Newbie question on options for L1 cert rocket

I'm a LPR BAR who is planning on doing my Level 1 cert next year, and I am looking at options for my L1 cert project. I love classic (1970's) Estes and Centuri rockets, and I would prefer to have an upscale classic. I am eyeballing the Mad Cow Big Fizz (basically an Alpha upscale).

Can anyone comment on:
- what precautions would have to be taken to prevent damage to the rather pointing swept fins on the Alpha/ Big Fizz
- what other classic upscales are available as kits or part sets.

I do plan on buying "Modern High Power Rockety 2" from NARTS, BTW.

Thanks,
DeWain

DeWain said:

I'm a LPR BAR who is planning on doing my Level 1 cert next year, and I am looking at options for my L1 cert project. I love classic (1970's) Estes and Centuri rockets, and I would prefer to have an upscale classic. I am eyeballing the Mad Cow Big Fizz (basically an Alpha upscale).

Can anyone comment on:
- what precautions would have to be taken to prevent damage to the rather pointing swept fins on the Alpha/ Big Fizz

Click to expand...

Easy method: Bigger parachute

Harder method: Tip to tip fiberglass reinforcement

DeWain said:

- what other classic upscales are available as kits or part sets.

I do plan on buying "Modern High Power Rockety 2" from NARTS, BTW.

Thanks,
DeWain

Click to expand...

I don't know of any other manufacturers off hand that have upscale Estes kits good for L1 other than Madcow. I'm sure someone will come along shortly and let us know who they are. Typically, when someone wants to upscale and old kit they do it from scratch which really isn't that hard considering vendors like Red Arrow Hobbies are hanging around.

-DAllen

I agree with DAllen. The most typical method people use to build upscales is simply from scratch. Plenty of vendors carry the necessary parts (tubes, couplers, motor mounts, centering rings, etc) to do the construction. You can get the plywood for your fins from your local hobby shop. You can get all the dimensions you need for the build from the original plans online provided by either by JimZ (https://www.dars.org/jimz/rp00.htm) or Ye Olde Rocket Shop (https://www.oldrocketplans.com/).

I've built 4" and 6" (tube diameter) upscales of the original Estes Astron Bandit (K-48).

Buy a kit,

do your L1 cert first, then play
with upscales and ye...

Keep it simple...

I just did my L1 last May, and I am building my L2 right now. I've read that new to HPR BARs often obsess about the rocket to certify with and usually make it more complicated and expensive than needed--and looking back, I did the same thing. It just was not as hard as I made it to be. Here are my relatively fresh suggestions:

- Most (if not all) HPR kits will do just fine, bone stock
- Invest in a good parachute, like a Sky Angle or Spherachute--stock chutes are usually on the fast side for certifications
- Zippers happen; Giant Leap "Fireball" works to reduce this
- Nylon recovery harnesses 'give' a little more than Kevlar (zero give)--help reduce zippers and stress on everything--but they need a fire protector sleeve
- You don't need to spend much on a kit, but a kit does make things easier and less stressful (especially at the RSO table); I certified on a BSD 38 Special, and it worked fantastic--too bad BSD is not making kits at the moment, but there are tons of great kits out there
- If I had to do it all over again, and not having BSD as an available choice, I would focus on relatively simple kits like the: LOC Fantom, LOC Forte, LOC IV, LOC Bullet, PML Ariel, Binder Excel & Excel Plus, PML Pterodactyl, Jr., PML Tethys, etc. (about 3-4" in diameter and about 40-60" tall with a 38mm MMT)
- I would start using Pro38 from the get go--it's that much easier, and worth the price differential in my opinion (assuming your local supplier has it); if you want to learn Aerotech motors, that's great, but on cert day Pro38 sure would have been a nice stress relief

Good luck--it sure is a fun journey!

roadkill said:

Buy a kit,

do your L1 cert first, then play
with upscales and ye...

Keep it simple...

Click to expand...

Agreed. Maybe a PML kit with quantum tubing and g10 fins for toughness. Or a small 4" phenolic + ply kit (e.g. Binder Designs Thug) to be able to get your hands inside.

G

Thanks for the info folks. I do want to keep my L1 cert rocket fairly simple. I am considering some scratch built options (such as a 3" Astron Avenger- single stage only).

I've done LPR upscales (my avatar is a 1.68x Astron Orbital Transport built using scaled up JimZ plans), but there is a big difference between working with balsa fin stock and 1/4" plywood fin stock. I have a lot of experience (and oddly enough... I really enjoy it) cutting and shaping balsa. For my first HPR project, I want to either do a kit, or to pay someone to cut fins for an upscale.

my opinion...3/4FNC 3"-4" 38mm lob it up with an H. easy spleasy. over build it so it doesn't snap a fin off. i did fiberglass the fin roots on my lvl 1 (which was also a BSD 38spl). make it the easiest most reliable rocket you've ever built, and you'll get your cert...then you can start messing around...but dont forget your wallet, you're gonna need it in HPR.

Well you could always upscale a Fat Boy to 4 or 5.5" dia.

BTW Madcow makes some nice kits. I'm currently putting together a Mozzie. Nice quality stuff. You might consider their Patriot for your L1 kit. Nice size and will fly easily on a 2 grain 38mm motor.

Hope to see you in December.


Al

This from Giant Leap might interest you.

https://www.giantleaprocketry.com/hpdefault.asp

geof said:

roadkill said:

Buy a kit,

do your L1 cert first, then play
with upscales and ye...

Keep it simple...

Click to expand...

Agreed. Maybe a PML kit with quantum tubing and g10 fins for toughness. Or a small 4" phenolic + ply kit (e.g. Binder Designs Thug) to be able to get your hands inside.

G

Click to expand...

I like what geof has to say, I got a PML Calisto 5 years ago and a BD Thug 4 years ago. Both fly great on H motors and would make great L1 birds.

roadkill also knows what she's talking about, but I completely disagree with her, purely on philosophical grounds.

I finally got my L1 this spring after flying the Calisto and Thug on F & Gs for 5 years. I scratch build my own design with dual deploy and used the longest burn I motor I could get, a Loki I110W. I made the flight as challenging as I could. What I learned building my L1 bird was way beyond anything I could have learned just playing it safe with a kit.

I don't want to say roadkill's advice it wrong, it's not, I just want to say you should consider pushing the envelope some. Do that upscale. I had an Avenger back in the day and build another now. Love that rocket. I say, go for the upscale Avenger and build it for two stage. A cert on a two stage with a pair of H180W would be so cool.

Remember, the only consequence for a failed L1 attempt is you get to try it again.

If you just want to get your level one, follow Roadkill's advice. If you want to make a neat scratch upscale or something like that, and get your L1 in the process, do whatever you want. The worst that could happen is that you could fail, and you would have to try again. I'm a big advocate of the interesting rockets, including for cert, and I wouldn't make sacrifices just to guarantee the cert. I recently did my L2 on a scratch AMRAAM that was perfect scale on an L2375. Was it the easiest way to cert? Absolutely not. Was it fun and worth it? Absolutely.

I'll be going for my L1 at NYPOWER 2009. I got a PML Tethys for my birthday and am planning on using that as my stock kit for cert. I like their kwick switch motor mount system to keep options open on motors. I'm more comfortable using the LOC tubes, so will have to see how Quantum Tubing behaves. I'll also be upscaling one of my LPR rockets to fly 29mm as an alternative challenge for that event. I'll be looking forward to hearing of your progress. Good luck!

Whatever you do, put the biggest motor mount you can in it - 38mm minimum. You can always make or buy inexpensive adapters to use smaller motors.

I used a Yank/LOC Mystic Buzz for my cert. on an H128. I built it to run off Gs early this year and put a thust ring in it because I wasn't planning on using reloads. When I heard about the Jr. cert. program (and I couldn't get a Talon before Christmas), I got a hole saw and drilled out the ring and flew it the next week at MWP, in a cert. drag race against my dad (he won). Yank no longer sells kits, and the rocket will never fly on larger Hs and Is, but the same style kit is available from other companies, and I have a rocksim file on it.

View attachment 3-mystic-buzz.rkt

I know a lot of people certify Levels 1 & 2 on the Polecat 5.5" Fat Man, I did my level 2 on it, they are almost indestructable. I picked up the ebay that goes with it and am using it to learn about dual deploy and electronics, I'm really getting my moneys worth out of this rocket.