Push the limits?

Hello All!

I'm posting here because I'm in one of those life-situations where I can't tell if I'm looking into the Abyss or just staring at a wall with my eyes closed. Don't worry, this is totally rocket related, not spam. But it will probably be a bit wordy.:eyeroll:

I'm thinking I'm SUPPOSED to build more rockets, but I'm not sure if this is just another passing whim, which I must admit happens, I have a spare bedroom full of junk to prove it. Through my life the only "hobby" that has been consistent has been Full Size Jeeps. You know, the ones that were BIG from the factory, like the Gladiator trucks and Grand Wagoneers. But there was a time, before puberty, back in the 1980s when I was all about rockets! I saved my allowance to buy Estes kits and bigger and bigger motors to compete with my cousins in who could build the coolest or highest flying rocket. Once I hit puberty I became all about cars and girls, so rockets were left by the wayside.

So here it is 25 years later. I'm 35, I've found my dream girl (a 6 foot redhead Environmental Engineer) and built my dream car (a 1979 Jeep J-10), and I'm an Automation Engineer for a specialized materials company (a big one, seriously, our stuff is on Mars, in your cell phone, in the monitor you're reading this on, in every single soda fountain in the world, etc). I was given the task of finding Christmas presents for an 8 year old and 10 year old boys, nephew-in-laws, if that's even a thing. I though back to that age in my life and what I loved; Rockets. When I was that age you could launch rockets in any reasonable sized lot or city park in western Colorado and the only thing anyone would say is "wow! that's really neat kid!". Since I haven't seen a rocket launched in a public park since I got out of the military, I wasn't sure rockets were still a thing or if they'd been regulated out of existence.

In my research (it started as just youtube videos, which is why I have to admit that this might just be a whim) I see that hobby rocketry has gone well beyond anything I ever dreamed it would, people are hitting 60 miles AGL, with on board video cameras to boot! This lead me to get in touch with a local rocketry club, Northern Colorado Rocketry, and I ALMOST made it to a launch with another local club, CRASH (Colorado Rocketeers And Space Hobbyists), but unfortunately got stuck "watching the purse" for a 5 hour shopping session on Saturday instead. Needless to say, all the kids in my life already have rockets for Christmas, except my dad (a big kid in his own right) who insisted on a quadcopter.

Now I've got rockets on my brain, and let me tell you what really interests me. Well, except for the obvious: I want to put something beyond the atmosphere. As I've been day dreaming and researching, what I want to do is make a rocket land safely exactly where I expect it to, consistently. I'm an Automation Engineer. This may be out of my wheelhouse, but if so, it's immediately adjacent to my wheelhouse! Think about it, we've all seen the videos of amateur rockets leaving the atmosphere, as things get smaller and smaller as the rocket ascends, but every single one only shows the DECENT until the whole mess starts spinning and swinging so bad the camera can't keep a single image in frame. Imagine an up and down video that is smooth, uncut, and ends with the launchpad in frame. That would be epic.

So the two questions I'm wrestling with are, do I owe my 12 year old self fulfillment of ambitions forgotten for over 20 years? And if so, where do I start? I heartily subscribe to the scientific method so I need to start from a known point, but would that be rebuilding the last rocket I ever flew? Or is it to build the most advanced pre-engineered kit that's within my scope?

I've puked this out of my brain and on to the interwebs because I'm earnestly interested in some external influence here. If you've the constitution to read through this entire post, then anything you have to offer in opinions or experience are of value to me. Please feel free to tell me what you would do in my shoes! Thanks for reading!

Matt

Hi, welcome to the forum. it is said that every journey starts with but a single step...right, suggestions. I would suggest that you start small(ish) with something like a baby bertha to get back into the groove of building/flying, and you might want to look into the 'NARTREK' program(https://www.nar.org/) to re-acquaint/acquire the basics. would also suggest that you down load OpenRocket (design software). and basically ask questions (we do like photos too ).
Rex

Welcome to TRF, Matt! Well, you can check the box you can label "Starting Point". This is a great resource of combined knowledge, experience, reference materials and plain know how. As one (ex) engineer to another, let's begin with an inventory:
1)You 've already flown rockets (+2 points)
2)You've certainly passed the hand/eye coordination test (+5 points)
3)You survived puberty AND Girls (+15 points!)
4)You obviously have the capability of scientific investigation based on your current job skills set (+20 points)
5)You have reached out to a local club (or at least located them) (+5 points)
6) You have honestly admitted shortfalls in your experience level (+50 points)
7) You(and your significant other) have a decent job to fund your dream (all the other points you could possibly want/need!)
So-all in all, you have a pretty good fighting chance to realize your dream.
Now, the reality check:
Exoatmospheric flight is extremely expensive-heartbreakingly so. Material engineering for the stresses involved not only encompass strength and durability, the aerodynamic requirements are at odds against you from the start. Mach flight to break the chains of gravity impose a confounding amount tradeoffs where aeroheating and survivability are at odds. The stronger you build, the more mass, the more mass, the more propellant needed, etc. This is cubic dollars. Away from the pure mental bubble gum you will need to chew are the realities and confines of this sport.
1) The FAA really doesn't want you littering flight corridors for our 'friendly skies" guys as they get upset seeing missile exhaust off the port wing at 30k+! You will need a waiver for this flight even if you can construct your vehicle.
2) Keep in mind the moment your rocket leaves the ground, the Rocket Gods are in charge. You'll need some weather-wise advice for upper air conditions
3) While in the air, the world keeps turning, lengthening your recovery track.
4) One of the most inhospitable areas in the United States will be your friend, whether it's Black Rock or White Sands, even the Great Salt Lake.
5) The road to failure is littered with success, and that, my friend is the essence of adventure and learning. Rocketry has something for everyone. At every level.
Matt-do what you need to do to acquire the experience and wherewithal to reach your dream. We are all here, not to tell you how to do it and certainly not to discourage you in your dream, but to contribute what you can build on from our collective minds and experiences. Many, many much more experienced and 'serious' hobby fliers will add to this as well as opinions (vetted or not) and some frighteningly good research science I am certain will be posted. Nothing is impossible, given drive, inspiration, encouragement and....money! Welcome, Matt, to the roosting place of some of America's finest birdmen.

Thanks for the warm welcome guys!

Rex, everyone likes pictures, but since I don't have any rocket pics, here's some randoms.:wink:

Dream girl


Dream car


I appreciate your input guys. I've been mulling it over since well before I posted last night and I think it's worth a small investment just to wet my pallet. Northern Colorado Rocketry has a scheduled launch for the 6th and I've already told my better half I want to attend. The more I read and interact with you rocketeers, the more I want to play too. I think I'll pick up a kit to build as-designed in the hopes of launching that day. I have to crawl before I walk, walk before I run, and run before I fly (I added that last part to the idiom ). Building a kit rocket will proof my craftsmanship and provide the baseline to serve as a control for experimental development. I'll try to find something that could serve for level 1 certification after I crawl a bit, and probably in the 3" body diameter range so that there's room for future arduino or Pi based avionics as I learn to walk and run a little bit.

Fireworks ( I see what you did with your name there!), thanks, your analytical breakdown was especially influential.

Any recommendations for a born again first rocket? I like the Estes Leviathan, but apogeerockets has quite a few that look a little more robust as well, mostly mimicking military missiles.

well, since you seem to be wanting to leap into rockets with both feet...you might want to consider a Wildman rocket https://www.wildmanrocketry.com/ Tim has a number of smaller birds (minis, sport, and jart). not to mention that a number of venders are having sales next week.
Rex

Matt-dang son! you learn really fast! Really nice pics! Heck- you are halfway there already with a support crew AND a recovery vehicle. I'm with Rex-wait for the Wildman Black Saturday sale. F/G birds take an amazing amount of punishment ( I dropped one from 4k and did it again from 5k until I dialed in the recovery train!) and huge g loads. It's much harder to shred than a paper bird. Don't get me wrong- we all flew M's in cardboard and wood back in the day. (Okay not me-part of the deal with the Viking Princess to allow me into the sport. She saw a buddy write a check for two motors for more than our mortgage and then the bargaining began...). Don't misunderstand me, there is NOTHING wrong with Estes or Apogee or anything else-as long as it's a ROCKET! Straight smoke and good chutes, brother-welcome to the smoke!

Matt:
First Welcome to the forum, and Back to Model or whatever size Rocketry you decide to get into.
I'm a 100% with everything Fyrwrxz posted!

One thing he did forget to mention is NO One in Model, High Power or even Ameteur rocketry has to date actually put a payload outside the the 50mile "near Space" limit.

I personally do not think an individual will want to spend the money, Time or heartache dealing with the various agencies necessary to do such a project, I have a group of friends who expressed and interest in such a project but getting all the governement permissions, licenced, clearances etc. along with the estimated several hundred thousand dollar from each partner financing just made it impossible for me to invest in what has taken REAL rocket scientists with Orbital Science and Applied Composites more the 20years to get close to.
That is not to say don't try to follow your dream, instead temper it with that cold dose of reality that most of us will never make it quite to Space but can still put a few very nice holes in the sky

As my TRF handle implies I've gone from model rocketry to larger MPR Mid-power to the opposite side Micro Model Rocketry. it's just as fulfilling was anything else I've done. Kind of keep in mind 100ft, 1000ft or 100,000ft out of sight is still "out of sight"

PS: Very nice readhead by the way

Hey Matt!

Welcome, don't forget to check out us in Pueblo! S.C.O.R.E https://scronline.net/

Thanks again guys!

I wouldn't say "jumping in with both feet" just yet, haha! What's on paper isn't whats coming out of my wallet at this time, but more on what has come out of my wallet in a minute. Huge thanks to RocketRob for the link! I saw SCOREs launches on the NAR state calender but hadn't seen your website yet.

But I know what my first born again rocket is going to be, after loosing my cool like Citizen Kane over his dumb sled at the hobby store. I saw my last rocket from 25 years ago and it came back so vivid I got all misty in public, and I avoid doing that. I bought it at R/C Hobbies in Grand Junction and launched it at the park in Eagle Colorado. I even remember the store in Eagle where I bought the motors, it was called "The Nearly Everything Store". It was my first staged rocket, the Starloader. I tried getting creative and thought I modified it to pop the cone off of the payload bay and release a "pooper-trooper" (little rubber army guy with a parachute) while deploying it's own parachute. The hole I drilled (with the leather reamer on my swiss army knife) apparently wasn't big enough because it didn't pop the cone, instead blowing out the tube and tumbling down.

In a moment of emotional lunacy I decided that I can't proceed until I get that one right, so I bought it. I'm going to build it, and I need to find a pooper trooper.

Oh yeah, I was only in the Hobby store because I don't like giving gifts with a price, so those nephew-in-laws I bought rockets for, I was just picking up wadding and motors. I'll update this with some pics in a bit, but right now I got some sanding a gluing to do.:grin:

One of the most important things is to get the SWMBO (she who must be obeyed) involved, since shes an engineer type too that might be doable. Rocketry is definitely more fun as a family event (my 5 year old daughter has a blast). Welcome back to Rocketry. BTW seeing that beautiful Jeep reminds me of my Uncles late 70s Jeep Honcho version of the same truck iirc.

Welcome Matt.
Love your truck!
And the color, Desert Sand?
Camo for launch day. See, you were already thinking rockets!
Congrates on finding that someone special in life.
And by all means, get her invovled too.
Nothing like pushing the launch button once to get someone hooked.
And for dreams, I always wanted to put something in a sustained orbit.
It's what keeps me going besides the fun of peeling glue off my fingers, keyboard, etc. :eyepop:

I'll get her involved later, right now I need to figure out how to get Gorilla Epoxy off the kitchen counters in less than 22 minutes, SHMBO's ETA.:eyepop::y::grin:

I hope you all know I'm kidding about the epoxy. However i was surprised at how hard it was to find pooper troopers on the internet. Just so everyone knows, they were a real thing, but i guess only here in Colorado. Still need to find one to put in this rocket...

https://www.aspensnowmassshrines.com/index.php?27-The-Pooper-Trooper-Park-Shrine-Aspen-Mountain

Sorry for being slow to update, like most engineers I'm also a compulsive tinkerer so internet time is often limited to a few quick minutes just to see what I'm missing.

So my last rocket 25 years ago was an Estes Starloader (maybe II, but I just know this one seems identical). My dad was super cool with me doing whatever I wanted rocket-wise, so long as i was learning something. I tried opening up the holes in the transition piece and gluing theclear tube and transition together with the body tube, in the hopes that the ejection charge would launch a little parchute guy out. It didn't. At the time I had no idea why, but in retrospect I think the paint on the nose cone effectively glued the cone onto the clear cargo bay, or maybe the cone fit too tight into the clear tube, so the ejection charge blew the wall out of the body tube instead.


So with my renewed intrest in rockets and the confidence of 25 additional years working in nuclear power and mechanical (explosive) demolition as an engineer; I feel like I need to finish what I started before I move on towards any of my current day dreams. Also there's some nastalgia, I'm not too cool to admit that it makes a super happy part of my childhood tangible again. :smile:



So I'm going on a road trip to Oregon starting tomorrow and I'll be checking every truck stop/ tourist trap toy rack for little parachute guys. :grin:

As for my truck, yup, the Honcho was probably the most popular trim package on the J-10s. It included the "roll bar" (actually a light bar), white or black painted front and rear bumpers, and the orange to yellow transition decals running the whole length of the truck; and it was available on both the fleetside and sportside beds. Other popular J-10 trim packages were the 4-10 (which oddly didn't come with a AM/FM/CB radio, that was an additional option also available to the Honcho), the Golden Eagle (which didn't always have the actual "eagle" decal on the hood, just the rocker decals and orange and gold stripes down the side), Levi Edition (vinyl seats in demin blue with red Levi tabs sewn to the piping), and the extemely rare SNOW FIGHTER, not to be confused with the SNO FITER package on Dodge trucks, I'm not sure who was ripping off who on that one. And ironically, it came on both manual and automatics, and included no additional provision for mounting a plow, which it also didn't come with.:eyeroll:

Mine is a base J-10 but had the optional rollbar/light bar at one time. It's a T-18 (four on the floor with Granny low 1st), Dana 20 (cast iron/ gear driven) 4x4, and Dana44s front and rear with 3.54 gears (grizzly locker in rear) and currently 33s. I love it so much I recently bought a Grand Cherokee so that the J-10 can spend the winter in the garage.

Matt,

Welcome to the forum! Just a couple of thoughts to get you going:

1. Camera stabilization - I've been looking at the STorM32 3-axis gimbal controller to stabilize video. Probably not good in a drogueless tumble, but should be good for a lot of the flight.
2. Electronics - I haven't flown any Arduino/Pi/etc on a rocket (see below) yet, but it definitely opens up some possibilities.
3. Altitude / Video - A high-altitude balloon may be the ticket for smoother / longer video. The world looks pretty fantastic at 100k feet. (And is a lot less expensive than a rocket to that altitude.)
4. More Electronics - Bdale and Keith at AltusMetrum have open-source hardware and software that allow for a lot of possibilities. This might be a good platform for you to branch out on. They are more than glad to help out.

The truth is, the down part of the flight is often a nausea-inducing tumble or 2-20 minutes of not much going on. I'd challenge you to solve this; my current brain-teaser is something similar on high-altitude weather balloons. How can you get good footage out of a camera swinging on a rope 20 miles above the earth in winds that may reach 200 mph. And add some cinematography to it. :wink:

Find things that interest you, work your way up through the goals, and as Troj (you'll run into him if you spend enough time on the forum) says: Do what makes you happy.

Doug