Space Ship Two crashes during test flight

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Wow, that is shocking.

I guess there has to be some reason, but for now I cannot think of any good reason to ever unlock the feather system until the ship was a lot higher than that. And I am not talking about the "early" unlock at Mach 1, I mean the intended unlock at 1.4. Mach 1.4 as the point of unlock makes no sense at all by itself, because that does not take into account the altitude and therefore the aerodynamic pressure. I mean, if it did not climb to a higher altitude then the aerodynamic forces at Mach 1.4 would be nearly double (1.96 times) the aerodynamic forces at Mach 1. Now, since it is climbing, then on a normal flight profile it would be higher up at Mach 1.4 than lower down at Mach 1, so the air would be thinner. But still…..why even unlock it at all until the air was very thin, after burnout?

This would make as much sense of "arming" the deployment of the landing gear on a space shuttle during the climb into orbit.

Of course, there is a difference between unlocking, and then activating it to deploy. So the feathering wasn't supposed to happen till much later and the pilots did not activate it. But again why unlock it before burnout?

Incredibly ironic, too. The fatal X-15 crash, where the pilot got disoriented (cockpit attitude readouts had been changed from previous missions, contributing to the confusion) and re-entered at the wrong angle of attack, leading to the X-15 breaking up. Rutan came up with the feather system for re-entry as a "fail safe" way to re-enter. So now the fail-safe feather re-entry system goes alongside the "unsinkable" Titanic.

It was stated the proper procedure was to flip the feather mode switch from locked to unlocked when the vehicle past Mach 1.4 (however it was not stated when this should occur, by this I mean on ascent or on descent). (One might assume that the feather deployment code would have some type of time and velocity check to confirm that the time and velocity for crossing Mach 1.4 before proceeding even if the feather mode enable switch was activated early however NTSB has not yet examined the feather deployment code.)

I would not be surprised if there is no computer code to check for safe flight regime conditions before allowing the feather to activate. Goes to the fact that these things are hand-flown by the pilots, rather than using a guidance system to control the ascent. Space Ship One, on perhaps its first flight into space, went out of control in the roll axis for awhile, near the end of the burn. IIRC it kept rolling for quite a while after burnout. I wondered how the guidance system could screw up that bad until I found out it was manually flown by hand. But, it survived, so apparently they didn't give the new ship any automated system either.

In seeing some onboard video this weekend, of a SS2 test flight, looking aft, you can see the wings rocking back and forth and back and forth a few degrees, which would seem consistent with a pilot needing to make small roll corrections moment by moment. A guidance system would hold the wings level, or at least the corrections would have been a lot smoother (unless perhaps they do have a roll damper system but had not gotten it dialed-in by that flight, or the hybrid burn is THAT rough that even an automatic system has trouble).

So, given that mindset for total pilot control of the vehicle, I do not think the feather system would be relying on a computer to give it permission to be activated only once the computer programming agreed the ship was in thin enough air and/or enough time had elapsed since ignition. It would seem it's pretty much the computer responding directly to the command given by the unlock lever, and then responding to the feather lever. This assumes of course there even is a computer in the loop for that, there might not even be a computer beyond the use of a microcontroller to ensure that both tailbooms are being raised and lowered at the exact same angles, so they are parallel to each other at all times. Same for the control surfaces on the flight controls, they would be computer driven in the sense of electro-mechanical activators moving them, but perhaps more analogous to an R/C plane where the computer is the receiver, and the transmitter is the manual controls for the pilots in the cockpit.

BTW - I could see a few reasons to be concerned about letting a computer decide on whether it was safe to deploy the feather. That would be in case of an emergency where the computer might not allow the feather to activate, when the pilots would rather risk the feather in an out of parameter situation than not being able to deploy it at all. Or the computer getting confused by data outside of its programming. Also fears of the computer screwing up, hanging up on a line of code or something. But that could be addressed by an emergency override toggle switch, with a safety cover over it, so it could never be activated by accident, only on purpose.

Of course, there is the mystery of why the feather activated anyway since the activate lever was not moved. So that could have been a computer problem if the computer was in the loop (or a short in the wiring to the feather activation lever, if it is electromechanical and not some sort of hydraulic activation). Or it could have been something as basic as why the tailbooms were intended to be LOCKED to begin with, so that aerodynamic forces could not cause the actuator systems to be overwhelmed and pitch the wing and fuselage up. In other words, once unlocked, aerodynamic loads could have taken over and forced it to pivot up to feather, then breakup soon after.

So, if this accident is due to the Feather system activating early, that is the sort of thing that can be fixed pretty quickly. But even so, they have two massive issues. For one, the fallout from the accident in so many ways, the most basic one being how many customers would still be willing to go, never mind the regulatory attention they are deservedly going to get before they are ever allowed to carry passengers.

The other is basic rocket science. Even with the new nylon propellant in place of HTPB rubber, from what I read up on over the weekend, it seems that the engine does not have the Newton-seconds to get it high enough to reach space. Of course how high up "space" is, is an arbitrary altitude that was determined by a committee, choosing 100 km , or 62 miles (For the US Air Force, it was 50 miles). So they may need yet another engine to do it, but having squeezed about all they can out of hybrid technology that can fit inside the existing airframe design, they might have to go with a liquid engine to get the performance.

Having seen and read more this weekend, the photos of the bright flame and dense smoke early, then the "wimpy" flame and less smoke seems to have this explanation. For the ignition process of the hybrid, methane and perhaps another gas I do not recall was mixed in, to help get it going. That could explain the bright flame and dense smoke early, the methane and perhaps another gas being burned in the ignition process, then by the time of the other photo it was burning normal, with less flame and less smoke. Also looked very different from the other powered flights since the HTPB rubber fuel produced a lot more flame and a dark smoke.

BTW - a correction to an earlier matter, the pilot that survived didn't climb out of the fuselage, there was no fuselage to climb out of. It seems most of the fuselage disintegrated, including the cockpit, so both pilots were thrown out. The one who didn't make it , still in his seat, was too badly injured to survive. Their personal chutes opened automatically at about 10,000 feet or so.

- George Gassaway
 
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I believe the recent series of powered flights were not attempts to get altitude but to test the handling of the vehicle at increasing Mach numbers and IIRC the max velocity for the previous flight was Mach 1.4, so I believe that's why a Mach 1.4 velocity was the threshold set to unlock the feather mechanism on the last powered flight.

Certainly the designers knew, or should have known, that feather mechanism deployment while the motor is burning will cause the vehicle to pitch up and tumble due to off-axial thrust so it is doesn't make any sense to unlock the feather mechanism until the motor has shut down.

Of course hindsight is 20/20 but a way to help prevent future accidental deployments would be a post MECO confirmation requirement in feather unlocking sequence.

Bob
 
Early on I heard in the news today that Space Ship Two had ejection seats, and their experts said it was impossible to safely eject and survive a fall "from space" because those experts did not have the real-time info to know yet at what point in the flight the problem happened, so they were thinking it had gotten way higher and would be re-entering. So with accuracy like that, a person saying the motor blew on ignition does not mean much...... deja vu?

I went by the words of a person who was close to Space Ship One's development and continuing to keep track of Space Ship Two. She reported in great detail that it ignited, burned for about 2 seconds, lost thrust or stopped, then started up about a second later and blew.

Even the photos you referred to back that up, look at the flame and plume big during that first 2 seconds, then wimpy, then boom. That's not a cato on ignition


ihabTrj.jpg


How many times did the new version blow up ground testing? I can't find any info on this year's test firings (I'm sure they were done, but how many and how they went is the question).

It has blown up 100% of the time in flight testing. Well, something involved with the propulsion system failed, if not the engine casing itself. Such as possibly the nitrous tank overpressurizing and bursting, or the piping from the tank to the engine developing a major leak, causing a rapid cascade of problems. Even possibly POGO.

If it was human error in preparation, it would be ironic if they were not even more careful for an actual manned flight test than for ground tests.

So, again, it MIGHT be a RANDOM thing where it was horrible bad luck that it happened in the air and not on the ground. But common sense says it is more likely an issue of something that ground testing did not account for in actual flight conditions. Because the history of rocket vehicles is replete with problems and failures that occurred in flight that were not accounted for properly in ground testing.

- George Gassaway.


I can tell you that the Nitrous Oxide tank did not burst because you can see it in the wreckage.
 
I believe the recent series of powered flights were not attempts to get altitude but to test the handling of the vehicle at increasing Mach numbers and IIRC the max velocity for the previous flight was Mach 1.4, so I believe that's why a Mach 1.4 velocity was the threshold set to unlock the feather mechanism on the last powered flight.

They were not doing long burns, but they were not doing horizontal speed runs either. The last successful powered flight, that got to Mach 1.4, topped out at 71,000 feet, about 26,000 above the altitude it was when dropped. I saw some onboard footage and it looked like they did the same kind of climb they would do for a flight into space, simply the engine was shut down a lot sooner (and needed to be shut early anyway since they could not trust it beyond about a 20 second burn).

In reading other threads in recent months, such as the Titan-II missile and close calls with nuclear bombs almost going off, one thing might be relevant in this case. For example the nuclear weapon desingers know what the risks are for variosu aspects. Then the builders build. The bombs make it to the Air Force. The Air Force trains people on how to handle them. Top Brass at the Pentagon "know" all about it. Except too often they didn't. Because the end user never knows as much as the original designers do (and secrecy for the sake of national security also played a big role in not enough information being provided to all who really DID need to know, but they didn't know they needed to know. Hey, we don;t want the Russians to know what methods we use to "Safe" our nuclear weapons, so don't let anybody know. Even though down the road someone might realize that for example a physical arming pin that needed to be removed before the bomb was armed..... could be yanked out if a bomber broke up in flight and the bomb fell out). So to jump back to this case, while the designers knew it was not a good idea to unlock early, this may never have filtered down to the pilots. Or maybe it was told to the original pilots, but that didn't get accurately passed on to everybody. It can't truly be pilot error if the pilot was never informed properly of the consequences of unlocking early.

Update - Well, one of the cue cards the pilots use for various portions of flight, said not to unlock until reaching Mach 1.4, so they did know not to (even if perhaps not what the consequences could be). And the stated procedure was that the pilot would say unlock then the co-pilot would agree and unlock. But apparently on at least one previous flight, the co-pilot unlocked without the pilot telling him to do it. Also they have a crazy workload in those intense seconds. But again nowhere have I read WHY even unlock the thing until its way higher in much thinner air, after burnout.

- George Gassaway
 
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This is another example of why those in the business of flight understand that the story isn't over until it's over. Almost everyone here was ready to jump all over the new engine, Scaled Composites, and Rutan on day one without any actual knowledge of what happened.

Uninformed speculation has tarnished people, companies, and machines past the point of recovery.

FC

+1 FC

I was in boot camp when this event happened:

https://learni.st/boards/83053/learnings/740016-what-the-world-saw-that-fateful-day

Greg
 
I'm wondering if the lock was merely to prevent aero forces from forcing the mechanism during transonic flight, hence the unlock at mach 1.4 when it is no longer required. Sounds to me that it needs an additional safe device in there to prevent accidental unlocking.
 
This is another example of why those in the business of flight understand that the story isn't over until it's over. Almost everyone here was ready to jump all over the new engine, Scaled Composites, and Rutan on day one without any actual knowledge of what happened.

Uninformed speculation has tarnished people, companies, and machines past the point of recovery.

FC

+2!


Launching rockets (or missiles in my case) is so easy a chimp could do it. Read a step, do a step, eat a banana.

Sent from my iPad Air using Rocketry Forum.
 
I don't understand why, regardless of speed for unlocking, you would unlock when the motor was in operation.......people are saying he unlocked at mach 1 and not 1.4 however I don't think it is assumed you would unlock during motor burn.....
 
I don't understand why, regardless of speed for unlocking, you would unlock when the motor was in operation.......people are saying he unlocked at mach 1 and not 1.4 however I don't think it is assumed you would unlock during motor burn.....

The pilots have pre-prepared cue cards for things to do at certain points of the flight. One of those said do not unlock before Mach 1.4. Which is also the same as saying it is OK to unlock at Mach 1.4. But that still makes no sense to me. I have finally posted that question on the NASA Spacelfight forum. Maybe someone has a good solid answer as to why it was so important to unlock at 1.4 and not way later. I won't be surprised though, that assuming the program continues (a second SS2 is reported about 65% built), they never unlock it before burnout again.

- George Gassaway
 
I'm wondering if 'unlocking' means 'arming'.

An example. In some airliners, the spoilers are armed as part of the before landing checklist. What that means is when certain conditions are met (such as throttles at idle and main wheel spinup past a certain speed), all the spoilers auto deploy at full deflection...a condition in theory impossible to replicate in the air (and that would be very dangerous if it did).

I wonder if it is part of the checklist for that reason...if certain conditions are met, the feather auto-deploys, but this time, there was a sensing fault.

FC
 
I'm wondering if 'unlocking' means 'arming'.

No, in this case it literally means unlocking. The Feather pivot system was physically locked, for example some sort of retracting locking pin, or maybe for example like a door DEADBOLT lock.

But once unlocked, the only thing keeping the tailbooms from pivoting up (or more accurately, keeping the fuselage and main wing from pivoting up since the tail surfaces were keeping the booms straight into the airflow, the only thing trying to hold the front fuselage into the airflow were the tailbooms via the hinge pivots), is the physical strength of the pneumatic system pushing to hold it DOWN.

It would seem that the aerodynamic forces at the altitude there were at, at about Mach 1.0 (thicker air than when they reached Mach 1.4), and the uneven forces of transsonic flow, PLUS the high angle of attack with the pilots pulling back on the stick to pitch up (causing an increased G force in the "towards the floor" axis), may have been more than the pneumatic system could hold back, so the pneumatic system may have lost the battle to allow the pivoting to occur.

- George Gassaway
 
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From my book on spaceship one, it said that aerodynamically the booms wanted to be held closed and the actuators had to work to keep the feather in place.....again, the feathers are not supposed to be actuated when the rocket is firing.
 
Maybe someone has a good solid answer as to why it was so important to unlock at 1.4 and not way later.
I'm thinking that they are worried about the mechanism getting stuck and the prospect of having to renter without the feathering to stabilise. If you wait till burn out to unlock and it fails then it is too late to abort (you are too high and too fast). I guess they want to have time to maybe try a backup procedure and failing that turn off the engine (or throtle it right back) and still be low enough so that they can bring the nose back down using areodynamic controls. Mach 1.4 is probably the minimum safe speed to unlock, they do it then so as to give themselves as much time as possible.
 
That is only when re-entering. The forces when plummeting back down are different than the forces when under rocket power and with the nose pitched upward to climb.

From my book on spaceship one, it said that aerodynamically the booms wanted to be held closed and the actuators had to work to keep the feather in place.....again, the feathers are not supposed to be actuated when the rocket is firing.
 
[YOUTUBE]TOSNVJzZn90[/YOUTUBE]

New Facts disclosure.

Actual timeline of events.

Retraction of who unlocked the feather mechanism: It was the person in the right seat. Was that the co-pilot or the pilot?

Bob
 
To my message asking: Maybe someone has a good solid answer as to why it was so important to unlock at 1.4 and not way later.

I'm thinking that they are worried about the mechanism getting stuck and the prospect of having to renter without the feathering to stabilise. If you wait till burn out to unlock and it fails then it is too late to abort (you are too high and too fast). I guess they want to have time to maybe try a backup procedure and failing that turn off the engine (or throtle it right back) and still be low enough so that they can bring the nose back down using areodynamic controls. Mach 1.4 is probably the minimum safe speed to unlock, they do it then so as to give themselves as much time as possible.

On the NASA Spaceflight forum, someone said pretty much that. Another person followed that up to point out that is speculation, there seems to be no solid decomentation out there to explain why.

So, with no more official explanation, I'll say it does sound reasonable as a reason to unlock long before reaching burnout for the flights that would go high enough to really need the feather (60 sec burn or so). So if the feather would not unlock they could shut down the engine. Although it still sounds strange that they would want to unlock it THAT early (Mach 1.4 at about 15 seconds into the burn), unless there was an intent to allow for 10-20 seconds of "try again", and "do you want to abort", and so on as the engine would keep burning, as opposed to "unlock failed" followed a second later by either pilot shutting the engine off. Because it does not really need the feather that much if it is going to end up at say half the intended altitude. Of course I am approximating whatever the safest height may be before they need the feather.

Also, there is info out there that it CAN re-enter without the feather, but the pilots have to do it accurately. While the feather is a more of a "fail safe" way to re-enter. Except the "Fail Safe" technology of the Feather was not actually fail-safe (based on what seems to have been the cause of the accident), much like the much-lauded Titanic technology was said to make it "unsinkable".

As to who was in the right seat, activating the unlock early, it was the co-pilot, who did not survive. I keep seeing conflicting info on whether he too was thrown out or was still in what was left of the disintegrated cockpit.

- George Gassaway
 
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Virgin Galactic pilot defied the odds to survive crash

https://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/chi-virgin-spaceship-survivor-20141105-story.html

"The fact that he survived a descent of 50,000 feet is pretty amazing," said Paul Tackabury, a veteran test pilot who sat on the board of directors of Scaled Composites until it was sold to Northrop Grumman Corp. "You don't just jump out of aircraft at Mach 1 at over 50,000 feet without a space suit."

The exact details of Siebold's more than 10-mile fall are still unknown. On Monday night, federal investigators said they still had not been able to interview him.

"We don't know how he got out," National Transportation Safety Board spokesman Eric Weiss said Tuesday.
 
Retraction of who unlocked the feather mechanism: It was the person in the right seat. Was that the co-pilot or the pilot?

I think that it needs to be proven as to who was in which seat, thy cannot blame the co-pilot until they have legal proof that it was him. I.E. it's not sufficient to say that where he should be sitting.
 
I think that it needs to be proven as to who was in which seat, thy cannot blame the co-pilot until they have legal proof that it was him. I.E. it's not sufficient to say that where he should be sitting.
There is onboard video camera footage, from more than one angle. Apparently his face is identifiable in the video.

Also of course, if there was not any video, they have their assigned seats and assigned duties (it seems the feather unlock can only be accessed by the right side co-pilot seat). For test pilots, it would be unprofessional if they "swapped seats" by their own decision and not with knowledge and approval from flight managers.

- George Gassaway
 
I think that it needs to be proven as to who was in which seat, thy cannot blame the co-pilot until they have legal proof that it was him. I.E. it's not sufficient to say that where he should be sitting.

It's also important to realize that we don't know why the lever was moved early. It could be, for example, that the cockpit displays were incorrect.

-- Roger
 
This article describes (as SpaceManMat speculated earlier in this thread) that the unlock of the feather at no less than Mach 1.4 is to prevent transonic buffeting from causing deployment.
 
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