Where to start with composites and reloadables

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lcorinth

lcorinth

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I'd like to start gaining experience with composite motors, and possibly (probably?) reloadables.

I have four rockets to build which have 29mm motor mounts (one Quest Big Dog, and three Estes Pro Series II on the way soon), so I'd like to get something for those. I'm not sure if I should start with single-use motors at first, or if there's really not a good reason to hold back from getting a reloadable casing.

I'm not entirely sure what I should shop for. I'd like to do my reading first, and actually look at the thing I'll be using before I start using it, and make sure I know how to take it apart and put it back together (if it's reloadable). I am not HP certified, so I only need something that will hold maybe an F or G motor, but I do hope to attempt a certification some time maybe next summer, so if there's a reloadable that can be upgraded to hold an H or I grain, that would be good. Otherwise, I'll just get something bigger when the time comes.

I'm looking at this as an investment, so, while I don't wish to spend the most money possible, I don't feel I need to go as cheap as possible on it either.

I don't know, apart from diameter, what size (length) motor I should maybe go for, or what brand. I've read some about both AeroTech and Cesaroni, but I don't know if there's a usability difference between the two, or if there's one way a beginner should lean. I was hoping I might get some advice.

I just started reading High Power Rocketry, which I'm sure will have information I might need for a mid power motor, but I wanted to ask actual users what they thought.

Any advice, preferred brands, sizes I should look for, etc? I'm thinking I might even get something at the BuyMotors.com Black Friday sale, if I can make a decision by this weekend. Actually launching it, I'm not in a hurry - I plan on doing my homework before taking anything out on the field.

Thanks!
 
Couple of notes I've found from flying composites over the past few months:
-Econojets are great in the PSIIs and would work in the big dog with longer delays. They are small F's that don't require hazmat and come in 4 propellents. The new economax G74Ws are also quite cool and can be as low as $8 each from wildman. Aerotech single use are generally good starting motors for composites.

-I haven't used aerotech 29/40-120 yet, but these have very cheap reloads and have a range of E-G.

-CTI reloads are great but a bit expensive for the impulse. They build easy and being able to use spacers in the cases gives you a huge range of motors in 1 case. If you have a 3 grain 29mm case and 2 spacers, you can fly 1,2,and 3 grain motors ranging from midrange F to small H. There is a 29mm starter set for $50 that will cover practically every non-highpower motor you could want (and some H's if you want to certify), Apogee components has a lot of info about CTI hardware and motors. Building a motor takes around 1-2 minutes so they are great if you want to try reloads.

Edit: also, you can generally fly motors in the PSIIs outside the recommended list. I've flown my Leviathan on an F120 1 grain Vmax, and PSIIs can definitely take H motors even built stock.
 
SCrocketfan said:
-CTI reloads are great but a bit expensive for the impulse. They build easy and being able to use spacers in the cases gives you a huge range of motors in 1 case. If you have a 3 grain 29mm case and 2 spacers, you can fly 1,2,and 3 grain motors ranging from midrange F to small H.
Click to expand...

Aerotech has the same sort of method in their 'high power' 29mm hardware system as well as the 38mm and 54mm system. In the end, I suppose you could equate it to the time/cost/quality pyramid; with quality being approximate unity between the two.
 
I started with the AeroTech 29/40-120 case and a G53FJ, pretty easy to assemble and I thought it was a good intro into composites. My next composite motor was a CTI G80 Skidmark, really easy to assemble (Less than 2 minutes) and clean up was a breeze. Lets just say I'm hooked on sparkies now...
 
lcorinth said:
I'd like to start gaining experience with composite motors, and possibly (probably?) reloadables.

I have four rockets to build which have 29mm motor mounts (one Quest Big Dog, and three Estes Pro Series II on the way soon), so I'd like to get something for those. I'm not sure if I should start with single-use motors at first, or if there's really not a good reason to hold back from getting a reloadable casing.

I'm not entirely sure what I should shop for. I'd like to do my reading first, and actually look at the thing I'll be using before I start using it, and make sure I know how to take it apart and put it back together (if it's reloadable). I am not HP certified, so I only need something that will hold maybe an F or G motor, but I do hope to attempt a certification some time maybe next summer, so if there's a reloadable that can be upgraded to hold an H or I grain, that would be good. Otherwise, I'll just get something bigger when the time comes.

I'm looking at this as an investment, so, while I don't wish to spend the most money possible, I don't feel I need to go as cheap as possible on it either.

I don't know, apart from diameter, what size (length) motor I should maybe go for, or what brand. I've read some about both AeroTech and Cesaroni, but I don't know if there's a usability difference between the two, or if there's one way a beginner should lean. I was hoping I might get some advice.

I just started reading High Power Rocketry, which I'm sure will have information I might need for a mid power motor, but I wanted to ask actual users what they thought.

Any advice, preferred brands, sizes I should look for, etc? I'm thinking I might even get something at the BuyMotors.com Black Friday sale, if I can make a decision by this weekend. Actually launching it, I'm not in a hurry - I plan on doing my homework before taking anything out on the field.

Thanks!
Click to expand...

Thanks for the post, I am asking the same questions.
I need advice for the experience users. I have 29mm builds in process and not sure where to go or what to do.
I don't have a Level #1, but would to get there someday. But would like to send something lean and mean high, or short fat and heavy low n slow.
But where does one start and what do they use?
I got a bud out on the West Coast that will launch what I build, but what do I build it for?
I'm with you brother, this will be interesting!
 
pyrobob said:
Aerotech has the same sort of method in their 'high power' 29mm hardware system as well as the 38mm and 54mm system. In the end, I suppose you could equate it to the time/cost/quality pyramid; with quality being approximate unity between the two.
Click to expand...

I'm looking at your site right now, specifically at the AeroTech 29/40-120 hardware. This sounds like it's the right size.

Does the 40-120 mean it takes a grain of anywhere from 40 to 120mm in length, and that that equates to higher impulse motors? Or is the 40-120 itself an impulse number?

I see what you mean about a tradeoff between hardware and propellant cost for Cesaroni. The hardware price is attractive - as well as the ease of build. But I feel like the AeroTech would save money in the long run. My gut is telling me maybe I want to go for AeroTech for my first casing.
 
lcorinth said:
Does the 40-120 mean it takes a grain of anywhere from 40 to 120mm in length, and that that equates to higher impulse motors? Or is the 40-120 itself an impulse number?
Click to expand...
Aerotech's nomenclature for their hardware is:

(diameter in mm)/(total impulse in N-s)

so a 29/40-120 case is 29mm diameter and can use reloads from 40-120 N-s in power. At larger sizes, they'll drop the range and list the "typical" (i.e., "maximum" ;)) impulse a case fits-- 54/2560, 98/15360, etc.

The 40-120 is a FANTASTIC starter case with one big caveat:

It's not compatible with the "high power-style" Aerotech/Dr. Rocket/Rouse-Tech hardware (29/60, 29/100, 29/120, 29/180, 29/240, 29/360).

That being said, I've flown the absolute pants off mine and heartily recommend it as a starter case for 29mm Aerotech reloads.
 
daveyfire said:
Aerotech's nomenclature for their hardware is:

(diameter in mm)/(total impulse in N-s)

so a 29/40-120 case is 29mm diameter and can use reloads from 40-120 N-s in power. At larger sizes, they'll drop the range and list the "typical" (i.e., "maximum" ;)) impulse a case fits-- 54/2560, 98/15360, etc.

The 40-120 is a FANTASTIC starter case with one big caveat:

It's not compatible with the "high power-style" Aerotech/Dr. Rocket/Rouse-Tech hardware (29/60, 29/100, 29/120, 29/180, 29/240, 29/360).

That being said, I've flown the absolute pants off mine and heartily recommend it as a starter case for 29mm Aerotech reloads.
Click to expand...

Now that I look closer, it says the 29/40-120 is available "for preorder only."

Does this mean they've stopped manufacturing them temporarily or something? I was all set to buy!
 
lcorinth said:
Now that I look closer, it says the 29/40-120 is available "for preorder only."

Does this mean they've stopped manufacturing them temporarily or something? I was all set to buy!
Click to expand...

Buy it from Wildman. .best prices on Hobbyline RMS everyday . He also has G reloads under $10.

If you do your motor shopping online HAZMAT becomes the big expense. Aerotech E G loads are NON HAZ if shipped USPS ..and the 24mm Fs but the 29mm Fs are HAZMAT. CTI, AT SU & DMS, ESTES E & Fs all require HAZMAT.

I now have the 24 / 40 and 24 / 60 case as well as the 29 / 40-120 case and try usually reorder Es 24mm Fs and Gs every couple of months.

Kenny
 
KenRico said:
Buy it from Wildman. .best prices on Hobbyline RMS everyday . He also has G reloads under $10.

If you do your motor shopping online HAZMAT becomes the big expense. Aerotech E G loads are NON HAZ if shipped USPS ..and the 24mm Fs but the 29mm Fs are HAZMAT. CTI, AT SU & DMS, ESTES E & Fs all require HAZMAT.

I now have the 24 / 40 and 24 / 60 case as well as the 29 / 40-120 case and try usually reorder Es 24mm Fs and Gs every couple of months.

Kenny
Click to expand...

I noticed that. Are there brick and mortar dealers where you can go buy without the hazmat charges? I assume that's for shipping purposes, right? Perhaps a road trip might be in order...

Edit: Oh, and I don't see the 29/40-120 casings on Wildman. Am I looking in the wrong place?
 
Last edited:
29/40-120 is the main casing for 29 mm mid-power rockets. If you have a small field might also consider some 24 mm composites for the PSII rockets, and definitely for the Big Dog. They're still thrustier than the 29 mm Estes BP motors, although check those out for the Big Dog. If with a club, you may also go bigger, when certifying is a chance to go for the CTI cert special.

I don't consider reloading much trouble if I can pre-load or sit and watch other people fly rockets, but it still takes time (and this will affect you more as a beginner). I don't like to try for more than 3 loadings, or 2 loadings and 4 cleanings, on the field. So there's still a place for some single-use motor flying.
 
Most AT 29mm reloads do not have hazmat fees (except for F's) they can be USPS ground shipping. Also the Econojet F motors can be shipped USPS ground. This is perfect timing as a number of vendors will have motors on sale this weekend.
Mr. Bob
County line Hobbies
Grovertown, IN.
574-540-1123
[email protected]
www.countylinehobbied.com
 
Last edited:
lcorinth said:
I'm looking at your site right now, specifically at the AeroTech 29/40-120 hardware. This sounds like it's the right size.

Does the 40-120 mean it takes a grain of anywhere from 40 to 120mm in length, and that that equates to higher impulse motors? Or is the 40-120 itself an impulse number?

I see what you mean about a tradeoff between hardware and propellant cost for Cesaroni. The hardware price is attractive - as well as the ease of build. But I feel like the AeroTech would save money in the long run. My gut is telling me maybe I want to go for AeroTech for my first casing.
Click to expand...

Exactly as David said in Post #10.

On a side note, It will be more than worth your while to subscribe to our mailing list....
 
lcorinth said:
Now that I look closer, it says the 29/40-120 is available "for preorder only."

Does this mean they've stopped manufacturing them temporarily or something? I was all set to buy!
Click to expand...

Hi Daniel. I have several, I was just holding off making them available until Black Friday.... Did I just say that aloud, or think it.... (anyone know that quote?)
 
pyrobob said:
Exactly as David said in Post #10.

On a side note, It will be more than worth your while to subscribe to our mailing list....
Click to expand...

I have subscribed, actually. At first, it was just out of curiosity, but now I'm getting into mid power territory, so your products are what I'm looking at buying.
 
For me, like many others, Aerotech E, F, and G single use and reloads are the gateway to composites, high power, and nirvana. :) Not to slight CTI, and Loki but this is what I fly most. Here are some places on the web where I have found useful information about composites and reloads. (in no particular order)


Tim Van Milligan has put a wealth of info on his web site; a great resource.
https://www.apogeerockets.com/Tech/How_Composite_Rocket_Engines_Work

Another asset to the community is John Coker's site. The Choosing Motors video is not about composites per se but I think you will find it a great aid when you need to decide what to fly on what.
https://www.jcrocket.com/choosing-motors.shtml

This aerotech site has a good FAQ I think.
https://www.valuerockets.com/default.aspx

How to assemble a Aerotech 24mm reload by TRFer gdjsky01.
[video=youtube;8kcEe55rt5M]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kcEe55rt5M[/video]
 
Last edited:
there is no reason not to start with single use motors. you can get them for cheaper than a CTI reload. and they work great! the F27 and F42's are my favorites in 29mm. I use CTI because my club's on site vendor sells them. I also have the AT 29/40-120 which has the cheapest reloads you can get, and lots of them ship without hazmat.
 
I started with composites in 2003, got an Aerotech 24/40 and 29/40-120. I'm too cheap to fly SU if I can fly a cheaper reload instead. I do fly some single use just because I try to buy something from our on-site vendor at every launch. I figure if I don't support him, he won't be there when I need him.

I would recommend everyone get at least one 24/40 and one 29/40-120 case. The 24/40 can be used in any rocket set up for Estes D motors and the only modification is usually filing down the forward end of the motor hook so the delay grain part of the case fits through the thrust ring. If you've never flown a F24W in a rocket you usually fly D12-3s in, you are in for some fun and maybe a long walk.

Don't be intimidated by the motor assembly process. It is not that hard. The instructions are clear, if not the easiest to follow, but there are always other people at launches that are happy, even eager, to help if you have questions. With that said, I've assembled hundreds of the Hobbyline cases over the last 11 years and I still refer to the instructions. I have a mental block about what size o-ring goes where. I always double check.

Using the Hobbyline reloads do more for you then just learning to assemble reloads. They teach you how to fly your field. When you have a variety of reloads available for a case, you start to think about the flight profiles each provides. Which ones will allow easy recovery and which ones are going to give you a long walk. If you are flying at a HPR event, the field is usually large enough you can fly anything you want, but weather, ceiling, terrain, wind strength and direction all start playing a part. Getting this experience with the E-G range reloads is a great way to gain experience and confidence when you want to move up to the L1 range of motors. In my case, I flew 29/40-120 cases for 5 years in L1 capable rocket so when I went to L1, I jumped straight into 38mm and Dual Deployment and had no problems with that.

As for CTI, I had all my Aerotech 29mm, 38mm & some 54mm hardware before CTI really became available. I do fly a Pro54 6GXL case, but I don't own any of the smaller cases so I have no experience with them. I have observed over the years that CTI doesn't seem to be any more reliable than Aerotech when it comes to the number of CATOs experienced. They both have issues from time to time.

Go the composite route, SU, Aerotech, CTI, or others, you'll love it.
 
samb said:
For me, like many others, Aerotech E, F, and G single use and reloads are the gateway to composites, high power, and nirvana. :) Not to slight CTI, and Loki but this is what I fly most. Here are some places on the web where I have found useful information about composites and reloads. (in no particular order)

Info Central is now an orphaned site but I think it has a lot of good information. Some of the vendors mentioned may be gone however.
https://www.info-central.org/?article=215

Tim Van Milligan has put a wealth of info on his web site; a great resource.
https://www.apogeerockets.com/Tech/How_Composite_Rocket_Engines_Work

Another asset to the community is John Coker's site. The Choosing Motors video is not about composites per se but I think you will find it a great aid when you need to decide what to fly on what.
https://www.jcrocket.com/choosing-motors.shtml

This aerotech site has a good FAQ I think.
https://www.valuerockets.com/default.aspx

How to assemble a Aerotech 24mm reload by TRFer gdjsky01.
[video=youtube;8kcEe55rt5M]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kcEe55rt5M[/video]
Click to expand...

Thanks, very helpful to a beginner.
 
I would recommend the CTI 29mm 3 grain. Yes it is pricier than Aerotech but they are much more simpler to put together and its a simple way to be introduced to reloadable composites in my opinion. Why the 3 grain? As previously mentioned CTI has spacers so you can put smaller grain motors in the larger casing which is useful. That way you could fly anything from an F to a small H for your level one. I have flown an Estes Ventris successfully on an H87 in that case and boy did that give it some giddy up.
 
Early on (2000) I flew some Aerotech single use composite motors before trying a 24mm reload case. Moved on to the 29 40-120 case, I have three, and never looked back. Those 29 40-120 cases got me through some tough times when money was tight but I still wanted to feed my AP habit.
Personally I fly both AT and CTI depending on my mood and/or availability.
Have fun.
 
A 29/40-120 is bar none, the most bang for the buck case out there. $10 reloads for G76G's? Yes please. https://www.hobbylinc.com/aerotech-g76-7g-29:40-reload-motor-kit-g-rms-model-rocket-engine-77507

For low cost per flight, and variety, it's hard to beat. Takes reloads from E though G. E16W, E23T, F22J, F40W, F52T, G53FJ, G64W, (G71R if you can find one) G76G, and after you get L1, the monster G138T (157N!!!!)

I have a serious G76G addiction.

8686831825_7169cf73c6.jpg


For single use, the econojets are great (F20W, F23FJ, F27R, F42T). I've flown a bunch of them... The F42T may not have a lot of flame...but it PUNCHES rockets into the air. My favorite by far.

F23FJ, F42T crushing a pad, F20W
5922469272_bcdfa8da1d.jpg
6166392145_f732450d8d.jpg
6166393075_dbaafc2c37.jpg
6233011058_ef7b2948b5.jpg
 
Last edited:
As others have said, the Aerotech RMS line gives you the most bang for the buck! I have all the regular hobby line cases, 18/20, 24/40, 24/60 & 29/4-120, most in multiples so I can pre-load them before going to a launch. Though I still fly single use from time to time. One of the LPR clubs I go to doesn't allow you to pre-load. All motors must be checked in before you launch. Here in California, all motors must be classified and marked by the State Fire Marshal. AT reloads are marked in the package unlike BP motors. SU motors are a bit handier than reloads especially when I have kids with me. I usually keep AT E20s in my range box. They don't cost much more than E18 24/40 RMS reloads and will fly most of my lighter 29mm birds with an adapter.

Rocketry is my "crack" habit. I now have all the AT cases from 18mm-38mm as well as CTI 24mm-38mm. When I go to the big HPR club to launch I can launch any of my rockets on whatever the onsite vendors have available! It's a slipper slope... and "I've fallen and can't get up!" lol

Enjoy!

Jerome :)
 

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