Dr. Zooch Return To Flight Space Shuttle build thread- #2

[Mushtang]

Here's an opportunity for you to point and laugh and tell me a better way to do something.

No really, in this case I'm actually asking how YOU do this, because I'm positive I'm not doing this the way it should be done.

The parachute lines from the kit were used to wrap around the SSME bells (next post) so I used some kevlar string I'd bought online to tie the parachute (previous post). The kit also comes with a fishing swivel to attach the parachute to the rocket. I like the idea of a clip that can be utilized to easily replace the parachute... but how is it supposed to be attached??? The non-clip side of the swivel is a circle that is way too small for either the parachute lines or the shock cord to fit into. Even if I'd used the kit's original string for the chute, I don't think more than one would fit in the circle. But I would expect that the swivel should stay with the rocket and the clip is to be used for the chute lines, but the intended attachment isn't detailed in the instructions and I couldn't figure it out on my own. Someone that knows, please share.

So here's what I did instead. I tied the chute lines in a knot to form a loop that I could attach the swivel clip to.



Then I decided not to attach this directly to the eyelet in the nose cone, but to the shock cord. I read somewhere that this is better but I don't remember why, but I've done it on the last few rockets I've built. To give me somewhere on the shock cord to attach the clip I tied the cord in a good knot around a small dowel.



After sliding out the dowel, I clipped the swivel to the new loop in the shock cord.



If the parachute needs to be replaced it'll be easy to unclip the chute lines and put on a new one.

Now someone tell me how I SHOULD have done it. Thanks.

[Mushtang]

As mentioned before, I've used the parachute string that came with the kit to make hatbands on the SSME bells, because that was what was provided for that purpose in the Saturn V kit. With the Saturn V kit the instructions specified exactly how long the string should be to make the correct number of wraps. For this kit I *could* have taken the time to make some measurements of the SSME bell diameter, the angle of the cone, and calculate the length of a spiral spaced 1/16" as it wrapped around. But that would be the hard way.

Instead I glued one end of the entire string to the bell, let that dry, wrapped it, and when I got to the end of what I wanted wrapped I cut the string. This was repeated for the other 2 bells.

Here's the end of the entire string drying on bell number 1. It was approx 62" long I think.



Once it was cut (and the glue was holding the string in place) I glued the end to the second bell.



Eventually all 3 bells were wrapped.



I also could have measured the exact length of the string to start with, and then again after wrapping the first one. That would have told me how long to cut the next two... but I didn't. It was still just as easy to do it one at a time like this.

They'll eventually get painted black and stored for future attachment, after the Shuttle has flown several times and the elevator trim screw glued in place.

[luke strawwalker]

Here's an opportunity for you to point and laugh and tell me a better way to do something.

No really, in this case I'm actually asking how YOU do this, because I'm positive I'm not doing this the way it should be done.

The parachute lines from the kit were used to wrap around the SSME bells (next post) so I used some kevlar string I'd bought online to tie the parachute (previous post). The kit also comes with a fishing swivel to attach the parachute to the rocket. I like the idea of a clip that can be utilized to easily replace the parachute... but how is it supposed to be attached??? The non-clip side of the swivel is a circle that is way too small for either the parachute lines or the shock cord to fit into. Even if I'd used the kit's original string for the chute, I don't think more than one would fit in the circle. But I would expect that the swivel should stay with the rocket and the clip is to be used for the chute lines, but the intended attachment isn't detailed in the instructions and I couldn't figure it out on my own. Someone that knows, please share.

So here's what I did instead. I tied the chute lines in a knot to form a loop that I could attach the swivel clip to.



Then I decided not to attach this directly to the eyelet in the nose cone, but to the shock cord. I read somewhere that this is better but I don't remember why, but I've done it on the last few rockets I've built. To give me somewhere on the shock cord to attach the clip I tied the cord in a good knot around a small dowel.



After sliding out the dowel, I clipped the swivel to the new loop in the shock cord.



If the parachute needs to be replaced it'll be easy to unclip the chute lines and put on a new one.

Now someone tell me how I SHOULD have done it. Thanks.

Here's what you do... tie your shroud lines onto the chute as normal. You want to tie them to the chute so that you use two adjoining holes for the first line, then the two holes next to them on opposite sides of the chute, and then the third string to the two remaining adjacent holes... this way the strings are PARALLEL instead of in a triangular arrangement, and therefore won't tangle with each other. Once you have the strings tied, put each of the three loops over your finger and "level up" the parachute, by pulling the chute taut from the center (form it into a point) and then ensuring that all the lines/tape dots are exactly the same level, with none higher or lower than the others. A little gentle tugging will even them up, assuming you tied the strings with all the same size loops and knots and didn't have any really long string "tails" sticking out of the knots...

Anyway, to attach the swivel, once the chute strings are "level", pinch them in your fingers, and slip them off your finger, but keep the small loop that was around your finger, gently sliding the strings down evenly by pinching them with the fingers on your other hand and sliding your other fingers up the strings toward the loop. Eventually you'll have to slide your fingers all the way down to the loop, and basically 'pinch' it flat to a point, so the string loops will pass THROUGH the small "ring" end of the swivel. Keeping the strings pinched tight further back behind the pinched loop, slide the swivel ring over the string loop and down the strings a ways, then gently open the loop with your other hand.... then FEED THE SWIVEL THROUGH THE LOOPS IN THE STRINGS. Once the swivel is through the loop, slide it up toward the loop, snugging it up. The strings will tend to form a snug loop around the swivel ring on the top side of the loop closest to the barrel of the swivel. Using your fingernail, gently slide the strings down over the fatter part of the ring until they're around the BOTTOM of the ring and snug against the rest of the strings coming through the ring up to the chute. Pull the knot taut. All this time, you should have kept the strings tightly pinched between your other fingers closer to the chute, to keep the lines "even" and the chute "level". The strings usually want to slip or squirm and let the chute get "out of level" since this "loop knot" isn't very tight, so I usually rub a SINGLE DROP of WHITE glue into the strings where they loop through the swivel ring to set the knot and make it "permanent". Don't rub the glue up the strings toward the chute of course, just on the ring and strings themselves where they loop through the ring...

Here's a quickie diagram to help explain...


Later! OL JR

PS. The good Doc uses the "El Cheapo" brass swivels, which are NON-LOCKING... personally I prefer the LOCKING (black) swivels available in the fishing dept. at Walmart... they're cheap and they have a small tab that LOCKS the swivel loop so it cannot "spring open" in a hard deploy. Plus, they're a little bigger (Doc uses the very smallest ones you can get AFAIK) so they're easier to use and install. I buy a pack of those for a couple bucks and toss the brass ones in a spare parts box... Not faulting the Doc for using the cheapy brass ones; for lightweight models they're okay, and I'm sure it keeps the kit price down, but I like just a *wee* bit more insurance in the case of a hard deploy... and locking swivels give me that... For LPR brass is probably ok, but for MPR I'd recommend ONLY using black locking type swivels... the loads in a hard deploy are MUCH greater!

[luke strawwalker]

As mentioned before, I've used the parachute string that came with the kit to make hatbands on the SSME bells, because that was what was provided for that purpose in the Saturn V kit. With the Saturn V kit the instructions specified exactly how long the string should be to make the correct number of wraps. For this kit I *could* have taken the time to make some measurements of the SSME bell diameter, the angle of the cone, and calculate the length of a spiral spaced 1/16" as it wrapped around. But that would be the hard way.

Instead I glued one end of the entire string to the bell, let that dry, wrapped it, and when I got to the end of what I wanted wrapped I cut the string. This was repeated for the other 2 bells.

Here's the end of the entire string drying on bell number 1. It was approx 62" long I think.



Once it was cut (and the glue was holding the string in place) I glued the end to the second bell.



Eventually all 3 bells were wrapped.



I also could have measured the exact length of the string to start with, and then again after wrapping the first one. That would have told me how long to cut the next two... but I didn't. It was still just as easy to do it one at a time like this.

They'll eventually get painted black and stored for future attachment, after the Shuttle has flown several times and the elevator trim screw glued in place.

Ordinary sewing thread works great as well. The SSME's use lots of "hatbands" so you're just shooting for the "effect" and not a scale number of rings, obviously.

Here's a quick trick I've learned to make this step of winding string around the nozzles to make "hatbands" go much quicker...

Using the hemostats that I ground the serrated jaws off of (yeah, I know, you don't have them, but I tell ya, pick up a few at the hardware store and grind or file the serrated jaws off them... they're just the handiest thing since sliced bread for this sort of work!!! Once you have them, you'll wonder how you ever got by without them! If you don't have a bench grinder or know someone who does, use a dremel to grind them off, or file them off by hand... ) Take you string and dredge it through some white glue to get the last 1/4 inch of the string nice and gluey... then CAREFULLY align it about 1/16 inch up from the BOTTOM (or top- your choice) edge of the nozzle, make sure that it's parallel to the nozzle exit plane (bottom edge) and then clamp the hemostat on it for a few minutes, and set it aside. I usually align the end of the string with the seam in the paper nozzle where it glues to itself to make a cone-- doing this hides the end of the string and makes the nozzle much prettier, especially if you "clock" all the nozzles with the seams toward the center when you glue them on the rocket, to hide all the seams and string ends... it does require a little extra effort though! Do all three (or five in the case of the Saturn V, four on the SLS, etc) and let them dry about 20-30 minutes while you do something else on the build. When you're ready, release the clamp from the nozzle and string...the string should be securely glued to the nozzle just up from the back edge with the rest of it loose. Stick the nozzle over the end of a Sharpie marker, dowel, or whatever else is round and of the correct size and makes a handy handle that you can roll in your fingers... put a few drops of white glue around the nozzle, and rub it out onto the outer surface of the nozzle smoothly and evenly to coat the outer surface of the nozzle. Grab the other end of the string (loose end) and pull it taut while gently turning the sharpie marker "handle" and just gently and carefully roll the string evenly in a flat spiral up the outer surface of the nozzle... keep the string taut as you go, and hold it steady so the wraps are evenly spaced, and nudge the string into even spacing if needed with the tip of a hobby knife or bamboo skewer... and if you get crooked or the spacing is off, unwrap a little and go again. Once the string is completely wrapped around the nozzle, give it a couple minutes for the glue to 'tack up' then put a fairly big drop of glue on your fingertip, and while the nozzle is still on the sharpie "handle", TURNING THE SAME DIRECTION YOU WOUND THE STRING ONTO THE NOZZLE, rub the drop of glue evenly across the string and surface of the nozzle again... this will "lock" the string into place permanently and make sure that it's all snug and taut, and give a little more strength to the nozzle...

Works like a champ!

Good luck and KUTGW!!! OL JR

[Mushtang]

... close call today as Fred Haise and Gordon Fullerton barely escaped with their lives following a test of the new Orbiter that went of control and crashed, destroying a...

Last night my brother and I had mixed results in our flight tests off the deck. Initially the flights weren't that great, but after some adjustments to the elevator it improved greatly. Even still, about 1 in 3 flights would spiral down, or just tumble.

Then we started not being able to get a good flight at all, either it would stall too much, or nose in, without any adjustments to the elevator at all. The only difference was in the way I was throwing it I guess?

I tried to give it some good initial speed, like it would have after falling 60 feet or so. I was nearly convinced it was probably going to fly okay with a launch but wanted to try a few more flights just to be sure.

The damage was done on one of the nose dives that followed a completely smooth textbook flight. When it hit I saw two small pieces fall off and my brother (on the ground below) said, "We'll, we're done for today". The piece of balsa holding the screw, which I'd attempted to strengthen with CA before installing, broke in half and released the screw. Easily repairable but I was indeed done for the night.



I pulled the rest of the pieces off and will cut a new one and glue it in place and try again.

[NJRick]

Hey Mushtang...I wanted to send you some pics of my Orbiter to show the angle that I have on my stabilizer...I am not sure if this would be helpful at all since each build I would think has major differences in weight , balance etc...but..I was kinda surprised how much angle I had to crank in to get her to fly....thought it was worth the try at least!

[NJRick]

keep up with the flight testing!! its worth it!! because you get to watch this and its really cool!

[Mushtang]

Hey Mushtang...I wanted to send you some pics of my Orbiter to show the angle that I have on my stabilizer

Thanks!! That does help. Mine was a lot lower. But... when I raised it the orbiter would stall with every throw, which was why it was lower.

BTW, will you check and see where your CG is? Mine is right at 9cm from the tip of the nose. I think I remember Dr. Zooch saying somewhere in this thread where the CG should be, I'm going to go try and find it, but I'd like to know where yours is. Thanks!!

Edit: Couldn't find Zooch's CG but found a couple of others. I seem to be okay there. Just have to find a big field and launch it I guess.

[luke strawwalker]

Thanks!! That does help. Mine was a lot lower. But... when I raised it the orbiter would stall with every throw, which was why it was lower.

BTW, will you check and see where your CG is? Mine is right at 9cm from the tip of the nose. I think I remember Dr. Zooch saying somewhere in this thread where the CG should be, I'm going to go try and find it, but I'd like to know where yours is. Thanks!!

Edit: Couldn't find Zooch's CG but found a couple of others. I seem to be okay there. Just have to find a big field and launch it I guess.

Basically you have to do the best setup you reasonably can and then commit it to flight... I know mine was a bit goofy about settling into a glide. The Lifting Body shuttle is even worse... it takes FOREVER to settle into a glide, which is more like a controlled fall... LOL Remember that in flight these things will come off probably in a weird attitude with some rates, virtually in a sort of tumble, and it will take a bit for it to settle into a glide... depending on the air and the attitude and rates, it might take 50 feet or more of altitude to really smooth out and ease into a glide... and it's REALLY hard to simulate that close to the ground... even a throw with the nose up or nose down or ground effect with the air can really screw with the transition into glide...

SO I wouldn't worry about it TOO terribly much... if you've gotten a good glide out of it, you should be good for launch.

Later! OL JR

[Mushtang]

Basically you have to do the best setup you reasonably can and then commit it to flight... I know mine was a bit goofy about settling into a glide. The Lifting Body shuttle is even worse... it takes FOREVER to settle into a glide, which is more like a controlled fall... LOL Remember that in flight these things will come off probably in a weird attitude with some rates, virtually in a sort of tumble, and it will take a bit for it to settle into a glide... depending on the air and the attitude and rates, it might take 50 feet or more of altitude to really smooth out and ease into a glide... and it's REALLY hard to simulate that close to the ground... even a throw with the nose up or nose down or ground effect with the air can really screw with the transition into glide...

SO I wouldn't worry about it TOO terribly much... if you've gotten a good glide out of it, you should be good for launch.

Later! OL JR

Thanks. That's definitely reassuring. I was thinking I'd need consistent good flights off the deck before I knew it was going to work. I guess whenever I find a large field I'll launch it and see what happens.

After I repair and test fly with the new elevator adjustment of course.

[Mushtang]

To repair the piece that broke off I decided not to replace it exactly as it was because I didn't want it breaking again. To make it stronger I decided to paper the balsa before gluing it in place.

I also decided that since the back of the orbiter was black, and the future engine bells would be black, it would look better if I used black paper for this. There was some left over black card stock that was supposed to be used to make stripes around the SRBs, but since I didn't use it for that I had it available for this.



So I glued the balsa to a corner of the paper. and let it dry. Then I cut the paper out and glued the other side to the paper. Once that dried I cut it out again and the piece was a lot stronger.



When I poked a hole in the piece and threaded the screw through it the paper on the edge lifted a little. So I decided to add a line of CA to the entire edge closest to the screw, just in case. I let it dry before installing.



I sanded an angle on the edge that contacts the back of the orbiter and removed a small slice of paper so the balsa could contact the upper balsa piece, and used CA to attach everything. I pulled the elastic into place while it dried to make sure pressure was applied.



It seems like it's a LOT more sturdy now. I'll probably take a black sharpie and color the edges of the new piece when I get around to adding the black to the wings.

[Mushtang]

I was curious about the CG so I decided to measure where the balance point was. I stood my straight edge ruler on the side and held it in place between the ET and a glue bottle, and balanced the orbiter perpendicular. This took a few minutes to get it to balance long enough for a picture.



You can see that the balance point is just at the flag on the side of the payload bay. You can also see my wife opening a Diet Coke behind the rudder.

I positioned the orbiter to where the tip of the nose was on a line on my cutting board, lined up the end of the ruler to the balance point (the flag), and looking down from above I can see how far that point is to the line at the nose.



For what it's worth, 9 cm. or 3 9/16", from the tip. I don't know how significant that is.

[NJRick]

Hi Mushtang.... I rolled my Shuttle out of her hanger....I never knew how to find the cg....I am embarrassed to admit it... so this newbie thought your post above was a great post! Here are two pics of my Shuttle....I think my cg is about 9.8cm from the nose..I am wondering if the SSMEs are the reason? Just posting for comparison sake...not sure if it means anything because of variations in build, glue, paint etc...

[Mushtang]

Dr. Zooch, if you're lurking on this thread, can you answer a few questions for us? How critical is the CG, where should it be, and if it's slightly forward of that spot is that a big problem?

[Mushtang]

The real orbiter has black and gray stripes along the leading edge of the wings where the dark tiles are needed. If I just hand painted them on it would look "less than acceptable" (since this is a family friendly forum) so I thought about masking the wings off. After I sat with the orbiter in hand and thought about what it would take to mask it properly I decided against it.

Instead of that I thought that penciled guidelines would help me and my Sharpie do a good job. It wouldn't be perfect, but it would be good enough. To get the curves right I started with the wing template provided with the kit. I cut another template out of spare card stock and then cut out a section of the leading edge.



If I wanted the black section "perfect" I'd have to alter the outer and inner curves slightly. But I was going for "close enough" and just used the exact same edge moved back about 1/4". Here is the template on the wing, ready for me to draw a pencil line along the front.



I actually drew 2 lines so that I could put a stripe of gray on the front edge, with black above it.

Here's part of the black stripe drawn in on one wing.



After the wing edges were drawn with black, and some areas left white to fill in with gray as soon as I pick up a gray Sharpie, I also added black stripes to the back of the wings and on the elevator. Yesterday I used the black sharpie to color the balsa edge of the rudder that wasn't covered with paper.



I actually picked up a gray Sharpie at the office supply store on the way to work this morning and will finish the wings when I get home. I'm still hoping someone will pull through for me and send the new wraps so I can use the NASA logo and flag to put on the tops of the wings.

[Mushtang]

Here's what you do...

Here's a quickie diagram to help explain...

That made more sense than the way I'd done it for sure. So last night I pulled the strings out of the swivel clip and put them on the correct way.



I still used the loop in the shock cord to attach the swivel to, but now the swivel can actually allow the parachute to spin without twisting the shock cord.

Thanks Luke!!!

[Mushtang]

The SSME bells needed to be painted. They're so light that they'd blow away if I sat them down and sprayed them so I had to hold them in place. I used a method that I saw Hcmbanjo use in his blog. One piece of tape was laid down sticky side up, then two other pieces were placed on the ends to hold it down. The engine bells were stuck to the sticky up tape and that's enough to keep them from blowing away.



So then I sprayed them with black paint.



When that dried I turned them over and sprayed the inside of the bells black. The tape covered by the large end of the bell didn't get painted, so it was still usable to hold the small end of the bell.



When they dry they'll be ready to attach. I'm going to wait until I get a few successful launches before gluing them on.

[luke strawwalker]

The real orbiter has black and gray stripes along the leading edge of the wings where the dark tiles are needed. If I just hand painted them on it would look "less than acceptable" (since this is a family friendly forum) so I thought about masking the wings off. After I sat with the orbiter in hand and thought about what it would take to mask it properly I decided against it.

Instead of that I thought that penciled guidelines would help me and my Sharpie do a good job. It wouldn't be perfect, but it would be good enough. To get the curves right I started with the wing template provided with the kit. I cut another template out of spare card stock and then cut out a section of the leading edge.



If I wanted the black section "perfect" I'd have to alter the outer and inner curves slightly. But I was going for "close enough" and just used the exact same edge moved back about 1/4". Here is the template on the wing, ready for me to draw a pencil line along the front.



I actually drew 2 lines so that I could put a stripe of gray on the front edge, with black above it.

Here's part of the black stripe drawn in on one wing.



After the wing edges were drawn with black, and some areas left white to fill in with gray as soon as I pick up a gray Sharpie, I also added black stripes to the back of the wings and on the elevator. Yesterday I used the black sharpie to color the balsa edge of the rudder that wasn't covered with paper.



I actually picked up a gray Sharpie at the office supply store on the way to work this morning and will finish the wings when I get home. I'm still hoping someone will pull through for me and send the new wraps so I can use the NASA logo and flag to put on the tops of the wings.

If they don't turn up, here's a work around you can do. Go find pics of the shuttle orbiter you're modeling... Use Yahoo Images or whatever your favorite search engine is... Grab some good hi-def stills that show the flag or meatball, or barring that, go to the NASA site or do an image search for the relevant images such as the meatball and flag. Once you have the images of the shuttle, you can fairly accurately "scale" the size of the meatball and flag and then, using your MS "Paint" program (which is usually on most PC's, or you can get shareware versions of lots of different drawing programs, or if you want more flexibility (with a bigger learning curve, though) get a vector graphics drafting type program, but Paint will do what you want-- I did the entire "Moonraker 5" using just MS Paint retooling one of the Zooch shuttle wraps designs). Fiddle with your printer to print them out at the correct scale (using "scaling" in your printer driver) by making a few test prints and comparing them to the size of the meatball or images you figured out from the pics you got online (you can measure the meatball or whatever in the pics, and knowing one other measurement in the same plane, say the wing width of the shuttle, or the size of a stripe or something near it, or whatever, you can then compare the measurement of the object in the picture with it's true measurement and divide it out to get a "Scaling factor" and then measure the size of the object you want in the picture that you DON"T know the size of, and multiply it by the scaling factor to get fairly close to the actual measurement of the item... the main thing to remember with this method is that things need to be in the SAME PLANE (distance from the camera) and as close to 90 degrees from the camera's film or sensor plane as possible to minimize distortion and perspective induced inaccuracy, and of course the narrower the field of view of the lens, the more accurate the measurements will be-- IOW don't do it with a picture taken with a fisheye lens. Once you have the measurement of the "real thing" then you can divide that by the scale of the rocket kit (ant-scale won't help you here, but here's a hint-- the real External Tank of the shuttle is 331 inches in diameter (8.4 meters) and the kit uses a 1.637 inch diameter BT-60 for this part, so dividing it out will get you 1/202 scale, approximately. So, say the meatball on the shuttle wing is 48 inches in diameter, that would work out to 0.237 inches in diameter (48 divided by 202) or about a quarter inch in diameter (0.25 inches). Make sense?? Basically this is the same basic math you'd do to measure things out in the photo as well...

Do a couple test prints and tweak the scaling until you get the printout the right size... say it prints out 2 inches in diameter... we want it at .25 inches in diameter, or 1/8 that size, so we'd reduce the scaling to 12.5% in the computer printer driver selection box, and print it again. It might take a couple tries to get zeroed in on the scale you want. Print them out, cut the image out with a hobby knife, and glue the image to the shuttle wing, or you can get fancy and print it out on decal paper, spray it a couple times to seal it per the instructions, and glue it on (I've done paper decals like this and they're okay... not quite as nice as the decal film ones, but definitely quicker, easier, and cheaper... in fact I did the homemade decals on my Kriegsmarine V-2 (in the Estes V-2 galleries) using this exact same method, only I drew the image by hand and scanned it into the computer manually rather than using a preexisting image and scaling it.)

Of course if you want the utmost accuracy, you COULD search the internet til you found out the exact measurement of the flag and meatball. Grab the appropriate images off the net and then scale them appropriately as mentioned, print, and then glue them on. Works like a champ. I did the same thing on the AF logo on my Zooch Lifting Body Shuttle kit as well (pics in that build thread).

Later and hope this helps! OL JR

[luke strawwalker]

That made more sense than the way I'd done it for sure. So last night I pulled the strings out of the swivel clip and put them on the correct way.



I still used the loop in the shock cord to attach the swivel to, but now the swivel can actually allow the parachute to spin without twisting the shock cord.

Thanks Luke!!!

You're welcome! Later! OL JR

[luke strawwalker]

The SSME bells needed to be painted. They're so light that they'd blow away if I sat them down and sprayed them so I had to hold them in place. I used a method that I saw Hcmbanjo use in his blog. One piece of tape was laid down sticky side up, then two other pieces were placed on the ends to hold it down. The engine bells were stuck to the sticky up tape and that's enough to keep them from blowing away.



So then I sprayed them with black paint.



When that dried I turned them over and sprayed the inside of the bells black. The tape covered by the large end of the bell didn't get painted, so it was still usable to hold the small end of the bell.



When they dry they'll be ready to attach. I'm going to wait until I get a few successful launches before gluing them on.

Very nice... I prefer gunmetal gray myself... if you've ever seen one close up they're closer to that than gray... I picked up a few bottles of "House of Kolor" stuff on sale for this very reason. Easier to just brush paint them IMHO... and of course the gunmetal looks REALLY cool! But that'll work nicely too... Here's the SSME sitting in the exhibit area of JSC's "Space Center Houston Visitor Center"...



You can fly her sans nozzles but the thing is, after you glue them on, you're going to have to re-trim the glide anyway, which means adjusting the screw and all that again. You might consider just doing it all now and calling it good... course that's ENTIRELY up to you...

Later! OL JR

[Mushtang]

Very nice... I prefer gunmetal gray myself... if you've ever seen one close up they're closer to that than gray...

I was going on the pictures I posted in post number 291 and I remembered the bells as being black. It's probably a lot more gray than black, but as with everything on a model I just want to get it close enough to be recognized. They're really dark and that's good enough. Heh. The number and spacing of the hatbands is also not exactly correct, so I think the black will still look okay.

I'll probably do as you suggested with the logos and just find some online, scale them, and print them so that they're close enough to be recognized for what they are. I was just hoping to get the wraps to avoid accidentally picking the wrong logos or something.

This orbiter will be Atlantis.

[luke strawwalker]

I was going on the pictures I posted in post number 291 and I remembered the bells as being black. It's probably a lot more gray than black, but as with everything on a model I just want to get it close enough to be recognized. They're really dark and that's good enough. Heh. The number and spacing of the hatbands is also not exactly correct, so I think the black will still look okay.

I'll probably do as you suggested with the logos and just find some online, scale them, and print them so that they're close enough to be recognized for what they are. I was just hoping to get the wraps to avoid accidentally picking the wrong logos or something.

This orbiter will be Atlantis.

The logos changed over time... the shuttle started off with the NASA "worm" logo back in the 80's with USA on the other wing, IIRC... then there were some tweaks along the way and they ultimately changed to the NASA meatball (after Administrator Dan Goldin "forbade" the worm logo and put the entire agency back on the "meatball" logo) and they went with the flag on the other wing. I think it looks much better that way... the worm logo was SO disco-70's looking... just fugly...

Do a search on nasa logo changes on the shuttles and I'm sure you'll come up with something detailing the exact look for the shuttle you're modeling (and the time frame you're modeling it in).

I hear you about the color... and you're right... the black is probably close enough... I just got a good deal on the gunmetal "house of Kolor" stuff... but you have to put it on over a bare surface because it's a lacquer and will take the primer right off and any underlying enamel coats... (learned this the hard way on the Zooch Lifting Body Shuttle when it took the enamel right off the nozzle... fortunately all I had to do was wipe it off with a paper towel, let everything dry out a bit, and repaint the nozzle). The only drawback to the gunmetal is it DOES have a slight metal-flake effect that doesn't look quite right on close inspection...

Later and good luck! OL JR

[Mushtang]

Do a search on nasa logo changes on the shuttles and I'm sure you'll come up with something detailing the exact look for the shuttle you're modeling (and the time frame you're modeling it in).

It took forever. The lack of detailed pictures on Google is surprising. But... I started searching for card stock models and found a good site with some free downloads and I now have something to create the wing graphics from.

Score!!

[luke strawwalker]

It took forever. The lack of detailed pictures on Google is surprising. But... I started searching for card stock models and found a good site with some free downloads and I now have something to create the wing graphics from.

Score!!

Congrats! That's great!

I have to say, I haven't been very impressed with Google images... I've had MUCH better luck with Yahoo Images on searches. Of course YMMV...

Later and good luck! OL JR

[Mushtang]

Decal sheets are a little pricey and it's good to fill them up as much graphics as possible and still make it possible to cut them out. Now that I've found access to all the Shuttle images (names, flags, logos, etc.) on the card stock models, I think I'll spend some time and clip and paste them all into a single decal sheet and print them all at once. That way when I make future orbiters I'll have the graphics ready to go.

After that my decision will be, do I buy another kit from Dr. Zooch and support his wonderful efforts at producing these awesome kits, or do I print my own from the card stock I've scanned on this kit?

[Mushtang]

For those doing a similar thing someday, here is the site where I found the paper models with the graphics:
http://www.axmpaperspacescalemodels.com/REFERENCE.html

About halfway down is a chart of all the different modifications of each shuttle, showing in detail how the look of each changed over the years. At the top of the page is the Download link where you'll find the models for each modification. The downloads all appear to be free.

When I finish my collage of orbiter names and graphics I'll definitely post the file here so anyone else can use it if they want.

[NJRick]

Mushtang...do both!! buy some more of the doc's great kits (go for a Saturn 1b!!) and make more Orbiters!

Decal sheets are a little pricey and it's good to fill them up as much graphics as possible and still make it possible to cut them out. Now that I've found access to all the Shuttle images (names, flags, logos, etc.) on the card stock models, I think I'll spend some time and clip and paste them all into a single decal sheet and print them all at once. That way when I make future orbiters I'll have the graphics ready to go.

After that my decision will be, do I buy another kit from Dr. Zooch and support his wonderful efforts at producing these awesome kits, or do I print my own from the card stock I've scanned on this kit?

[luke strawwalker]

That's a great reference, thanks for posting it!!!

I built a duplicate orbiter (Moonraker 5) from the existing patterns and templates... to use on the same "stack" of tank and boosters...

Wouldn't mind having another "Stack" though for additional orbiters, either...

later! OL JR

[Dr.Zooch]

GREAT BUILD thread!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ultra fine work!

[Mushtang]

Sorry to repeat a post, but I'll try not to make it word for word. My brother came over to help me test fly the orbiter - again. We got it to fly a few good flights after getting the elevator set - again. Made the decision that it's probably set as good as we can get it for now, but let's fly it a couple more times to be sure - again.

And I broke it. Again.



The last flight the orbiter went into a spin and landed as it was upside down spinning, at just the right angle for the rudder to knock sideways. The glue peeled away the top layer of paper and was hanging on by one side. I went ahead and pulled it all the way off for the picture and glued it back on.



It seems just as sturdy as before.

No more test flights off the deck!! The next time this orbiter is in free fall it will be on release from the External Tank after being launched with a B6-4!!!