Internal Fillets on TTW Fins

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enderw88

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External fillets serve to reduce interference drag and add strength to the fin-body tube joint. I have seen lots of examples of people using fillet from the fin to the motor tube on TTW designs. On Level 1+ airframes does anyone use use fillets on the internal side of the fin-body tube joint? See the question marks in the diagram below. I seems like there could be some pretty good stress risers at the joint there leading to cracking up through the external fillet.

Fillet Question.png
 
I add small fillets to the inside of the fin-body tube joint as well. I overbuild though.
 
External fillets serve to reduce interference drag"

I would dispute that. Unless you have a corresponding dillet in the airframe to reduce the large step in cross-sectional area, external fillets probably increase drag.
 
I would dispute that. Unless you have a corresponding dillet in the airframe to reduce the large step in cross-sectional area, external fillets probably increase drag.

The drag increase due to the the greater frontal area from a fillet is usually more than offset by the reduction in interference drag that comes from a sharp angle where the fin enters the body. There are some good graphs showing this effect in Hoerner. The effect is bigger at larger Reynold's numbers but should hold here. I will try to track down the figures this evening.
 
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While I'm not prepared to take on the drag discussion, I would recommend internal fillets in all TTW designs. It has been argued that fin attachment strength isn't helped much by filleting every surface the fins pass through/contact. That isn't, however, why it should be done. The internal fillet completes the structural tie among the fins, centering rings, airframe, and motor tube at the very point where the airframe has been weakened by the slot cut for the fins. Weight is easily controlled by the use of micro balloons or other filler when bonding with epoxy, or Titebond in controlled amounts. The technique was developed to provide maximum strength in the area most subject to stress failure whether it's the fin attachment or airframe weakening for the slot. It is a way to overcome material weakness without having to resort to material over use.
 
The drag increase due to the the greater frontal area from a fillet is usually more than offset by the reduction in interference drag that comes from a sharp angle where the fin enters the body. There are some good graphs showing this effect in Hoerner. The effect is bigger at larger Reynold's numbers but should hold here. I will try to track down the figures this evening.

Looking in Hoerner's drag book, chapter 8, section 4 now. Thank you for bringing it to my attention, although I admit it leaves my flabber a bit gasted, because it seems to run counter to a fair amount of research I was involved with, albeit mostly with sailboats. Let's just say that sailboat people are even more crazy about drag reduction than airplane people and rocket people, both above and below the waterline, and we never found fillets of the magnitude called for in Hoerner to be advantageous, even across a fairly wide range of Reynold's numbers.

Looking at Figure 23 and the accompanying section, it seems to indicate that the interference drag is negligible (and by extrapolation negative, which I find hard to fathom) for sections with t/c ratios below 8%, which would certainly apply to most rocket fins. Or am I reading that wrong? Most of Hoerner's discussion seems to focus on the junctions of strut sections with a t/c between 0.1 and 0.3 or so.
 
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Adding internal fillets is a VERY common practice! I would have guessed it is more common than not by how often it is discussed or mentioned in build threads. Forces on the exposed fin, especially something like a hard landing impact, can make the fin want to rotate around the point where it goes though the airframe wall, and that can cause the fin tab to tear loose from the body motor tube. Then you have a much weaker, wobbly fin attachment. Adding an internal fillet helps to bond the fin tab to the motor tube.

To add internal fillets, do not glue the aft centering ring in place when you assemble the motor mount or glue the motor mount into the body tube. Instead, dry fit the aft centering ring, and use it to help position the motor mount straight in the body tube when gluing in the motor mount. But leave the aft CR unglued, and add some tape tabs or something else to allow you to pull it back out ofter the motor-mount glue sets up. Once the motor mount is glued, pull out the aft centering ring, and glue in the fins. Having that aft centering ring out gives you access to the inside of the fin can, and you can add your internal fillets. When I've done this, I've added fillets between every joint that the fin tab touches inside the fin can --- the BT and tab on the inside, the centering ring and the tab, the motor mont and the tab. AFter that, glue in the aft centering ring with glue joints between the aft CR, bottom of the fin tab, body tube and motor tube. Now THATS a bulletproof fin can!
 
While I'm not prepared to take on the drag discussion, I would recommend internal fillets in all TTW designs.

Are you specifically recommending all 4 internal fillets on each fin? I have never seen anyone mention the positions I have as question marks in the diagram above.
 
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While I'm not prepared to take on the drag discussion, I would recommend internal fillets in all TTW designs. /QUOTE]

Are you specifically recommending all 4 internal fillets on each fin? I have never seen anyone mention the positions I have as question marks in the diagram above.

I am definitely a practitioner of internal fillets in those areas specifically.
 
Thanks for all the replies. The consensus seem to be that the internal fin-bt joint should be filleted for structural reasons.

I am interested in the drag discussion but we should make it a separate thread as it could become religious
 
Yes. The effect is six fillets per fin (outer airframe, inner airframe & motor tube, both sides of the fin.) Don't forget to fillet both sandwiching centering rings to the airframe, fins and motor tube.

Are you specifically recommending all 4 internal fillets on each fin? I have never seen anyone mention the positions I have as question marks in the diagram above.
 
I can assure you that the drag discussion will not become religious on my part...There is a lot in that Hoerner book, so it is possible I am missing something important.
 
I can assure you that the drag discussion will not become religious on my part...There is a lot in that Hoerner book, so it is possible I am missing something important.

I will start a new thread this evening when I can dig the book out. I have experienced the Americas cup hull designer level of effort on drag reduction. It is intense.
 
I will start a new thread this evening when I can dig the book out. I have experienced the Americas cup hull designer level of effort on drag reduction. It is intense.

Yes, please do I am looking forward to learning something one way or another. Sounds like you have the same sort of experience at the alter of the Auld Mug that I do.


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also a system I like is Wildmans injected fillets which are done before adding the outside fillets and all Centering rings can be in place already.
 
There's also foaming the fin can. Its sort of like "total internal fillets".

s6

And here I was thinking that I'd probably do internal fillets and foam the fin can given the right rocket. I'm a firm believer in making sure that my best work goes into what I'm building, and it stays that way (but still be airworthy).
 
Great thread from days gone by...

Is there a suggested good practice in regard to the size of the internal fillets? Something like "The fillet radius should be 2X the fin thickness"?

010.JPG
 
Great thread from days gone by...

Is there a suggested good practice in regard to the size of the internal fillets? Something like "The fillet radius should be 2X the fin thickness"?

View attachment 547122
None afaik, and unless reinforced internals really dont add much except weight. Instead of internal fillets I use either fin pockets (which adds lots of reinforcement for minimal weight when done correctly), or just double dip the root edge (dip, insert fin, remove fin, re- dip root edge, re-insert fin and lock in position till dried/cured) double dipping helps ensure a full root glue bond.
 
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