Dr. Zooch Return To Flight Space Shuttle build thread- #2

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Thanks Jeff. I did try that on my first orbiter but I probably just used too little clay. It was about as big as a pencil eraser or less. Now that I've got a field near the house I can fly in (for the next few months at least) I'll bring a hunk of clay one afternoon and launch it over and over and try to slowly build up until it works.

That is, assuming the flame fins don't break again. I'll bring both sets to be sure. Heck, I guess I could bring both complete stacks and a helper and fly one stack while the other one is loaded. Rapid fire shuttles!!

Sounds like a plan...

You COULD add a small "trim tab" of tape or something on the tip of one of the elevons (left is standard practice IIRC to get a left hand turn), just a piece of tape slightly upturned to generate a little more correction on one side than the other... shouldn't take much. It shouldn't interfere much if at all with powered flight, though it might induce a slight spin or spiral to the flight after launch.

Generally speaking though, adding a little weight to one wingtip is how I've always read about it being done...

Course, these little gliders have two things working against them-- 1) they don't have a great glide ratio anyway (glide distance to sink rate ratio) due to their small wing area, small size, cross-sectional area and shape, and weight... and 2) the short wing span makes mass at the wingtip less effective in turning the glider, because the mass has less leverage since it's closer to the glider's CG than it would we way out on a more "standard" glider's wingtip (one with longer wings)... (IOW, weight at the end of a longer wing exerts "more leverage" than the same weight closer in). Adding substantial weight is not really what you want to do with these gliders anyway, as it will rapidly diminish performance... keep the mass as small as possible to do the job...

That's why I suggested a small trim tab of tape... it's low-mass, and it could perhaps be used in conjunction with a bit of wingtip mass to optimize for both...

Later! OL JR :)
 
That's for PITCH adjustment... how high the nose is in relation to the glide path... adjust it too much and the nose will pitch up and induce a stall, too low and they nosedive. His pitch adjustment sounds straight on...

To trim a glider for a circular flight path, add a little pinch of clay to the wingtip on one side... this will cause that wing to dip slightly into a "bank" and thus induce a turning flight path...

Later! OL JR :)

That's right I remember now.
One of those build threads I was referring to was yours I got from the "Way Back Machine" on YORF. :wink:

Ed
 
hey Mushtang....I think with my orbiter when I cut the wings out of the balsa that one wing is just the smallest bit bigger than the other....I think that is why mine circles the booster on the descent....just a guess anyway.

seriously, your Shuttle is just gorgeous.
 
hey Jeff....how about simply putting a small strip of tape on the elevon (or wing)? just tape applied to the surface...not sure if you would even need a raised trim surface... do you think the mass of the tape would be enough to initiate a turn with the Zooch Orbiter? I mean, she is a small glider. mine is weighing in at 11.0 grams. I honestly don't know...kinda just throwing it out there.

Sounds like a plan...

You COULD add a small "trim tab" of tape or something on the tip of one of the elevons (left is standard practice IIRC to get a left hand turn), just a piece of tape slightly upturned to generate a little more correction on one side than the other... shouldn't take much. It shouldn't interfere much if at all with powered flight, though it might induce a slight spin or spiral to the flight after launch.

Generally speaking though, adding a little weight to one wingtip is how I've always read about it being done...

Course, these little gliders have two things working against them-- 1) they don't have a great glide ratio anyway (glide distance to sink rate ratio) due to their small wing area, small size, cross-sectional area and shape, and weight... and 2) the short wing span makes mass at the wingtip less effective in turning the glider, because the mass has less leverage since it's closer to the glider's CG than it would we way out on a more "standard" glider's wingtip (one with longer wings)... (IOW, weight at the end of a longer wing exerts "more leverage" than the same weight closer in). Adding substantial weight is not really what you want to do with these gliders anyway, as it will rapidly diminish performance... keep the mass as small as possible to do the job...

That's why I suggested a small trim tab of tape... it's low-mass, and it could perhaps be used in conjunction with a bit of wingtip mass to optimize for both...

Later! OL JR :)
 
hey Jeff....how about simply putting a small strip of tape on the elevon (or wing)? just tape applied to the surface...not sure if you would even need a raised trim surface... do you think the mass of the tape would be enough to initiate a turn with the Zooch Orbiter? I mean, she is a small glider. mine is weighing in at 11.0 grams. I honestly don't know...kinda just throwing it out there.

It's possible... I figured that adding a bit of tape in a "pitch up" configuration (like a trim tab on an airplane aileron) would give it a little more control authority on that side and induce a turn... perhaps coupled with a small amount of wingtip weight...

Just be careful that one doesn't overdo it... too much and it'll enter a tight, high speed "death spiral"...

Usually there's a bit of "fudge factor" in building a glider that causes them to turn slightly to one side or the other anyway. A glider that wants to fly straight and true is built exceptionally well with all the aerodynamic surfaces more or less exactly the same size and orientation, and the mass exactly on the centerline. Usually there's SOME degree of "imperfection" that will induce some sort of turn, even if it's only a lazy half-circle between deployment and landing... Adding a bit of weight to the outboard tip of the wing or a tape "trim tab" to give just a little extra pitch-up moment to that side should cause that wing to dip slightly in comparison to the other one... once the wing dips, it should induce a turn because the lift moment is no longer perfectly vertical, but basically keeps the glider "banking" in relation to the ground, thus inducing a turn.

Thing is, make sure that the glider has NO inclination to turn the opposite way before you start... it's always easier to magnify any slight tendency to turn in a given direction, rather than try to make it overcome that tendency and turn in the opposite direction... basically you'd be adding weight/trim to correct the first imbalance, and then have to add more to overcome it and induce a turn in the opposite direction.

I'm waiting to see someone introduce full elevons and two-channel control to one of these Zooch orbiters... a good RC guy could do it, given the micro radio gear and batteries and servos available now... course the glide might not be too good-- the extra weight would be bad, it should be possible... (course I ain't no RC expert... LOL:))

Later! OL JR :)
 
hey Mushtang....I think with my orbiter when I cut the wings out of the balsa that one wing is just the smallest bit bigger than the other....I think that is why mine circles the booster on the descent....just a guess anyway.

seriously, your Shuttle is just gorgeous.

Thanks!!

You've got me thinking. I could probably get away with sanding some off of one wing tip to make it shorter. I might have to repaint a little area but it would be worth it to get the thing to turn.

So instead of adding weight to one wing using clay, I could take weight off of a wing tip.

Or... I could sand the leading edge of one wing square so that the other one has a better air foil shape and might have more lift.

Both of these solutions remove weight instead of adding it. If weight is the enemy of a glider this could only help, right?
 
A glider that wants to fly straight and true is built exceptionally well with all the aerodynamic surfaces more or less exactly the same size and orientation, and the mass exactly on the centerline.
I see what you're saying. I'm building exceptionally well. Well, that's a curse I must own.

Haha, just kidding.


Usually there's SOME degree of "imperfection" that will induce some sort of turn, even if it's only a lazy half-circle between deployment and landing...
Next time I build one of these maybe I'll try to put the rudder on at a slight angle instead of trying very hard to make sure it's as straight as possible. That might do it too.
 
To make my Deltie circle I use a paper clip a few inches out from the root. For my Ecee I used clay between the wingtip vertical stabilizer.
Any tiny bit of weight should do it. VERY tiny. Otherwise it spirals in.
 
Thanks!!

You've got me thinking. I could probably get away with sanding some off of one wing tip to make it shorter. I might have to repaint a little area but it would be worth it to get the thing to turn.

So instead of adding weight to one wing using clay, I could take weight off of a wing tip.

Or... I could sand the leading edge of one wing square so that the other one has a better air foil shape and might have more lift.

Both of these solutions remove weight instead of adding it. If weight is the enemy of a glider this could only help, right?

Some experimentation is certainly possible and probably advisable here...

That said, I don't want to make any specific recommendations... Wes is the REAL expert on these things... HE is the man to ask!

I wouldn't want anybody to mess up a well flying shuttle orbiter glider unless it's been around the block enough and they're willing to experiment with it, and take the chance on ruining its flying characteristics...

Course, building a "CHAD" (cheap and dirty) version of the glider to conduct experiments, or using an old shuttle glider and building a "new" flight version, well, both are certainly doable... Sorta like how I built my "Moonraker 5"...

A couple things jump out at me about your idea, though, Rick... Not knocking your idea-- far from it, I think it has genuine merit, BUT, it's in my nature to "find the holes" in a proposal, so I present these thoughts as they occur to me, out of a sense of "constructive criticism"... take them or ignore them as you see fit...

First, it seems to me you'd have to remove a LOT of balsa to substantially change the weight of one wing to induce a turn... Balsa is not very dense anyway, especially balsa usually specifically chosen for glider use. IOW, compared to clay, an equivalent mass of balsa is going to be MUCH larger, especially when one considers the volume (length x width x height) and the fact that the balsa is necessarily going to be in the form of the thin sheet wings, which means you're going to have to take a lot of length x width area since the thickness (height) is fixed (limited to the thickness of the wing). It COULD make one wing noticeably smaller or "lopsided" compared to the other...

Second, while it's easy to take material OFF (like balsa) it's MUCH harder to "put it back on" if it doesn't work... something worth considering in itself.

Now, gliders also typically have a little twist out near the tips to change the angle of attack slightly from the main part of the wing... this ensures that the tip is the last part of the wing to stall aerodynamically. I wonder if it would be possible to induce a little bit of "differential twist" by slightly warping one wingtip upward a bit and keeping the other perfectly flat... Of course given the shape of the wings, as short, blunt, rounded, long "winglets" on the shuttle orbiters, this would be much more difficult to achieve accurately than on long, thin, glider style wings... so it's probably not worth the effort... but, like I said, it's a thought that has occurred...

That's why basically I suggested a masking tape "trim tab", because it's lightweight, easily modified, and easily removed if it proves unproductive. Masking tape folded over and stuck to itself and bent up to the appropriate angle, then taped down to the rear tab of the wing elevator would be simple and straightforward to do. Final trim could be achieved with a bit of clay...

At least, that's how I'd do it, at least to start... if a more permanent solution was desired later, well, that option remains open... and of course, experimentation would be very cool to see as well, so long as nobody ended up with a glider that wouldn't glide and thus be unhappy...

Later! OL JR :)
 
To make my Deltie circle I use a paper clip a few inches out from the root. For my Ecee I used clay between the wingtip vertical stabilizer.
Any tiny bit of weight should do it. VERY tiny. Otherwise it spirals in.

Good tips!

The Deltie is quite a bit broader than the Zooch shuttle, and I'm sure the mass to area (wing loading) is much less... plus the length of the wing lends itself to having less weight further out from the centerline, giving it more "leverage" (moment of inertia) than an equivalent mass on the much shorter Zooch Shuttle wing...

But, this is correct-- the physics are the same, just the measurements (and thus effects) are slightly different...

Later! OL JR :)
 
Luke...honestly I do not know why my mine circles the booster....I just remember during the build process that one wing looked just a tad off than the other...I was simply throwing that out there as a possibility. I think you are right too, there are so many variables involved....I did not use any filler on my orbiter wings....I was afraid that might throw it off somehow...I made my orbiter before I learned how to make my own decals..so I have a US flag and NASA logo , printed on typewriter paper and glued to the upper wing surface...

I also agree with you on making any changes to a flying orbiter. Mushtang..I wouldn't do a thing to either of your orbiters...if they fly great I would hate to see you do something that would ruin one. Your latest shuttle is awesome and she flies great!! don't mess with perfection!!

Some experimentation is certainly possible and probably advisable here...

That said, I don't want to make any specific recommendations... Wes is the REAL expert on these things... HE is the man to ask!

I wouldn't want anybody to mess up a well flying shuttle orbiter glider unless it's been around the block enough and they're willing to experiment with it, and take the chance on ruining its flying characteristics...

Course, building a "CHAD" (cheap and dirty) version of the glider to conduct experiments, or using an old shuttle glider and building a "new" flight version, well, both are certainly doable... Sorta like how I built my "Moonraker 5"...

A couple things jump out at me about your idea, though, Rick... Not knocking your idea-- far from it, I think it has genuine merit, BUT, it's in my nature to "find the holes" in a proposal, so I present these thoughts as they occur to me, out of a sense of "constructive criticism"... take them or ignore them as you see fit...

First, it seems to me you'd have to remove a LOT of balsa to substantially change the weight of one wing to induce a turn... Balsa is not very dense anyway, especially balsa usually specifically chosen for glider use. IOW, compared to clay, an equivalent mass of balsa is going to be MUCH larger, especially when one considers the volume (length x width x height) and the fact that the balsa is necessarily going to be in the form of the thin sheet wings, which means you're going to have to take a lot of length x width area since the thickness (height) is fixed (limited to the thickness of the wing). It COULD make one wing noticeably smaller or "lopsided" compared to the other...

Second, while it's easy to take material OFF (like balsa) it's MUCH harder to "put it back on" if it doesn't work... something worth considering in itself.

Now, gliders also typically have a little twist out near the tips to change the angle of attack slightly from the main part of the wing... this ensures that the tip is the last part of the wing to stall aerodynamically. I wonder if it would be possible to induce a little bit of "differential twist" by slightly warping one wingtip upward a bit and keeping the other perfectly flat... Of course given the shape of the wings, as short, blunt, rounded, long "winglets" on the shuttle orbiters, this would be much more difficult to achieve accurately than on long, thin, glider style wings... so it's probably not worth the effort... but, like I said, it's a thought that has occurred...

That's why basically I suggested a masking tape "trim tab", because it's lightweight, easily modified, and easily removed if it proves unproductive. Masking tape folded over and stuck to itself and bent up to the appropriate angle, then taped down to the rear tab of the wing elevator would be simple and straightforward to do. Final trim could be achieved with a bit of clay...

At least, that's how I'd do it, at least to start... if a more permanent solution was desired later, well, that option remains open... and of course, experimentation would be very cool to see as well, so long as nobody ended up with a glider that wouldn't glide and thus be unhappy...

Later! OL JR :)
 
That said, I don't want to make any specific recommendations... Wes is the REAL expert on these things... HE is the man to ask!
Wes, what is the best way to get one of your shuttles to turn if they insist on flying straight?

First, it seems to me you'd have to remove a LOT of balsa to substantially change the weight of one wing to induce a turn... Balsa is not very dense anyway, especially balsa usually specifically chosen for glider use.
Good point. But I was thinking further, maybe it would still work, but not because of weight but because of lift. If a wing is 1/8" or 1/4" shorter than the other, the other wing would probably have more lift and would make it turn slightly.

However, your point about removing something you added is easier than replacing something you've removed.

The only problem I have with the tape is that it's not permanent. If I get it to work one day, months later the angle will certainly be different.

So I guess I'll start with clay and go from there. Either way it'll be fun flying it over and over until it's working correctly.
 
Mushtang..I wouldn't do a thing to either of your orbiters...if they fly great I would hate to see you do something that would ruin one. Your latest shuttle is awesome and she flies great!! don't mess with perfection!!

Thanks, but I wouldn't call it perfection. The main reason I want it to turn is so that it won't fly into a tree or really far away. Just flying it on a B engine required a big space, and when I launch my first one on a C and it flies straight I'm walking a mile (not really that far but it's a way).

The first one has turned before, I guess it's caught a gust of wind and banked a little, and it's landed very close to the pad a couple of times. But when there's no wind... it just goes and goes.

Not the biggest problem I've ever had in my life. Or this week. Or even today, and it's only 9am. :)
 
Wes, what is the best way to get one of your shuttles to turn if they insist on flying straight?

He's been having some computer and medical issues so he might not see this post right away so I would try and email him as well.
See Here: https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?68405-Dr-Zooch-Rockets-update&highlight=zooch

Luke's advice seems sound.. being a full scale pilot as well as some rc experience I know that just a little bit of aileron or spoiler type disruption over the wing should produce the desired result. Your rudder idea might produce too much sink rate so I would stick to the small aileron or spoiler approach.

I'm following along with this so when you all get it figured out it will be easier for me in my build. :wink:
 
He's been having some computer and medical issues so he might not see this post right away so I would try and email him as well.
See Here: https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?68405-Dr-Zooch-Rockets-update&highlight=zooch

Luke's advice seems sound.. being a full scale pilot as well as some rc experience I know that just a little bit of aileron or spoiler type disruption over the wing should produce the desired result. Your rudder idea might produce too much sink rate so I would stick to the small aileron or spoiler approach.

I'm following along with this so when you all get it figured out it will be easier for me in my build. :wink:

I was discussing this over lunch with my brother, an airline pilot, and he gave me some things to consider.

The Shuttle has an Elevon, which is the long elevator across the entire back of the glider that combines the functions of an aileron and an elevator. Since there's no trailing edge of a wing to put a little tape flap on, the addition of a little flap to one end of the elevon could behave differently. It's possible that it would pitch up the nose more (maybe resulting in a stall) instead of the desired rolling the glider into a slight turn.

I might go with a little tape flap on the back of the rudder instead. However, on this model (I don't know about the real shuttle) these wings are flat with no dihedral which means there's not much stability in a roll, so it would be easy to put too much turn using a rudder flap.

Putting a bit of clay on a wing tip will be the first thing we try, and depending on how well that works we may move to a piece of tape on the rudder. Clay will make the glider heavier and reduce the flight time slightly, but it's permanent. A piece of tape can be bent back and forth until you get it exactly right and a few weeks or months later the angle will have changed.
 
Good tips!

The Deltie is quite a bit broader than the Zooch shuttle, and I'm sure the mass to area (wing loading) is much less... plus the length of the wing lends itself to having less weight further out from the centerline, giving it more "leverage" (moment of inertia) than an equivalent mass on the much shorter Zooch Shuttle wing...

But, this is correct-- the physics are the same, just the measurements (and thus effects) are slightly different...

Later! OL JR :)

True dat. I simply recommend trying something you can move and remove easily. Once the paper clip found the sweet spot I tiny dab of CA kept it there until the day it met a thermal and decide it was better off somewhere other than my possession. :p
 
I only saw one guy who could make the orbiter go exactly straight and that was the foose man. His orbiter went straight while we were at NARAM in Johnstown... on top of a mountain, it went straight off the mountain and just kept going. I prefer that mine should circle a bit.
 
I only saw one guy who could make the orbiter go exactly straight and that was the foose man. His orbiter went straight while we were at NARAM in Johnstown... on top of a mountain, it went straight off the mountain and just kept going. I prefer that mine should circle a bit.

How's the foose man?? Haven't seen him around here in a coon's age...

Later! OL JR :)
 
I only saw one guy who could make the orbiter go exactly straight and that was the foose man. His orbiter went straight while we were at NARAM in Johnstown... on top of a mountain, it went straight off the mountain and just kept going. I prefer that mine should circle a bit.

I've seen TWO orbiters that go straight.

I was hoping you'd offer some advice, or your opinion on the best method discussed, on how to get it to turn. We'd all prefer ours to circle a bit.
 
The Friday before Labor Day I had a vacation day, so my brother, his daughter, and I went to a field near my house to try and get the shuttle to turn.

Our plan was to add clay to one wing and vary the amounts in order to get it to turn. Clay added on the left wing should make that side dip a little which would give a slight left turn. Correct? For some reason that made it turn right. We didn't completely understand why, maybe it added more air foil on the left wing and created lift? But it didn't matter. A turn is a turn.

Eventually we nailed it and it would circle the rocket most of the time. If there was some wind that could change the glide and still give sections of straight flight, but that's fine with me. It makes the flights all different.

We flew about 14 flights on a B6-2 and the last two on C6-3. The only scare was the first flight when I accidentally loaded a B4-4 and it arced over, headed straight for the ground, and popped the chute about 5 feet from the ground. But there was no damage. Whew!!


[YOUTUBE]h_F1Jft7PmM[/YOUTUBE]
 
that is AWESOME video Mushtang!! I am amazed you could zoom in on her so well during flight! She flies beautifully!
 
Nice Job!! One of these days I'll get mine built,, only had it for about 5yrs.:facepalm:
 
here is a shot of my Zooch Shuttle lifting off on her 18th flight....winds were too strong yesterday...she kinda got caught in an uncontrolled roll....she was just getting tossed around too much...but I thought it was worth the shot to see what she could do ...I am guessing winds around 10-12 mph...

IMG_3054a.jpg
 
here is a shot of my Zooch Shuttle lifting off on her 18th flight....winds were too strong yesterday...she kinda got caught in an uncontrolled roll....she was just getting tossed around too much...but I thought it was worth the shot to see what she could do ...I am guessing winds around 10-12 mph...

View attachment 183070

OK so that's the launch photo... now where's the recovery photo? Only ask cause of the wind and uncontrolled roll you describe.:y:
 
Great job... fantastic vid...

Glad that it's working well for you. Sometimes there's just no substitute for actual experimentation...

later! OL JR :)
 
that is AWESOME video Mushtang!! I am amazed you could zoom in on her so well during flight! She flies beautifully!

Thanks!! I made it with VideoPad Video Editor and found the zoom feature in it. It's a little tricky but worked okay.

The slow motion zoomed in video of the shuttle there at the end almost, to me, looks like the early TV footage of the first flights.
 
sorry Race....my daughter was manning the camera and she took shots of the booster...I don't think she got the Orbiter...but I will double check.

OK so that's the launch photo... now where's the recovery photo? Only ask cause of the wind and uncontrolled roll you describe.:y:
 
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