dog barf

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There are certainly more "Pros" than "Cons" to using "dog barf" wadding as opposed to Estes wadding... This is especially true when using public property.

If you have a club like "Micromiester" that can effectively police their trash, awesome! For most of us, it is easier to eliminate the issue and use cellulose wadding.


Jerome
 
Just remember though, it is important that you get the CELLULOSE insulation. We had one guy that picked up a bunch of Fiberglass insulation and tried to use that.

Using fiberglass is a good way to get banned from the field. That stuff will lay around for a millennium and is hazardous to livestock/wildlife.
 
Right Wing Wacko said:
Just remember though, it is important that you get the CELLULOSE insulation. We had one guy that picked up a bunch of Fiberglass insulation and tried to use that.

Using fiberglass is a good way to get banned from the field. That stuff will lay around for a millennium and is hazardous to livestock/wildlife.
Click to expand...

Exactly...

Later! OL JR :)
 
JeromeK99 said:
There are certainly more "Pros" than "Cons" to using "dog barf" wadding as opposed to Estes wadding... This is especially true when using public property.

If you have a club like "Micromiester" that can effectively police their trash, awesome! For most of us, it is easier to eliminate the issue and use cellulose wadding.


Jerome
Click to expand...

Absolutely Jerome:
Being good stewards of the land we fly from is Part and Parcel of Flying model rockets. but active Policing of the grounds is generally NOT NECESSARY. As I and JR pointed out Estes and Quest tissue wadding can be reused if picked up the day it was first launched, with the cost of these Packets these days Most flying folks pick up wadding they come across while out recovering models just because it saves them money. If this type wadding is iout more the over night it's usually no longer good, almost gone with the first dew or small amount of Rain. NEVER and Eye Sore as CZ suggested.

The reason for using a combination in the first place is to A) Better protect the recovery system from the Very Heat & Gas porous Dog Barf, which as a History of allowing heat damage to both Plastic and Nylon chutes. and B) to reduce the overall Cost and amount of Tissue needed to adequately protect the laundry.

For a club, Section or Prefect to out and out ban the use of a perfectly good and environmentally sound material is simply a Bad Call on their part. CZ and others in said club should Question such a ban and request a change to allow limited use of standard ejection wadding to better serve the intended purpose.
 
Last edited:
On the issue of blow by embers, my trick is to make sure that the barf is broken up very small. Then I use a small dowel to knock it all down into the body.

Used to think I wanted a stopper that would push everything out. But found that all I really wanted was something to catch burning particles. Also made sure my chute slide in and out easily and let the nose cone drag it out.

Since then I have never had a problem with a charged chute or a failed deployment.
 
Micromeister said:
Absolutely Jerome:
Being good stewards of the land we fly from is Part and Parcel of Flying model rockets. but active Policing of the grounds is generally NOT NECESSARY. As I and JR pointed out Estes and Quest tissue wadding can be reused if picked up the day it was first launched, with the cost of these Packets these days Most flying folks pick up wadding they come across while out recovering models just because it saves them money. If this type wadding is iout more the over night it's usually no longer good, almost gone with the first dew or small amount of Rain. NEVER and Eye Sore as CZ suggested.

The reason for using a combination in the first place is to A) Better protect the recovery system from the Very Heat & Gas porous Dog Barf, which as a History of allowing heat damage to both Plastic and Nylon chutes. and B) to reduce the overall Cost and amount of Tissue needed to adequately protect the laundry.

For a club, Section or Prefect to out and out ban the use of a perfectly good and environmentally sound material is simply a Bad Call on their part. CZ and others in said club should Question such a ban and request a change to allow limited use of standard ejection wadding to better serve the intended purpose.
Click to expand...

John, I doubt it's particularly helpful to make such blanket statements as "NEVER" and stuff like that. Remember CZ is likely in a completely different area with a completely different climate or at least a sufficiently different situation that it might make issues for them that it doesn't for us... In a dry climate, the Estes wadding COULD persist for enough time to create "litter issues", or if they're flying from someplace where its a particularly sensitive issue due to the circumstances, neighbors, shared use of the property, or whatever. I know that in the damp environs of the mid-Atlantic coast where you're at, and the frequent rains and humidity in the Houston area where I'm at, that Estes wadding won't stick around long... BUT, go out to Arizona or someplace with a drier, more desert-like climate, with infrequent rains and little/no dew, and Estes wadding could lay around a pretty long time. Throw in windy conditions (which such areas often have) and it could be blowing all over the place.

Now, like you, I might question an outright "ban" on the stuff, since it IS biodegradable, if it's a big issue with their landowner or neighbors and has/could cause problems for their club, then it's in their best interests to "ban" the use of sheet wadding and require the use of dog barf, which at least has the virtue of being in very small particles instead of wadded up sheets or balls, which at least wouldn't be as noticeable or as much of a "litter issue", even if it persists for almost as long under the same conditions.

I've learned that there are HUGE differences in how things are done regionally, in most areas of life, simply because of differing local conditions, different circumstances, and different mindsets or priorities or problems.

Just because *we* do it a certain way doesn't automatically make every *other* way "wrong", in a lot of cases. I think we'd better serve the purposes of the discussion for saving the "absolutes" for things that are immutable regardless of location, like the CG/CP relationship on stability and things of that sort...

Later! OL JR :)
 
If you//your club/your land owner are ok with the tissue, then there is nothing wrong with it. Especially if you guys are diligent in policing your field. All I did is convey the practices of the 2 Twin Cities clubs. I doubt your getting all the tissue though. If a rocket is ejecting it at hundreds or thousands of feet, especially on a windy day, I would assume a significant amount is not found. But I assume it degrades quickly.
 
At home here we use cotton balls. Although flammable, usually are just a bit scorched on one side the rest of it stays white. It works and my chutes or streamers are not burnt up.

Cost, isn't much

I think many over-think what is required
cottonball.JPG
 
DAllen said:
That has got to be one of the more ingenious ideas I've heard of late. I've had similar issues on occastion so I have to try that. Completely makes sense. Now on my 4" L1 rocket I think I put in about 8" to 12" worth of dog barf so it's rarely I have an issue there but not every rocket has that kind of space inside.
Click to expand...

When I did my JL1, my mentor taught me kinda like micromaster said... we put a ton of estes wadding down (actually, homemade treated toilet paper) and then put like 7" of Dog Barf on top... worked well
 
ASA said:
At home here we use cotton balls. Although flammable, usually are just a bit scorched on one side the rest of it stays white. It works and my chutes or streamers are not burnt up.

Cost, isn't much

I think many over-think what is required
cottonball.JPG
Click to expand...

Treat 'em with borate for fire retardant and you'll have something. Otherwise, it's quite possible (and even probable) you're dropping smoldering cotton balls onto your launch site (and surrounding area as CZ mentioned) and it's entirely possible you could start a fire because of it. NEVER a good idea!

The recovery wadding and stuff is flameproof/fire retardant treated for a REASON. Don't suggest others use something that is NOT covered by the safety rules/requirements. I know I used to fly my rockets with regular toilet paper in the 80's when I was a teen... BUT, I was flying off my own farm, in the middle of a 60 acre cotton field that was rows of lush green growing cotton plants in basically loose, dry bare soil. I would NEVER recommend folks use that except on their own place in similar conditions...

Lets follow the accepted "best practices" which are in place to ensure safety to the maximum amount possible, shall we?? :)

Later! OL JR :)
 
Actually we're talking requirements here. From the NAR Safety Code:

"10. Recovery System. I will use a recovery system such as a streamer or parachute in my rocket so that it returns safely and undamaged and can be flown again, and I will use only flame-resistant or fireproof recovery system wadding in my rocket."

As an RSO I wouldn't allow untreated cotton as recovery wadding; IMO it is not compliant.
 
ASA said:
At home here we use cotton balls. Although flammable, usually are just a bit scorched on one side the rest of it stays white. It works and my chutes or streamers are not burnt up.

Cost, isn't much

I think many over-think what is required
cottonball.JPG
Click to expand...

I have cotton balls as tinder in my emergency fire-starting kit for backpacking. The take a spark easily and smolder for a long time, and they are easy to blow into a flame. I think they are better tinder than wadding.
 
luke strawwalker said:
John, I doubt it's particularly helpful to make such blanket statements as "NEVER" and stuff like that. Remember CZ is likely in a completely different area with a completely different climate or at least a sufficiently different situation that it might make issues for them that it doesn't for us... In a dry climate, the Estes wadding COULD persist for enough time to create "litter issues", or if they're flying from someplace where its a particularly sensitive issue due to the circumstances, neighbors, shared use of the property, or whatever. I know that in the damp environs of the mid-Atlantic coast where you're at, and the frequent rains and humidity in the Houston area where I'm at, that Estes wadding won't stick around long... BUT, go out to Arizona or someplace with a drier, more desert-like climate, with infrequent rains and little/no dew, and Estes wadding could lay around a pretty long time. Throw in windy conditions (which such areas often have) and it could be blowing all over the place.

Now, like you, I might question an outright "ban" on the stuff, since it IS biodegradable, if it's a big issue with their landowner or neighbors and has/could cause problems for their club, then it's in their best interests to "ban" the use of sheet wadding and require the use of dog barf, which at least has the virtue of being in very small particles instead of wadded up sheets or balls, which at least wouldn't be as noticeable or as much of a "litter issue", even if it persists for almost as long under the same conditions.

I've learned that there are HUGE differences in how things are done regionally, in most areas of life, simply because of differing local conditions, different circumstances, and different mindsets or priorities or problems.

Just because *we* do it a certain way doesn't automatically make every *other* way "wrong", in a lot of cases. I think we'd better serve the purposes of the discussion for saving the "absolutes" for things that are immutable regardless of location, like the CG/CP relationship on stability and things of that sort...

Later! OL JR :)
Click to expand...

:clap:

Out West in the Summer with no rain the Estes "TP" and especially the Quest "float paper" can last a long time. I have been out looking for a rocket lost weeks before and found my dog barf and blue Quest wadding sandwich still in tact. OOPS! better pick that up and reuse! At least that tells you the rocket is probably not too far away and in good shape. Darn sage brush and hopefully the Buffalo haven't trodden on it, or worse. Always try to buy a native used car from the South West!
 
Micromeister said:
One little trick I've found over the last Decade or so.

Using dog Barf only in LPR and MPR models I've had several Plastic and Nylon chutes damaged by "Blow-By" embers. To remedy this I started using a single sheet of Estes FP wadding below the 2 to 3 diameters of Dog Barf then a single sheet or two on top and around the Chute or streamer. Vastly extends a pack of Estes expensive wadding while giving positive protection for my chutes. Since starting this practice I have not had another burned hole or melted chute or streamer. With models over 4" diameter I use 3 overlapping sheets on the bottom to get complete coverage.
Click to expand...

GMTA. I had some blow by in a 4" airframe on my first HP flight using dog barf at an LDRS in Argonia, Kansas in the mid 1990s. Put a nice hole in my first 48" chute, despite 3 diameters of well crumbled dog barf being in there.

Every since, I have always used a couple of sheets of Estes wadding in with the dog barf. No more blow by.
 
I had some dog barf blow by in my Mega Mosquito on an E12 flight this year - melted the parachute into a nice wad. No damage on recovery though... Will use the wadding + dog barf next time.

Chris
 
Your club launched where there is moisture and periodic rain. Clubs or individuals that launch in extremely dry environments will see Estes or Quest wadding persist on the ground for many weeks. This is unaccrptable littering for a public park or any site for that matter.

My NAR Section launches in a huge County Regional Park. We use a minimum punt of Estes/Quest wadding to form a cup and fill 2 to 3 body tube diameters in length with fluffy cellulose insulation and blow it down like a blow gun.

Litter is virtually eliminated.

Micromeister said:
Cz brat:
Our club is one of the larger one's in the nation. we have Hundreds of Models launched the 3rd Saterday of nearly EVERY month. Some months we don't quite break the 100 flight mark but they are RARE Months. Many of our Club members and Public fliers use Estes Wadding only. Many of us use dog Barf and I and a few others use the combination discribed in my earlier post.
Estes Wadding IS biodegradable, breaking down very quickly. If retrieved the same day can be reused which some of us also do.
The Club flys from a State Park, do you really think the state would allow us to use this wadding (Estes and Dog Barf) if it were an Eye-Sore.
Your observation is simply and totally incorrect.
Click to expand...
 
I heard a great suggestion. The tip was to wrap the chute in a sheet or two of recovery wadding, but then pack loosely "dog barf" into the rest of the tube. This cuts the expense of using solely recovery wadding to pack the larger tube. But the fireproofing qualities of the sheets are concentrated around the mylar chute to shield it in case of "blow by".
 
For those who like the combo of Estes wadding and dog barf, but not the cost, the Estes blast off pack comes with a pretty good size pack of Estes wadding, plus extra Ignitors. IMO if you fly a variety of low power, it is one of the best engine deals out there. Comes with 6 each A8-3, B6-4, C6-3, and C6-5 , and 30 Ignitors........er,,,,,,,starters.
 
BABAR said:
For those who like the combo of Estes wadding and dog barf, but not the cost, the Estes blast off pack comes with a pretty good size pack of Estes wadding, plus extra Ignitors. IMO if you fly a variety of low power, it is one of the best engine deals out there. Comes with 6 each A8-3, B6-4, C6-3, and C6-5 , and 30 Ignitors........er,,,,,,,starters.
Click to expand...

I gotta agree with that.
There's enough ignitors and recovery wadding to suit me.
Of course, I also have a bail of dog barf, and so I'm 'saving' the recovery wadding
for those times/applications when I need both or just the sheets.
 

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