Our Children's Future: An LDRS34 Teen Group Project

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I'd take a look at this: https://ldrs34.org/bfr-info/ Nothing really out of the ordinary.

Bill's the guy to talk to about towers. Likely the usual 2-3 unistrut with a 1515 adapter.

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Several things to consider when building, prepping, and flying such a rocket that you otherwise have little to no experience with:

1. Be aware of the size of components and their size when constructed. The reason that I say this is that you're getting into the realm of "this thing may not fit through the door." The fin size could be problematic when going through a standard door when the tube axis is parallel to the floor, and your overall tube length may be too tall to permit it from going through the door with the tube perpendicular to the floor. Probably best to build this in the garage, just be wary of displacing one of your parents' cars.

2. As cheap as you are trying to make it, I promise you that it will be more expensive than you're thinking to do it correctly. Don't lose sight of the fact that this is a very large rocket. The standard for project planning is to try to gauge the exact cost and then add 10% for contingencies, waste, unforseen needs/wants, etc. I've also noticed that you're receiving many donations and may be borrowing components for the flight.

3. Donations are great because you obviously don't need to pay for the items. Keep in mind that the donor expects you to follow through with the project and would also appreciate recognition even if they didn't ask for it outright. Borrowing components is also great as it has the potential of decreasing the overall cost of the project. It is important to remember that borrowing has one very, very crucial caveat: the components are not yours! The lender expects the items to be returned in the same condition as they were lent to you, and if you lose, break, damage, wreck, fry, or rip something that you borrowed it is expected that you will make them whole again. I have had to purchase a replacement RF transmitter when I hung a rocket in a tree and I have had to replace another rocketeer's 76/7600 casing after bubbling it with my own EX load. I'd suggest you have a plan in place to replace any item that you borrow through monetary or replacement means.

4. Large rocket parts typically take a lot of work to fit correctly, and you can get into some sticky situations if you force something too far. I am writing this with the coupler fit specifically in mind. In most HPR rockets, say 38mm through 6", the fit of couplers and cones is relatively easy to get right. Additionally, if you've ever been fitting parts together and you get a cone stuck that is barely too tight, it's not overly hard to get apart with a little bit of struggle. This is NOT the case for large rockets. Ask THarrison about putting his 11.5" Little John together, it's not easy! Couple these concerns with the fact that you're working with paper tubes and couplers with unknown tolerances, things could get a little hairy.

5. I fear that your methodology of keeping this thing as cheap as possible is conducive to a "disposable" mentality.

6. Please make sure that you fully understand your electronics for the flight. Make sure they are flight proven, are using reliable switches and batteries, and the static ports are all properly sized. When at the pad, make sure they are all beeping correctly and stand down if anything is out of whack. Understand the correct shear pin usage for the cone and for the love of god ground test this thing. That, in and of it self, will prove challenging for you guys. The size of the chambers we're talking about will require very large amounts of black powder. Couple that with the fact that you're borrowing your parachutes, you will need to coordinate when and where you will be ground testing this thing. A rocket of this size needs to have a reliable recovery system, as there is little doubt that the N motor will put it up there and gravity will bring it back.

7. Make a checklist. Go through a dry run of prepping and write it all down. This will make sure all of the quick links are secured, chutes are attached, batteries are charged, hardware is in place, electronics are armed, and all supplies/tools/tapes are present.

8. Last but not least, understand the rules and regulations surrounding what you are doing. Each one of you needs to understand the mentorship program, the responsibilities of all involved, and the liability of all involved! Do everything necessary to comfort your mentor, and then some! Play by the rules, as they are written, and all should be fine.

Best of luck to you. I will be at the launch and expect that you all will take every precaution to make this a successful and safe flight, even if it requires money to be spent.
 
Thanks for the comments Dan.

1. Thats a good point. These are large fins and will most likely not fit through any of the doors in the house. With that in mind looks like we will be working on my workbench in my garage.

2. Were not really trying to be cheap however trying to make it cost "effective". We are ordering the best tubes we can get however the fact that we have to order them they will need to be shipped. We are looking for the best product we can get without paying more for shipping then the tubes are worth. I can see how going with cheap shortcuts/subsitutes is not great in this situation and we will try to avoid taking short cuts at all costs.

3. We are getting a lot of donations and I'm not going to lye it has really helped. We have contacted each of our sponsors and assured them that we will proudly be displaying their companies Logo on one of the fins. I too have borrowed things and have had to replace them. We completely understand that we will need to replace borrowed items in full if destroyed. For this we have started talking about starting some safety funds for if this happens and like you said if something comes up that needs to be covered that we were not planning on we have it covered.

4. I have started to experience this in the build of my 5.5" nike smoke. the parts need to be aligned just right or they will get stuck and on a heavy rocket like ours we really will need to take our time to get everything aligned so it does not get stuck. We are going to be contacting the company we are getting our tubes from to see what the tolerances for there tubes are. We may even just order them a bit small and glass the outside up to the right diameter. I would prefer to get the tolerances and see what we could do so that increasing the OD of the coupler with fiberglass would be a last resort if nothing else works out.

5. Like I said above were not trying to find the cheapest but rather the best tubes we can get. The tubes we are getting from Yazoo are not cheap!! We believe they are however the best tubes we can get for this project. We are spending nearly $200 to get the best airframe material we can get and then on top of that the tubes will me glassed with 1 layer of 7oz cloth.

6. Yes everything will be passed by Jim before we do anything to ensure we have the right sizing of static ports. Knowing our electronics will be a must we will most likely do a run through with the whole group about what chirps mean what and what error codes certain beeps are. We will be using a RRC3 and Eggtimer for deployment. We would never think about NOT ground testing this before the actually launch. in fact we will most likely ground test it multiple times to ensure we have all of the measurements and calculations correct.

7. A check list is a must and no questions asked will be making a very detailed one!

8. We will all need to read through the rules of the TMP program as even I have not done that in awhile. Trust me when I say we are doing EVERYTHING we can do to make Jim feel safe/comfortable about this project and we have consulted him with every step we have taken so far and will continue to do so.

Thanks for the input Dan it will be taken into mind by the group :)
 
I am really in favor of folks pushing limits, however I begin to wonder if you guys have bitten off way more than you can chew. There are multitudes of folks out here with years of experience that have not attempted something this ambitious. You have a great mentor, and have some support from the general community. However I sense way too many things you are not considering on your way to the build. Perhaps a moment for you guys to stop and think. You will still impress the heck out of the community if you successfully do this on something in the 7.5" range with parts designed for rocketry as opposed to the engineering you are trying now with little or no experience to go on. You are getting good help from the community, however not even your mentor is nearby to provide real time help as you need it.

I like seeing people strive and will help as I can, however I have reservations about the potential for success.

Al
 
What I have failed to mention is that I am not alone in this endeavor. I have a whole team of long time fliers supporting not only me but the project as a whole. We have the people in place to pull this off, and I look forward to the journey.
 
What I have failed to mention is that I am not alone in this endeavor. I have a whole team of long time fliers supporting not only me but the project as a whole. We have the people in place to pull this off, and I look forward to the journey.

Thank you Jim.
 
Have any of you aside from Matt Fletcher ever met Jim Scarpine? If not, you owe him for putting his neck out there.

Some lessons I learned back when I was a kid on the East Coast flying big HP projects -

1. Work first, talk later. So many of these start out with big threads and big plans, and little in the way of actual traction.

2. Do the project with people in your area, mentor included. The internet makes it a small world but there's no substitute for in person interaction and tutelage.

3. Do everything yourself. It will be much more gratifying that way (mixing the motor included - I can name five people in that club off the top of my head that could host you, mentor you, and walk you through mixing the motor, if they are willing).

4. Planning is only worth something if it's enacted. Back in the AIM days (dating myself, I know), I remember countless hours, days of conversation over projects that never got finished. Kids with big plans are great - I was one - but do yourselves a favor and lend credibility to your plans by following through with it.

5. Pick something within your skill level. Contrary to what others are saying, I think it's a pretty good route to take to build a huge rocket. The flight will be sub-mach and not require much in the way of reinforcement, precision, or anything of the like. Lobbing something up is actually pretty easy and gets you major wow points at a big launch, which seems like something you're looking for.

6. Rocketry is a small community, especially on the East Coast. When I was 19 I had the gall to make the jump from mixing two successful M motors to making a 6" O, and have it let go at about 1,000 feet in somebody else's rocket in a very public spectacle. That was a wake-up call, big time, I got my head right and I haven't blown up a motor since (that was 6 years ago). It was 4 years between me blowing up that motor and moving out of the East Coast, and even after countless successful flights with my own motors both on the East Coast and out at Balls (N, O, and P motors), I never quite shook the reputation of the galling 19 year old that blew up that O motor. I disagree with everybody here that what you've chosen is a challenging project - I don't think it is - but make sure that you're successful in whatever it is you're doing and make sure the mentor is a formality only (in other words - make it clear to everybody involved that you have all your bases covered, and then some, and that you aren't having your hand held). It'll follow you around far longer than you think, for better or for worse, given the outcome.
 
...
5. Pick something within your skill level. Contrary to what others are saying, I think it's a pretty good route to take to build a huge rocket. The flight will be sub-mach and not require much in the way of reinforcement, precision, or anything of the like. Lobbing something up is actually pretty easy...

6. ...I disagree with everybody here that what you've chosen is a challenging project - I don't think it is - but make sure that you're successful in whatever it is you're doing and make sure the mentor is a formality only (in other words - make it clear to everybody involved that you have all your bases covered, and then some, and that you aren't having your hand held). It'll follow you around far longer than you think, for better or for worse, given the outcome.

+1.
 
I don't really see anything on this rocket that screams "pushing the limits" to me. I'd say it is a pretty reasonable achievement for a group like them to work towards. It's a little bit short timeline wise since they are a bit remote from each other, but it is definitely achievable. To me it seems like they are pushing the boundaries in the places that are appropriate for them to do so. If they came here saying they wanted to build some crazy motor with an all aluminum body i'd have reservations for that being their first large rocket project unless they had some pretty serious mentorship behind them. But large scale is a pretty safe way to push the boundaries.

They seem have enough experienced people watching over them to keep things safe. But some of the reservation about this project that I see is more related to the worry that they might not be successful. I don't agree with that attitude. Let people fail. Knowing how to react and what to do when you fail on a project like this is probably more important than being successful (As long as you actually learn from it).

Good luck guys!
 
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I don't really see anything on this rocket that screams "pushing the limits" to me. I'd say it is a pretty reasonable achievement for a group like them to work towards. It's a little bit short timeline wise since they are a bit remote from each other, but it is definitely achievable. To me it seems like they are pushing the boundaries in the places that are appropriate for them to do so. If they came here saying they wanted to build some crazy motor with an all aluminum body i'd have reservations for that being their first large rocket project unless they had some pretty serious mentorship behind them. But large scale is a pretty safe way to push the boundaries.

They seem have enough experienced people watching over them to keep things safe. But some of the reservation about this project that I see is more related to the worry that they might not be successful. I don't agree with that attitude. Let people fail. Knowing how to react and what to do when you fail on a project like this is probably more important than being successful (As long as you actually learn from it).

Good luck guys!

+1

I most agree here. This hobby is all about learning from failure.

I say let them do whatever they want.




Alexander Solis

TRA - Level 1
Mariah 54 - CTI RedLightning- I-100 - 6,345 Feet
 
I think this is a great project - for ALL of US here on the forum. Lots of sage advice and words of wisdom in the posts so far (see #63/patelldp and #69prophecy for examples). We are all learning quite a bit from this so far, and I bet there's lots more to come.

The one thing I haven't quite learned yet, that these guys seem to have figured out, is how to get a group together on a cool project and have a whole bunch of people jump in and donate stuff to it! Motors, components, vinyl, etc., etc. - not to mention the time and expertise put in by your mentor(s) - dang you guys, you're doing great so far!

Best of luck on this project guys - I hope you are paying attention to all the great advice coming your way, and that this whole thing is a great success. Keep us all informed and updated!

s6
 
I think this is a great project - for ALL of US here on the forum. Lots of sage advice and words of wisdom in the posts so far (see #63/patelldp and #69prophecy for examples). We are all learning quite a bit from this so far, and I bet there's lots more to come.

The one thing I haven't quite learned yet, that these guys seem to have figured out, is how to get a group together on a cool project and have a whole bunch of people jump in and donate stuff to it! Motors, components, vinyl, etc., etc. - not to mention the time and expertise put in by your mentor(s) - dang you guys, you're doing great so far!

Best of luck on this project guys - I hope you are paying attention to all the great advice coming your way, and that this whole thing is a great success. Keep us all informed and updated!

s6
Ya know... I still haven't quite figured it out yet... All we did was get the word out to people and/or ask for quotes on parts... the responses are the best :)
Thanks guys for your continued support... we are going to need it for this.
 
I think this is a great project - for ALL of US here on the forum. Lots of sage advice and words of wisdom in the posts so far (see #63/patelldp and #69prophecy for examples). We are all learning quite a bit from this so far, and I bet there's lots more to come.

Yea, listen to Prophecy and I. We got our starts in the same club, right around the same time, but with drastically different budgets :p

Believe we were both 13/14 year olds in HPR.
 
They seem have enough experienced people watching over them to keep things safe. But some of the reservation about this project that I see is more related to the worry that they might not be successful. I don't agree with that attitude. Let people fail. Knowing how to react and what to do when you fail on a project like this is probably more important than being successful (As long as you actually learn from it).
!

This isn't a possibility of failure on a small scale with a few people around. This is a giant scale, at one of the largest events of the year. The attitude of "oh let them fail, they'll learn" does not apply.

I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm not saying they can't do it. But they do have a large gap of experience to this project to cover (which is very possible). But if the people in charge see a failure coming.... Don't expect them to let this fly.

I love to study failure. You do learn a TON more. However, letting people blaze away into it is irresponsible.
 
This isn't a possibility of failure on a small scale with a few people around. This is a giant scale, at one of the largest events of the year. The attitude of "oh let them fail, they'll learn" does not apply.

I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm not saying they can't do it. But they do have a large gap of experience to this project to cover (which is very possible). But if the people in charge see a failure coming.... Don't expect them to let this fly.

I love to study failure. You do learn a TON more. However, letting people blaze away into it is irresponsible.

Perhaps I should have been a bit more specific of what kind of failure.

Ignoring safety rules to let them fly isn't what I was intending to imply. I was saying let them try to build the rocket, If they get to launch day and their rocket isn't up to spec, well tough your aren't going to fly. That was the kind of failure I was speaking to, not all kinds of failure end in a fire. This is a pretty conventional rocket, even if a bit big, so figuring out if it is safe to fly or not shouldn't be that difficult. Just as long as they document what they do for the construction of the fincan. Might even be advisable to see if they can meet up with their mentor during that construction process since it's the most difficult part.

My very first HPR rocket was 13' tall and 6" in diameter, had an active control system on board, 8 different computers, several arrays of sensors, carbon composite fins, and flew on a L2200G. The largest rocket that I had flown at that point was a estes D motor in a construction paper rocket. To top it off, our NAR club in our state had been founded about 3 months before we started the project. We embarked on uncharted territory in almost every single direction, figuring out how to get rocket motors shipped to us, a control system scheme that had never really been tried by anyone before, lining up launch sites, it was the largest amateur rocket launched in Alaska for several years. Our mentor also lived 360 miles away, adding some difficulty in communicating and planning. But, seven months, several HPR certs, many sleepless nights, a book of lessons learned, and 3 launches later we were successful on that project on pretty much all of the requirements that both were put on us, and that we had set for ourselves. So I may be a bit off in my perception of difficulty of things, but I wasn't all that much older than these guys when I did that project.

Writing a group off because of their experience level isn't how you help them grow. Even if the project is more than what they can chew, help them figure out why and then with that process you generally will have a much better understanding of things on the projects you can handle.

When I set off on a project, I typically have two sets of requirement that I will set. My minimums to achieve that will let me call my project a success. Then usually a much more ambitious set that will push me to learn more things than I would have otherwise, but if I don't happen to meet all of them, it's ok.

I seem to recall things like porta-potties and other such oddities being launched a previous LDRSs, so it's not like their rocket is outside the realm of reasonable.
 
The project should absolutely go forward, however my concern is only that the team is so enthusiastic that there is a sense the details are not being adequately considered while staring down the road to launch day. As you note, failure is the best teacher their is, however I would hate to see a failure that is so very easily preventable as not being able to get it out of the room it was built in because it is too large to fit thru the door. Or, not being able to complete the project by way of underestimating the materials needed to complete the assembly. Little things like that. The actual build and fly, those are the learning opportunities.

Still, this is no about our perception, it is about their project. I will contribute what I can as a project engineer, however the actual build, they need to demonstrate the thought processes at all points.
 
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Ok as we begin to finalize the build I have one question. These are large tubes that will need a lot of black powder for deployment. what I want to do is epoxy in 2 bulkheads into the airframe to reduce the amount of tube that will need to be pressurized for deployment of the parachutes. Bolts will be attached to the bulkhead for shock cord attachment points. For drogue deployment the charge wells will be on the bulk plate of the AV-Bay. The charge wells for the deployment of the main will be on the bulkhead epoxied further up into the tube. The terminal with the charge wells on the bulkhead will be attached to the altimeters with wires running through the empty tube into the AV-Bay. The top half of the Av-bay will be expired into the upper airframe. My question is will the bulkheads be able to support the shock from deployment and the weight of the rocket while defending on the chute? If not does anyone have any other suggestions for shortening the length of tube thats needs to be pressurized while keeping only 2 separation points. We were trying to stay away from stuffer tubes but need be we will us them.


Screen Shot 2014-12-02 at 2.46.35 PM.jpg
 
Ok as we begin to finalize the build I have one question. These are large tubes that will need a lot of black powder for deployment. what I want to do is epoxy in 2 bulkheads into the airframe to reduce the amount of tube that will need to be pressurized for deployment of the parachutes. Bolts will be attached to the bulkhead for shock cord attachment points. For drogue deployment the charge wells will be on the bulk plate of the AV-Bay. The charge wells for the deployment of the main will be on the bulkhead epoxied further up into the tube. The terminal with the charge wells on the bulkhead will be attached to the altimeters with wires running through the empty tube into the AV-Bay. The top half of the Av-bay will be expired into the upper airframe. My question is will the bulkheads be able to support the shock from deployment and the weight of the rocket while defending on the chute? If not does anyone have any other suggestions for shortening the length of tube thats needs to be pressurized while keeping only 2 separation points. We were trying to stay away from stuffer tubes but need be we will us them.


View attachment 248054

It depends. (You had to see that coming...)

You have a couple of things to be concerned about. #1, your bulkhead needs to withstand the pressurization of the bay, and #2 it needs to withstand the shock of deployment. Have you considered running allthread from these bulkheads to another bulkhead? In the fincan, this would mean that you would essentially have your fincan with a few lengths of allthread running from the Top CR to a floating bulkhead. You would then fillet this bulkhead. This will add a LOT of strength in both directions, and 4 pieces of 1/4-20 steel allthread should do the trick.

Have you considered a "stuffer tube?" Basically, find some 6" carboard tubing and center it inside of your airframe with a couple of CR's. This reduces the area that you need to pressurize significantly, but still should permit your main parachute to fit.
 
My question is will the bulkheads be able to support the shock from deployment and the weight of the rocket while defending on the chute? If not does anyone have any other suggestions for shortening the length of tube thats needs to be pressurized while keeping only 2 separation points. We were trying to stay away from stuffer tubes but need be we will us them.

Where is this thing going to separate? Can you provide a sketch of what you envision for the parts? In particular are you looking at the classic design or at a zipper-less config?
 
Where is this thing going to separate? Can you provide a sketch of what you envision for the parts? In particular are you looking at the classic design or at a zipper-less config?

It separates before the AV-Bay and at the Nosecone so traditional. We planed on using 1/4X20 all thread for attaching Bulkhead in the "fin can" to the forward centering ring. We are going to use a stuffer tube for the main airframe.
 
Connor , hold off on the stuff tube till the end . Wait till the end when you know more accurately how much the bird weighs and also the size of the recovery items being used . You could also just stick a centering ring ( 9 inch to 4 inch )in the BT where you want you recovery gear to sit . Then you can run your recovery cable to the fin can , eliminating need for all thread and it will also help cut down on the BP needed ( as long as the charge is located on the bottom of the av bay) . Don't be afraid to put the powder right to it , those tubes are thick walled and strong .

Eric
 
Where are the mentors on this?
Haven't they discussed how to this with you guys?

I would hope you had a talk with them before going public with all this.

Anyhow I'll give you a hint .....look at these pics for how to reduce payload volume very simply.....cut it in half & bolt the NC to upper....treat it like a long NC....now you can DD like any other rocket & spare all the complexity. We only had to pressurize 3ft. this way & with the 27ft chute in there,much less actually. This follows your request of only needing 2 separation points.

Use at least 5/16 all thread on Av-bay, with a steel plate on the inside of each BP...all thread runs through this. 2 U-bolts on each BP. Run a Y-harness from them [each end] to shock cords [1in TN] All this keeps you from yanking out from BP's....50lbs with 10 or more G's is over 500lbs of fast moving force on a BP. Things get ugly fast if everything is not perfect.....usually it is not. Prepare for the worst....hope for the best.

Hopefully who ever you are dealing with, has done something this large before. Good Luck...you will need it...we all do on big stuff!

This is how did we it... 3 times with the same rocket....that doesn't happen very often!

100_6189.jpg

100_6195.jpg
 
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Where are the mentors on this?
Haven't they discussed how to this with you guys?

I would hope you had a talk with them before going public with all this.

Anyhow I'll give you a hint .....look at these pics for how to reduce payload volume very simply.....cut it in half & bolt the NC to upper....treat it like a long NC....now you can DD like any other rocket & spare all the complexity. We only had to pressurize 3ft. this way & with the 27ft chute in there,much less actually. This follows your request of only needing 2 separation points.

Use at least 5/16 all thread on Av-bay, with a steel plate on the inside of each BP...all thread runs through this. 2 U-bolts on each BP. Run a Y-harness from them [each end] to shock cords [1in TN] All this keeps you from yanking out from BP's....50lbs with 10 or more G's is over 500lbs of fast moving force on a BP. Things get ugly fast if everything is not perfect.....usually it is not. Prepare for the worst....hope for the best.

Hopefully who ever you are dealing with, has done something this large before. Good Luck...you will need it...we all do on big stuff!

This is how did we it... 3 times with the same rocket....that doesn't happen very often!


Jim, seriously? Have you not been paying attention regarding mentor?? You hurt me bro!!
 
No, I've haven't followed this....been struggling to get back home.. how did you get roped into this?

Well then buddy step up....why are they asking for solutions, haven't you told them how too yet? LOL

Get them young'ns in line scoutmaster!

Ok..I'm done, gonna sit back & see where this goes....good luck to you also.
 
No, I've haven't followed this....been struggling to get back home.. how did you get roped into this?

Well then buddy step up....why are they asking for solutions, haven't you told them how too yet? LOL

Get them young'ns in line scoutmaster!

Ok..I'm done, gonna sit back & see where this goes....good luck to you also.


Jim had told us everything everybody posted above. Trying to keep our options open and put the question out to the forum.
 
QUOTE=conman13;1390622]Jim had told us everything everybody posted above. Trying to keep our options open and put the question out to the forum.[/QUOTE]

Yea, what he said!! :neener:
 
Jim had told us everything everybody posted above. Trying to keep our options open and put the question out to the forum.

Then why bother? I wasted 5 minutes of my life typing a response to an open ended question that you already knew everything about? 5 MINUTES I WILL NEVER GET BACK!!!

I guess you did choose the best mentor ever!
 
This comic from last week made me think of some of the posts in this thread.

wumo141129.gif

These emotions seem to have calmed down in the past few days.
Maybe you guys are diving into the deep end but you have a plan, a mentor and the guts to expose yourself to the forum. I wish you well.
I hope to see some of the results of practicing your new skills on some smaller rockets for those of you who fly with MMMSC.
 
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