue. (I can certainly attest to the no-run part.)

Indeed, the No-Run, No-Drip glue is listed as being nearly nine times as viscous as Titebond Premium II Wood Glue (35,000 cps vs 4,000 cps). (No, I have no idea what a cps is lol).

So I guess it is indeed, thick glue!

Click to expand...

Sometimes when manufacturers change the name they also change the formulation. I don't know if that's the case here.

As to getting the stuff to come out of the bottle, store the bottle upside down. Whenever you need it, it will at the top of the bottle and ready for action.

As Woody says, store your glue out of the sunlight and in a reasonably temperature controlled environment. My workbench is in the garage facing north and the termperature rarely dips into the 30's. California, doncha know.

MichaelRapp said:

Okay, I am having waaay too much fun researching this.

Interestingly Titebond doesn't call the glue Molding and Trim glue, but it's product name is actually No-Run, No-Drip Wood Glue. (I can certainly attest to the no-run part.)

Indeed, the No-Run, No-Drip glue is listed as being nearly nine times as viscous as Titebond Premium II Wood Glue (35,000 cps vs 4,000 cps). (No, I have no idea what a cps is lol).


So I guess it is indeed, thick glue!

Click to expand...

cps is another abbreviation of cP or Centipoise, which is the thickness/viscosity of a material in relation to distilled water at specified condition. IIRC. Lard is 100,000 cps (per wiki on poise) , so Molding and Trim Glue is about 1/3 that thick, it should be a little tough to squeeze from a bottle.

This is what I use for building my paper/balsa rockets, because it sets/holds nicely and I like the thickness. I gave up using it for fillets because of the shrink factor. But yes, it's super thick- like spreading molasses. Not sure about it's overall durability, but it's way better than the elmers wood glue I was using before.

MichaelRapp said:

Hi all,

A read a few posts suggesting to use Titebond Molding and Trim glue for fin fillets. I couldn't find any locally, but I ordered a bottle from Amazon and tried it today on the Baby Bertha I am building.

I had no idea what this glue was like, but I was expecting it to be the consistency of typical wood glue. My bottle most certainly is not! It is more of the consistency of a very thick caulk. It's almost like that sticky tack you'd use to hand something on a wall. I have to use both hands to squeeze strongly and tightly on the bottle to get it to come out.

When it does, it actually is very easy to sculpt into a nice fillet. Except...after drying, this stuff disappeared! I can see a clear glaze where it once was, but there is no...fillet.

Is this glue supposed to be like this or did I perhaps get an old bottle?

Click to expand...

Nope... that's how it is.

It doesn't shrink appreciably as it dries (unlike white or yellow glue especially which DOES shrink badly!) and usually won't form pits, voids, and bubbles like white or wood glue does, unless you put it on in VERY thick layers... (don't ask me how I know this).

It DOES dry clear.

If the fillet isn't "thick or rounded enough" to your liking, simply make another application and let it dry.

Yes, it's very thick, but that's the purpose... if it was as thin as yellow or white glue, it'd run all over the place and make a mess and shrink and makes pits and bubbles and voids and do all the other bad stuff that white and yellow glue does when you try to use it for fillets.

What's nice about the TMTG (Titebond Moulding and Trim Glue) is that you can do ALL the fin fillets at ONCE, and then set the rocket aside to dry, without worry about it running, sagging, or dripping like regular white or yellow glue. This speeds up the filleting process by at least 2/3, if not 3/4. SO, if you want another layer for a "fatter, thicker" fillet, well, it won't take long to swipe some more over the first ones and set it aside to dry... do them all at once.

Another nice thing about the TMTG, is you can smooth the fillets and shape them to whatever size and shape you want with only a damp fingertip-- cleans up easily with water and a paper towel. Take the time to shape the fillets the way you want them when you apply them-- NO sanding needed afterwards-- what you see when you finish applying them is what you get, but instead of them being a "milky color" as when applied, they'll be clear... but the shape will remain essentially the same.

Later and good luck! OL JR

o1d_dude said:

Sometimes when manufacturers change the name they also change the formulation. I don't know if that's the case here.

As to getting the stuff to come out of the bottle, store the bottle upside down. Whenever you need it, it will at the top of the bottle and ready for action.

As Woody says, store your glue out of the sunlight and in a reasonably temperature controlled environment. My workbench is in the garage facing north and the termperature rarely dips into the 30's. California, doncha know.

Click to expand...

I store all my glue (except CA) this way... it prevents air from getting into the bottles, as well as keeping the glue down near the tip where you need it, ready to apply.

I haven't bought a NEW bottle of TMTG in awhile, since they changed the name to "no run no drip wood glue" or whatever, so maybe they've made it thicker than it used to be.

Personally, I don't like the "blade type" caps/tips on wood glue. I MUCH prefer the "twist open" hole-type tips on white glue and school glue. Because of this, I swap out the blade-type tips on my wood glue for the twist-type orange tips on white or school glue bottles. I either swipe them off old bottles of white or school glue, or just buy some cheap school glue in back-to-school sales when you can get it for about a quarter a bottle, and swap the caps. I then give the cheap school glue to my daughter for her craft projects...

I like the twist applicators much better, but with thicker wood glue, and even thicker TMTG, you REALLY have to squeeze the bottle hard to get the stuff to come out of those smaller tips! They do a much better job of laying the glue exactly where I want it in exactly the right amounts though!

later! OL JR

djs said:

This is what I use for building my paper/balsa rockets, because it sets/holds nicely and I like the thickness. I gave up using it for fillets because of the shrink factor. But yes, it's super thick- like spreading molasses. Not sure about it's overall durability, but it's way better than the elmers wood glue I was using before.

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I don't know where all this talk of huge shrinkage is coming from... I've been using this stuff for at least five years for fillets and some other structural stuff and I've noticed near ZERO shrinkage, ESPECIALLY compared to regular wood glues!

If you've ever used wood glue to install a motor mount in a rocket, you've probably noticed afterward the dreaded 'Coke-bottle' effect-- the wood glue shrinks as it dries and "pulls in" the sides of the tube around the centering ring, causing it to look like the curvy old-style coke bottles... That's why I only use WHITE GLUE to glue the motor mount into a model rocket... it shrinks a LOT less than yellow wood glue and thus doesn't create a big noticeable "coke bottle effect" on the outside of the tube.

I like yellow glue for the centering ring to motor tube joint, since this joint sees more heat soak from the motor casing during flight, and since any shrinkage or distortion in this joint isn't apparent in the finished rocket. Yellow glue is more heat resistant than white glue.

TMTG has been, in my experience, the lowest shrinking glue of anything I've used outside of epoxy. Well, other than Gorilla (urethane) glue, which foams up as it cures.

The ONLY time I've had problems with TMTG not making fillets the way I wanted was when I was filleting the connection between some "strap-on boosters" and the main central core stage on a Dr. Zooch build... can't remember which rocket, maybe SLS or Delta IV Heavy EFT-1, but I applied the TMTG rather thick down between the boosters and it ended up forming some pits and voids that I had to go back and refill the next day to close up. Wood glue and white glue typically does this on EVERY fillet I use it on, unless it's a fillet made so thing that it's almost all wiped off.

That's been my experience, anyway. That's why now I make the fillets thinner and if I want them thicker, just make a second application.

Anyway, I just find it very curious...

Later! OL JR

luke strawwalker said:

Nope... that's how it is.

It doesn't shrink appreciably as it dries (unlike white or yellow glue especially which DOES shrink badly!) and usually won't form pits, voids, and bubbles like white or wood glue does, unless you put it on in VERY thick layers... (don't ask me how I know this).

It DOES dry clear.

If the fillet isn't "thick or rounded enough" to your liking, simply make another application and let it dry.

Yes, it's very thick, but that's the purpose... if it was as thin as yellow or white glue, it'd run all over the place and make a mess and shrink and makes pits and bubbles and voids and do all the other bad stuff that white and yellow glue does when you try to use it for fillets.

What's nice about the TMTG (Titebond Moulding and Trim Glue) is that you can do ALL the fin fillets at ONCE, and then set the rocket aside to dry, without worry about it running, sagging, or dripping like regular white or yellow glue. This speeds up the filleting process by at least 2/3, if not 3/4. SO, if you want another layer for a "fatter, thicker" fillet, well, it won't take long to swipe some more over the first ones and set it aside to dry... do them all at once.

Another nice thing about the TMTG, is you can smooth the fillets and shape them to whatever size and shape you want with only a damp fingertip-- cleans up easily with water and a paper towel. Take the time to shape the fillets the way you want them when you apply them-- NO sanding needed afterwards-- what you see when you finish applying them is what you get, but instead of them being a "milky color" as when applied, they'll be clear... but the shape will remain essentially the same.

Later and good luck! OL JR

Click to expand...

I second Jr's observations here. I was one of the biggest fans of TMT but life changed and so did my rocketry participation right about the time they changed the name.

It is thicker but it was not as thick as you seem to be describing. My fillets did not vanish upon drying either. My first thought was that you got an old bottle since the stuff is not made as TMT anymore but I don't have any explanation about your date code.

I miss rockets!

I think the "shrinkage" comes from the fact that it dries so much more clear than regular wood glues. I don't have pictures (sorry) but I once set two panes of glass at 90 degrees and pulled a TMTG fillet between them. Let it dry 48 hrs, then removed the glass revealing the fillet. There was "some" shrinkage of course, but mostly it was the same shape and almost same size as when wet. However, the glue is hard to see in most applications once dry.

I just did fillets on an Estes EPM-010 and you could hardly see the stuff. But when I sprayed gray primer on top, my fillets showed nicely!

Marc

Marc_G said:

But when I sprayed gray primer on top, my fillets showed nicely!

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I noticed this effect too once I had primed the rocket. I went ahead and applied another layer of TMTG and it looked "right" but after the primer, it looks like a bit much.

One thing, as others have mentioned, that I do like is how smooth the fillets can be. I did not reinforce my launch lug fillet and it is very smooth and it has absolutely no pits or holes like the fillets along my launch lugs on my other two rockets that I did with wood glue. But wow I wish it was easier to apply!

Marc_G said:

I think the "shrinkage" comes from the fact that it dries so much more clear than regular wood glues. I don't have pictures (sorry) but I once set two panes of glass at 90 degrees and pulled a TMTG fillet between them. Let it dry 48 hrs, then removed the glass revealing the fillet. There was "some" shrinkage of course, but mostly it was the same shape and almost same size as when wet. However, the glue is hard to see in most applications once dry.

I just did fillets on an Estes EPM-010 and you could hardly see the stuff. But when I sprayed gray primer on top, my fillets showed nicely!

Marc

Click to expand...

That's what I love about TRF! When I have a question, somebody out there usually has already carried out some sort of experiment already, and is willing to share the results!

Marc_G said:

I think the "shrinkage" comes from the fact that it dries so much more clear than regular wood glues. I don't have pictures (sorry) but I once set two panes of glass at 90 degrees and pulled a TMTG fillet between them. Let it dry 48 hrs, then removed the glass revealing the fillet. There was "some" shrinkage of course, but mostly it was the same shape and almost same size as when wet. However, the glue is hard to see in most applications once dry.

I just did fillets on an Estes EPM-010 and you could hardly see the stuff. But when I sprayed gray primer on top, my fillets showed nicely!

Marc

Click to expand...

Yep... probably a good explanation.

When I did the fillets on the Zooch Explorer I for the Cape Canaveral Air Force Museum Gift Shop, which uses pre-applied fin pattern wraps and stuff... the fillets dry clear and nearly disappear.

On a normal build where you prime/paint over them, they're much more visible.

Later! OL JR

Chris Michielssen has a couple of recent posts on using T M&TG for fillets. I haven't tried it yet myself, but he's a real craftsman.

Part 1

Part 2

Yep, read his blog every day! (And yours, BTW, weekly. )

I've messed around TMTG a bit more and while I see its good effects......wow that is just painful to apply. It fully could be used by personal trainers: "We need to increase your hand strength. Here, squeeze this rubber ball repetitively or apply fillets to this stash of Estes rockets...."

I'm not writing it off completely. I do prefer its look to wood glue fillets. What I want to try next is Fix-It epoxy. Kenneth Ketron uses it on his rockets and it looks easy and seems to look really nice, too.

[video=youtube;TD0s4H9X37Q]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TD0s4H9X37Q[/video]

MichaelRapp said:

Yep, read his blog every day! (And yours, BTW, weekly. )

I've messed around TMTG a bit more and while I see its good effects......wow that is just painful to apply. It fully could be used by personal trainers: "We need to increase your hand strength. Here, squeeze this rubber ball repetitively or apply fillets to this stash of Estes rockets...."

I'm not writing it off completely. I do prefer its look to wood glue fillets. What I want to try next is Fix-It epoxy. Kenneth Ketron uses it on his rockets and it looks easy and seems to look really nice, too.

[video=youtube;TD0s4H9X37Q]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TD0s4H9X37Q[/video]

Click to expand...

I haven't tried Fix-It yet. Some people love it; some hate it. But it looks like the folks who do love it come out with some nice-looking fillets.

I may give it a shot, but I want to try regular epoxy on my next couple of rockets (Estes PSII's). I just have to decide what brand I'm going with. I've read a lot of info about epoxy and watched the John Coker video on epoxy basics, but I have to make up my mind.

Edit: BTW, I'm surprised when anyone reads my blog - I tend to get long-winded! But, thank you!

I have the same round bottle from Amazon and mine behaves just like yours. I just do 3 coats of it and then it comes out nicely. You can see the bottle in the background of this photo.

May I ask if Elmer's (Yellow) Carpentry Glue is approximately the same as Titebond II.... or No Run, No Drip? I'm considering making a MEGA Mosquito and using Elmer's Yellow glue to sandwich the fins (again) but try Titebond as the fillets. Or should I try that the other way around?

I have not used Titebond but from experience I can say that Elmers yellow carpenters wood glue does run if you do not let it dry flat and it does shrink significantly during drying - so yes I would use it to sandwich the fins but not for the fillets.

Kirk G said:

May I ask if Elmer's (Yellow) Carpentry Glue is approximately the same as Titebond II.... or No Run, No Drip? I'm considering making a MEGA Mosquito and using Elmer's Yellow glue to sandwich the fins (again) but try Titebond as the fillets. Or should I try that the other way around?

Click to expand...

Elmer's Yellow Carpenter's Wood Glue is very similar to the Titebond II. I prefer Titebond II but basically they are interchangeable, and do the same jobs.

Titebond Moulding and Trim Wood Glue (TMTG) is a THICKENED version of white or wood glue with a GRAY color. This thickened version is particularly useful for doing fin fillets, but Titebond II or Elmers CWG is a better choice for attaching fins to the rocket, laminating wood layers (other than papering fins, which WHITE GLUE (not "school glue") is actually a better choice for), or other wood to wood joints. The double-glue joint method will give you a fin joint that is stronger than either the paper tube or the balsa itself... IOW, the tube will rip or the fin will break before the fin "pops loose" from the tube using yellow wood glue (Titebond or Elmers) in a double-glue joint.

Later! OL JR

Titebond II and Elmers Carpenters Wood Glues are both Aliphatic Resin glues each has some "special ingredient" that supposedly makes one better than the other, the differences in the absence of testing information are fairly minute. I prefer Titebond II over Elmers because it seems to age better, and I like the consistency better (though both can be thinned with distilled water up to 5% iirc). My other hobby is woodworking so I buy my glue by the gallon, Elmers is cheaper but, I am willing to pay a little extra for the TB II probably because its a "known quantity" for me.

as for TMTG we all pretty much use it for fin fillets and the like, Strawwalker basically gave a good run down of the better glues and their uses.