Radar, anyone?

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You could probably do radar with the 5.8 GHz ISM band... it would be an interesting project.
 
Ummm...would that be for tracking or guidance? A radar guided/slewed gimbal mounted video camera would be cool for videoing launches/flights
 
I'm curious... what rocketry application, other than surface-to-air missiles, would RADAR lend itself to? It's only really useful for tracking moving objects using Doppler shift.
 
Jesse said:
I'm curious... what rocketry application, other than surface-to-air missiles, would RADAR lend itself to? It's only really useful for tracking moving objects using Doppler shift.
Click to expand...

See the posting directly above yours...
 
For accurate performance data. Both altitude and velocity would be measured.

This wouldn't be able to do tracking though, since it is only one dimensional. It wouldn't be out of the question to rig it like a Sidewinder heat seeker but then it would respond pretty slowly.
 
accpool said:
Have you noticed the Black SUV behind you today.
Click to expand...

For that matter you could rig an infrared sensor like a Sidewinder...

Anyway I would definitely like radar for data collection. Live data on every rocket without needing telemetry would be really cool.
 
If I ever win the Lottery, one of the things I've always dreamed of having in my Dream Lottery Compound is a Radar Station for tracking everything around me that flies. I would have a Screen and Data Display next to my huge TV so that if something was happening up in the Sky I would be able to notice and go outside and see what there was.
We have a lot of small Planes and Ultralites flying around my Town, and this summer I even heard and then spotted a Glider.
I've always loved seeing things fly, but I must miss an aweful lot because I'm just not outside when it happens.
Anyway, just thought I'de mention that I've always wanted Radar.
 
TopRamen said:
I've always dreamed of having in my Dream Lottery Compound is a Radar Station for tracking everything around me that flies.
Click to expand...

I use to work for the FAA doing air traffic control. One of the facilities I worked in was a tower at an int'l airport. It was neat to be able to look waaaay up and see some contrails of aircraft flying at like 35,000ft and being able to pull-up their squawk code from the radar. From there we could do a search in the NAS database to see who it was and why type of aircraft. One day we noticed a couple aircraft flying in close formation, so we looked 'em up and saw it was two B-2 stealth bombers directly overhead. A quick look through the binoculars confirmed. Oh what fun. :)
 
Jesse said:
I use to work for the FAA doing air traffic control. One of the facilities I worked in was a tower at an int'l airport. It was neat to be able to look waaaay up and see some contrails of aircraft flying at like 35,000ft and being able to pull-up their squawk code from the radar. From there we could do a search in the NAS database to see who it was and why type of aircraft. One day we noticed a couple aircraft flying in close formation, so we looked 'em up and saw it was two B-2 stealth bombers directly overhead. A quick look through the binoculars confirmed. Oh what fun. :)
Click to expand...

Man! That's awesome!
We get a lot of Military Air Traffic around here too, and that's one of the things I like to watch for.
 
CarVac said:
For accurate performance data. Both altitude and velocity would be measured.

This wouldn't be able to do tracking though, since it is only one dimensional. It wouldn't be out of the question to rig it like a Sidewinder heat seeker but then it would respond pretty slowly.
Click to expand...

Heat seekers don't use radar... they use infrared sensors to 'lock on' to a heat source and steer themselves towards it...

"Beam riders" might be doable...

Might be useful for telemetry or guidance... The earliest Atlas and Titan ICBMs were beam-rider guidance systems, but nowdays with micro-miniature electronics, full-on-board guidance is possible, so a beam-rider is completely antiquated... unless you're physically trying to steer the rocket to a given trajectory in flight (which comes awfully close to "guiding it towards a target in flight"... uncomfortably so...) I guess you could just "guide the flight" upwind or whatever to attempt to guarantee a landing near the pad, but this sort of guidance could be abused VERY easily...

Later! OL JR :)
 
TopRamen said:
If I ever win the Lottery, one of the things I've always dreamed of having in my Dream Lottery Compound is a Radar Station for tracking everything around me that flies. I would have a Screen and Data Display next to my huge TV so that if something was happening up in the Sky I would be able to notice and go outside and see what there was.
We have a lot of small Planes and Ultralites flying around my Town, and this summer I even heard and then spotted a Glider.
I've always loved seeing things fly, but I must miss an aweful lot because I'm just not outside when it happens.
Anyway, just thought I'de mention that I've always wanted Radar.
Click to expand...

Why go outside when you could have a telephoto camera system to lock onto whatever it is you want to look at??

You said "if you won the lottery..." IMHO go whole-hog... :) LOL:)

Later! OL JR :)
 
luke strawwalker said:
Heat seekers don't use radar... they use infrared sensors to 'lock on' to a heat source and steer themselves towards it...

"Beam riders" might be doable...

Might be useful for telemetry or guidance... The earliest Atlas and Titan ICBMs were beam-rider guidance systems, but nowdays with micro-miniature electronics, full-on-board guidance is possible, so a beam-rider is completely antiquated... unless you're physically trying to steer the rocket to a given trajectory in flight (which comes awfully close to "guiding it towards a target in flight"... uncomfortably so...) I guess you could just "guide the flight" upwind or whatever to attempt to guarantee a landing near the pad, but this sort of guidance could be abused VERY easily...

Later! OL JR :)
Click to expand...

I meant for tracking the rocket flight with a camera mounted on a gimbal.
 
For RADAR to be effective, the reflected signal from the object has to have sufficient power back at the receiver (same as transmitter location for most RADAR) to be detected. Our rockets are typically small and have limited metallic content, and are neither configured nor oriented for a good return. One is also talking about potentially having some distance from the RADAR. That indicates the RADAR would have to have high power output and a decent sized antenna to receive the reflection. That in turn mandates safety distances from the RADAR installation when it is operational. It likely also mandates shielded electronics in the rockets, so nothing bad happens when it is closer to the RADAR.

Gerald
 
TopRamen said:
Excellent Idea!!!
Click to expand...

LOL:)

(random movie quote-- guess which for extra points...)

"Why bother to come out at all?? Surely you could have someone invent a gadget so you could just sit in the clubhouse and push buttons all day..."

"You know that's funny-- I have a friend working on that too!"

Hehehe... Later! OL JR :)
 
CarVac said:
I meant for tracking the rocket flight with a camera mounted on a gimbal.
Click to expand...

If you want to track your rocket for any reason this gimbaled tracking system should work just fine provide you use a long baseline 500' or so to keep the angular rate below 45 degrees per second. It is designed to track long range drones by pointing 2 antennas towards the drone via a 2 way gps radio link but you can also mount a camera on it as well.

6 channel unit https://www.fpvhobby.com/116-an.html
or https://www.myflydream.com/index.ph...s_id=3&zenid=e4549c1d342ac33fe0d96388aac4836f
or 12 channel unit https://www.myflydream.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=1

If you want a real-time velocity measurement, you could use a crystal controlled CW transmitter in the rocket and beat it against a fixed frequency oscillator on the ground. The Doppler frequency shift is proportional to the velocity.


Bob
 
bobkrech said:
If you want a real-time velocity measurement, you could use a crystal controlled CW transmitter in the rocket and beat it against a fixed frequency oscillator on the ground. The Doppler frequency shift is proportional to the velocity.
Click to expand...

How do you separate the acceleration sensitivity of the crystal from the Doppler?
 
UhClem said:
How do you separate the acceleration sensitivity of the crystal from the Doppler?
Click to expand...
Excellent question Dave and you probably know the answer.

I purposely did not mention it because it is non-trivial to do it correctly however you have to use at least 2 crystals vertically mounted 180 degrees opposed for the oscillator to offset the acceleration offsets. The best systems use 6 mutually orthogonal crystals mounted in an over but I think that would be overkill in this application.

Bob
 
bobkrech said:
Excellent question Dave and you probably know the answer.

I purposely did not mention it because it is non-trivial to do it correctly however you have to use at least 2 crystals vertically mounted 180 degrees opposed for the oscillator to offset the acceleration offsets. The best systems use 6 mutually orthogonal crystals mounted in an over but I think that would be overkill in this application.

Bob
Click to expand...


Uhhh...nvm this just got to technical for me
 
Assuming you could afford to just set up a Radar Station on your own Property, is it legal or do you need special Licensing to operate the Equipment???
I assume that even though it is harmless, that because it would be classified as fun, the Government would want to get some kind of Fee or Tax.
 
TopRamen said:
Assuming you could afford to just set up a Radar Station on your own Property, is it legal or do you need special Licensing to operate the Equipment???
I assume that even though it is harmless, that because it would be classified as fun, the Government would want to get some kind of Fee or Tax.
Click to expand...

A high powered microwave transmitter is not harmless and yes a license is required.
 
W7AMI said:
A high powered microwave transmitter is not harmless and yes a license is required.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I know about the dangers of Microwaves, as we used to work around them in the Army.
I tried to make a MASER out of a Microwave oven once.
I figured the Govt. would take their cut one way or another.
I wonder if it is very expensive.
 
Last edited:
bobkrech said:
If you want a real-time velocity measurement, you could use a crystal controlled CW transmitter in the rocket and beat it against a fixed frequency oscillator on the ground. The Doppler frequency shift is proportional to the velocity.


Bob
Click to expand...

There was a good article in the March/April 2010 QEX magazine about doing this. You will have to be an ARRL member to have access to the article.
 
Last edited:
I have a copy of the article so I know that's one way it can be done.... In practice it might be easier to have the transmitter on the ground and have the receiver in the rocket and telemeter the digitized data back down to the ground. You could get more power and an order of magnitude more range using this inverse method.

Bob
 
Back around 2000-ish Steve Bragg built a tracking radar for HPR use.

sb15_interog.jpg

--MCS

.
 
TopRamen said:
If I ever win the Lottery, one of the things I've always dreamed of having in my Dream Lottery Compound is a Radar Station for tracking everything around me that flies. I would have a Screen and Data Display next to my huge TV so that if something was happening up in the Sky I would be able to notice and go outside and see what there was.
We have a lot of small Planes and Ultralites flying around my Town, and this summer I even heard and then spotted a Glider.
I've always loved seeing things fly, but I must miss an aweful lot because I'm just not outside when it happens.
Anyway, just thought I'de mention that I've always wanted Radar.
Click to expand...

Just put some chickens out in the yard and listen. They will let you know when any natural or man made predator flies over.
 

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