Containing Smokeless Powders

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Series9

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So I have a friend who is an avid shooter and he gave me a "mixed bag" of smokeless powder. Basically, leftovers from reloading.

I have 260g of the stuff and I'm experimenting with it for possible recovery system uses.

I started by placing a little bit in a folded piece of paper and lighting it to see how energetic it is. Not very.

Then a small contained charge of about .5g. Not too impressive.

Then a 5g charge taped up. Still not sure.

My question: How do you guys contain this stuff to make a better "boom"?

I have to put a charge in a rocket to see, but I'm not too impressed so far.

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Playing with it now.

A charge like the blue one in the first post barely popped the nose cone off the payload bay of a Quasar (2.1"x12")


Then I had an idea to use an expended Estes casing. The nose went about 15'. Better.

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Just curious, if it does work how come we don't hear more about it? It's more widely available, easier to buy & not restricted like BP?
 
Not all Smokeless powders are useful for ejection charges, some are. The ones that are (I used to use PyrodexP) required containment. To contain mine I used pvc encaps with 2 electrical tape crossovers on the opening. Works fine.

Now you have heard more about it.:wink:

I prefer BP because of one less requirement to get it to work. But if I can't get BP someday I will fly Pyrodex without any qualms.
 
Not all Smokeless powders are useful for ejection charges, some are. The ones that are (I used to use PyrodexP) required containment. To contain mine I used pvc encaps with 2 electrical tape crossovers on the opening. Works fine.

Now you have heard more about it.:wink:

I prefer BP because of one less requirement to get it to work. But if I can't get BP someday I will fly Pyrodex without any qualms.

I too have done it this way and it seems to work just fine as far as ejecting the laundry was concerned. One problem I had was that the PVC cap obviously went ballistic in the airframe. I built a testbed rocket for sugar motors out of thick carpet tube. On recovery, I could see a bulge in the shape of the cap's edge protruding out of the THICK tube :eek:. From then on, I made sure the charge was held longitudinally with the airframe and resting on the top CR.
 
Not all Smokeless powders are useful for ejection charges, some are. The ones that are (I used to use PyrodexP) required containment. To contain mine I used pvc encaps with 2 electrical tape crossovers on the opening. Works fine.

Now you have heard more about it.:wink:

I prefer BP because of one less requirement to get it to work. But if I can't get BP someday I will fly Pyrodex without any qualms.

Pyrodex P is the BP Equivalent for shooting Black Powder Pistols.
The OP has been given Smokeless Powder of the Type used to load Modern Cartridges.
Two entirely different Worlds apart as far as how they deflagrate.
 
BP is better than Smokeless (modern rifle/pistol) powders because it burns explosively (aka instantly) without much confinement. Smokeless powders on the other hand can produce much higher pressures (iirc 45,000psi max for BP) of over 60,000 psi but their burn rate is dependent on confinement and pressure, the better the confinement the higher the pressures which is preferable in guns. If you put a string of Smokeless Powder on an open area, maybe a line 6 inches long its will take a few seconds to burn that length (and it will be slow), now to the end of that line add a line of BP so that the Smokeless powder ignites the BP and you will see the BP burns almost instantly (all of it). BP is an explosive and Smokeless a Flammable material. Pyrodex is only a substitute for BP, ATF treats it just the same as BP. However Pyrodex does require some confinement and is slightly harder than BP to ignite. Smokeless powders advantages are pretty much smokeless, higher pressure when confined, and less corrosive to metals, its burn rates can also be controlled by inhibitors and powder grain shape, again the ability to vary the burn rate is great for guns, where lots of variables come into play (the gun, the shell casing, primers, bullet shape and weight, the powder itself, all affect how the ammunition performs).

The best thing to do with the "mixed" powder is to pour it into a long line about a 1/4" to 1/2" wide outside and light it, mixed powders are dangerous. Be safe, for rocketry BP is safer than Smokeless.
 
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Pyrodex is only a substitute for BP, ATF treats it just the same as BP.

Please supply a reference for this statement. AFAIK Pyrodex is not classified as an explosive by the ATF, does not require magazine storage or a LEUP or LEDP to possess and distribute.
 
I've heard that it is unreliable under 2 gms.
I have used 777 alternative but, need more use; to determine if it's practical or not.


JD
 
Please supply a reference for this statement. AFAIK Pyrodex is not classified as an explosive by the ATF, does not require magazine storage or a LEUP or LEDP to possess and distribute.

For now I can provide a previous link to a person I know has much more experience on BP/Pyrodex this link is to an old post, specifically look at PowderBurners responses. https://www.rocketryforum.com/archive/index.php/t-4768.html

I will find the actual ATF info.
 
I will check with my local friendly ATF agent also. If this is true than all the Gander Mtn and similar stores I visit that openly stock PyrodexP on the shelves are in violation of federal explosives laws (which i doubt).
 
For now I can provide a previous link to a person I know has much more experience on BP/Pyrodex this link is to an old post, specifically look at PowderBurners responses. https://www.rocketryforum.com/archive/index.php/t-4768.html

I will find the actual ATF info.

I know that's true because I have bought both GOEX BP & Pyrodex from same gun shop and when I buy the BP, I have to show ID, it gets logged in book and it's stored in safe whereas when I have bought the Pyrodex, there were no questions asked and it's kept on shelf in store.
 
From chuckhawks.com

"[Pyrodex] is classified as a smokeless powder by the DOT, and bears little resemblance to traditional black powder in actual weight or grain size. It is a bit harder to ignite than black powder, and is safer to handle, use, and store due to this fact. It is also not as impact-sensitive as is true black powder. Pyrodex is not classified as an explosive as is black powder, and is sold at many chain stores due to this fact."
 
https://www.federalregister.gov/art...s-2014-annual-list-of-explosive-materials#h-7

Sorry but it's true. Black powder substitutes was added to the BATFE explosives list in 2013..... Smokeless powers is also on the 2014 explosives list and has been for a while.

Black powder, black powder substitutes and smokeless powders are exempted from BATFE control when used for reloading by federal statute....so get a gun and a reloading kit so you can have up to 50 pounds of unregulated material in you possession without an explosives permit....or a magazine.......

Bob
 
Nice hijack guys.

Anyway, I'm going to dispose of this stuff. Not right for this job.
 
I'm sure it wasn't purposely. Just one thing led to another. Anyhow, I still learned that you can use smokeless powder for DD as an alternative but with more ground testing.
 
So I have a friend who is an avid shooter and he gave me a "mixed bag" of smokeless powder. Basically, leftovers from reloading.
To the OP, can you clarify which powders these are?

If it is a mixed bag of modern 'smokeless' powders that are used for rifle, pistol loading that are NOT Black Powder substitutes, then IMHO the best thing you can do is burn it.
(If it is true modern powder, and it is a mix, you cannot reliably categorize its burn rates and each scoop will have different characteristics depending upon how much of which different powders were in it)

If it a bag of mixed Black Powder substitutes, then again, my suggestion is to burn it, for the same reasons, it is mixed and each scoop will have different amounts of each powder.

Yup, the word to look at in the original post is MIXED.

Whether it is BP subs (Pyrodex, 777, etc), or modern 'smokeless reloading powder' you are still working with an unknown, and therefore in my opinion, nearly useless for deployment etc. (and maybe dangerous too!)

A few bucks for a 1lb can of true BP is much cheaper than a trip to the ER.

Sorry if this sounds like a rant. I reload BP, BP subs, and modern powders. I am extremely careful (safety) when it comes to this stuff.
 
Funny - when I read "mixed bag", I didn't take it literally. Now I realize it's truly a 'mixed bag'. I'm glad to hear you've opted to toss it. You'll be much happier, and safer, using BP
 
Hi

New here but was involved in HPR in 2001. (I had a NAR Level 1)

I am just wondering, what if you pasted your ejection canister in gummed tape similar to fireworks shell, so that you can increase its confinement, or simply get small firework shell round hemis (the paper ball halves used for making firework shells), put your smokeless in it, and then paste it. It provides a lot of confinement and I'm wondering if it would be enough for ejection.

Also I don't know the rocketry code legalities well enough but is it against the safety code if you brought black powder ingredients to the launch site, made it on site (you wouldn't need a lot so a mortar and pestle would work), and granulated it then used it. It would get around ATF regulations for sure.
 
https://www.federalregister.gov/art...s-2014-annual-list-of-explosive-materials#h-7

Sorry but it's true. Black powder substitutes was added to the BATFE explosives list in 2013..... Smokeless powers is also on the 2014 explosives list and has been for a while.

Black powder, black powder substitutes and smokeless powders are exempted from BATFE control when used for reloading by federal statute....so get a gun and a reloading kit so you can have up to 50 pounds of unregulated material in you possession without an explosives permit....or a magazine.......

Bob

Thanks Bob, I made my earlier post and then had to run off to work, and wasn't able to get back until now. Looks like you solved that issue. Thank you.
 
To the OP, can you clarify which powders these are?

If it is a mixed bag of modern 'smokeless' powders that are used for rifle, pistol loading that are NOT Black Powder substitutes, then IMHO the best thing you can do is burn it.
(If it is true modern powder, and it is a mix, you cannot reliably categorize its burn rates and each scoop will have different characteristics depending upon how much of which different powders were in it)

If it a bag of mixed Black Powder substitutes, then again, my suggestion is to burn it, for the same reasons, it is mixed and each scoop will have different amounts of each powder.

Yup, the word to look at in the original post is MIXED.

Whether it is BP subs (Pyrodex, 777, etc), or modern 'smokeless reloading powder' you are still working with an unknown, and therefore in my opinion, nearly useless for deployment etc. (and maybe dangerous too!)

A few bucks for a 1lb can of true BP is much cheaper than a trip to the ER.

Sorry if this sounds like a rant. I reload BP, BP subs, and modern powders. I am extremely careful (safety) when it comes to this stuff.

+1, I reload for over 20 rifle and pistol cartridges, some for competition, varmiting, and general big and small game, lots of experience loading Smokeless and some experience with BP cartridge rifles. BP is definitely the best for what we do, even though Pyrodex and Triple 7 make good subs.
 
BP is better than Smokeless (modern rifle/pistol) powders because it burns explosively (aka instantly) without much confinement...

While you are basically right, your statement needs some tuning.

BP does not explode. It deflagrates. That is a technical term that the pressure wave stays below the speed of sound. Furthermore, not all BP deflagrates at the same rate. BP ffff burns more quickly than the BP ff, because of the differing grain geometry and how they interact with each other in close proximity.

C4, RDX, and PETN explode, in that they generate a shock wave. There is a big difference in how a 1 gram of BP behaves than 1 gram of those other three. One will deploy your recovery gear and the others will turn your rocket into confetti.

Smokeless powders have varying rates of deflagration based upon the intended application. Generally, pistol powders burn faster than rifle powders.

Greg
 
It makes no sense to detonate 1 gram of C4, C4 requires a blasting cap to set it off (otherwise it just burns very slowly... impact, bullet hit, or fire will not cause it to explode). The blasting cap required will contain more than 1 gram of high explosives for sure. PETN might detonate in that quantity however since it's a bit more sensitive.

One HE that may work is sodium azide, however in addition to being sensitive it is also very toxic. Airbags use them but they are mixed with other things to ensure that no sodium azide or other hazardous reaction products (such as sodium) remains once the airbag deploys.

I'm still wondering about confining smokeless ejection charge by pasting it with gum tape or glue soaked kraft paper... it would create a really hard outer shell to confine the powder, just like blank ammunition.
 
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IMHO, flash is WAY to sensitive to be used in rocketry. BP can be bought in one pound cans and is fairly stable. You could not get me within 50 feet of a one pound can of flash.

I don't know enough about sodium azide to comment, other than to say that usually it is not a good idea to use toxic substances when non-toxic compositions work well enough.

Greg
 
IMHO, flash is WAY to sensitive to be used in rocketry. BP can be bought in one pound cans and is fairly stable. You could not get me within 50 feet of a one pound can of flash.

I don't know enough about sodium azide to comment, other than to say that usually it is not a good idea to use toxic substances when non-toxic compositions work well enough.

Greg

I do not think you can legally store loose flash in a magazine even with a permit. At least that this what I remember reading a few years ago.
 
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