Launcher question...for you electronics guys

The Rocketry Forum

Help Support The Rocketry Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

bigone5500

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2009
Messages
2,122
Reaction score
1
I built a homemade launcher using an estes controller to activate the 12v relay which delivers current to the igniter(s). My problem is this: when I insert the safety key, the light bulb doesnt' have enough resistance to keep the relay from activating therefore not being very safe. I have put an LED in there with a 1K resistor and that does the job. But when I press the launch button and release, the relay stays engaged. I know that doesn't matter if the igniter has fired, but I want to know why this is happening. Is it that the resistor has enough resistance to keep the relay from powering but once power is applied, does the reisistance of the relay coil come into play making the circuit latch?

A positively perplexing puzzle perhaps...
 
I built a homemade launcher using an estes controller to activate the 12v relay which delivers current to the igniter(s). My problem is this: when I insert the safety key, the light bulb doesnt' have enough resistance to keep the relay from activating therefore not being very safe. I have put an LED in there with a 1K resistor and that does the job. But when I press the launch button and release, the relay stays engaged. I know that doesn't matter if the igniter has fired, but I want to know why this is happening. Is it that the resistor has enough resistance to keep the relay from powering but once power is applied, does the reisistance of the relay coil come into play making the circuit latch?

A positively perplexing puzzle perhaps...

Without seeing your actual circuit, its pretty much anyone's guess to what is going on.

But assuming you have your switch and 1k/LED in parallel and then in series with your relay coil . . . .

What is happening is that the pull-in current requirement for the relay is much more than the "stay" current requirement. The 10mA (12V Battery - (2V Vfwd of Diode) / 1k) isn't enough to pull the relay in, but may be enough to keep it pulled in once its there. Again, can't say for sure since i have no idea what kind of relay you are using - plus i have doubts that 10mA alone can keep the type of relay i think you are using pulled in.

Do you have a schematic? That would help.
 
I haven't use an Estes launch controller in a long time, but isn't the lamp supposed to be a continuity check? If you have modified it and are using it as a relay launcher, you can't use the lamp in the circuit with the relay coil. You need four wires from the controller to the pad, 2 from the firing switch to the relay coil, and two from the relay contacts back to the continuity lamp to indicate continuity. The battery at the pad has to supply the current for the continuity lamp. The two circuits have to be seperate.
 
I have a continuity test button on the relay box. There's an LED that lights up when the test button is pressed. There's also an on/off switch that powers the circuit. It's not the best launcher but it'll do...for now.
 
It sounds like your relay coil is too sensitive for this type of application. The best cure would be a different relay, but putting an additional load across the relay coil (a small 12V incandescent bulb, maybe?) might help.

A relay that will stay pulled in on 10mA is quite unusual, particularly one that is large enough for use in a launch controller. Is this a standard electromagnetic relay, or some kind of solid state relay?
 
This is the one I'm using: https://www.radioshack.com/product/...&sr=1&origkw=relay&kw=relay&parentPage=search

It's probably too small but it will work for now..I suppose. At least until I can build a better launcher.

Well, there you go - no wonder.
It has a pull-in current of 30mA which is very little. So the stay current is probably just low enough that your LED circuit is keeping it pulled in.

I'd say get a new relay.

Or better yet, go solid state and use a MOSFET instead of a relay. Will require a somewhat different circuit though, but pretty easy.
 
My sugestion is to use a 30 amp automotive relay and when using the estes controler remove the lamp/led from the circuit therefor the hold on voltage will not be present. That might be difficult to do to remove the LED because you probably soldered it in. By removing the safty key after the flight should return the relay to its open state.
Just my .02$ worth
 
Your relay only needs 30 ma to pull it in. It probably will stay in on 10 ma. The relay is really not rated for the currents you will get in a launcher application. You want a SPDT automotive relay. It's cheaper and handles a lot more current than the RS unit you currently have. The generic automotive power relay while rated for typically 30 or 40 amps won't weld until 150 amps so it's realy robust and cheap.

https://www.allelectronics.com/ has some and the prewired relay socket to go with it.

image_product.align.center;height.250;vspace.5;width.150;modified.1207856826.RLY-351.jpg
image_product.align.center;height.250;vspace.5;width.150;modified.1207856912.SRLY-2.jpg


Sting Pro # RL-5X. 12 Vdc, 88 ohm coil. N.O. contacts rated 30 A. N.C. contacts rated 20 amps. Plastic enclosed relay, 1.1" x 1.2" x 1" high. Plastic flange for bulkhead mounting. QC, solder or socket mount terminals. Sockets available, see relay socket section. Standardized design for many automotive applications. $2.40 https://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/RLY-351/12V-SPDT-30-AMP-AUTOMOTIVE-RELAY/-/1.html

5 wire socket with two 18 AWG leads and three 14 AWG leads. $2.00 https://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/SRLY-2/SOCKET-FOR-AUTOMOTIVE-RELAY/-/1.html

You can also get them at any auto store. RS has a similar unit but they are simply a SPST switch which may or may not work depending on the rest of your circuit

Bob
 
I might just go with one of those automotive relays or I may try to find someone who has a junk lawnmower and get the starter relay from it. It's hard to believe that those small estes igniters have the potential to draw such current from a 12v battery. I wonder how 4 AA size batteries can deliver such current over and over again. I have pondered the thought before but never discussed it, but what is the current capability of one alkaline AA battery? 200mA? 500mA? I suppose that would be ok if you were to use the batteries in parallel but you would only have 1.5vdc.

Sorry to venture off topic here ... :D
 
bigone5500:

You really need to post a circuit diagram. If you have it wired up the way I think you do, you're missing a diode.
 
It's hard to believe that those small estes igniters have the potential to draw such current from a 12v battery.
The do. An Estes igniter has a resistance of about 1 Ohm, so with 12V at the igniter leads it will draw around 12 amps (Ohm's Law). Any additional resistance in the launcher and leads will reduce the current, but the voltage at the igniter will also be less.

I wonder how 4 AA size batteries can deliver such current over and over again. I have pondered the thought before but never discussed it, but what is the current capability of one alkaline AA battery? 200mA? 500mA? I suppose that would be ok if you were to use the batteries in parallel but you would only have 1.5vdc.

They don't. There is internal resistance of the batteries that limits the current, plus, you're talking about a 6V system instead of a 12V one, so right there you're looking at 6 Amps instead of 12 - only if the batteries are super-fresh. After even just a bit of use, an alkaline battery is more likely to be around 1.3V. Add all that together and you have a system that delivers just barely enough power to get the igniter to work. Throw in some tired batteries, dirty contacts and crusty clips, and it doesn't.

Energizer's application manual for their alkaline batteries show discharge rates up to 1000mA in one of the graphs. I'm guessing you can get considerably more than that with the near dead short application of an igniter, but it's not something they are envisioning as a good application for an alkaline. Another graph in that document shows how capacity in mAh declines with increasing discharge rate, so the high discharge rate of a launcher doesn't bode well for battery life.

If it makes you feel any better, I made exactly the same mistake as you did of using a too-wimpy relay when I first built my relay launcher. I think I used the same relay. Didn't last very long at all. Then I learned how much current there was! Now it has a 30A automotive relay.
 
There is a real visible difference in operation with Estes igniters on 12V vs. the 4xAA battery setup.

With a good 12V setup, the motor fires immediately when you hit the button. When using AAs, there is maybe a second or 2 delay, while the igniter heats up.

A 12V setup generally burns the igniter completely open when fired. The stock 6V battery pack just heats the igniter up enough to make the bridgewire glow and the pyrogen coating flash off. You can actually reuse the same igniter a few times if you want to.
 
Or better yet, go solid state and use a MOSFET instead of a relay. Will require a somewhat different circuit though, but pretty easy.

Can someone tell me how to do this? Solid state is cool and I would like to try this. Anyone got a parts list and a schematic?

As for the schematic of mine, I really don't have one but I could make one I suppose...if I really need to.
 
Automotive relays are the best fastest and cheapest thing to use.

They take very little to power and deliver a big whack for current. Fets you have to worry about peak rushes, Current limiting, and if you do find a good one with great on resistance, your head hits the table hard when you hear the cost, plus PCB cost and other part needed to make it work.

30 to 40 amp automotive relay and harness hold run in the $5.00 range and have tabs for mounting them or there are 200 to 500 amp automotive relay under $25.00

If they break toss it out and goto your local automotive store and get a new one, heck even Walmart has them all day long.

FAST, EASY and Simple!:D

Try looking here for Launcher info https://www.info-central.org/index.cgi?support
 
Automotive relays are the best fastest and cheapest thing to use.
They take very little to power

MOSFETs take much less power to drive than a relay. Almost by several orders of magnitude. Plus, the gate of a MOSFET doesn't require continuous current to drive like a relay.

and deliver a big whack for current.

Again, MOSFETs will out perform a relay in this department almost every time (size for size). A small $4.00 MOSFET will delivery more peak current, with less losses and fit in a package 50+ times less volume than a similar rated relay.

Fets you have to worry about peak rushes

Again, no. MOSFETs can handle significant peak current.

, Current limiting,

Not any more than a relay.

and if you do find a good one with great on resistance, your head hits the table hard when you hear the cost, plus PCB cost and other part needed to make it work.

Again, no, no, no. A MOSFET of similar performance is much cheaper than a relay, doesn't necessarily need a PCB board, and only requires small amount of parts.

30 to 40 amp automotive relay and harness hold run in the $5.00 range and have tabs for mounting them

For example, you can get an MOSFET rated for 40A continuous with about 0.006 ohms RDSON for about $2.00.

or there are 200 to 500 amp automotive relay under $25.00

200 to 500A relays are a bit silly and overkill. You'll never see that kind of peak current in a 12V launch system. Even with 10 igniters in parallel with the length of hook-up cable you'd still probably only see less than 20A.

I respect your differing opinion on the matter, but in the future, get a handle on the actual facts before making a response.
 
Boy this is a Shut your mouth Don kinda thing, and I will , anyway this would defeat this forums simple question, that 90% of the answers was " Relay "!

But if you we're correct, the Automotive Industry would of drop relays from all their vehicles, and they have not.

Never saw a FET at Walmart or a automotive store when you needs a fast replacement
 
But if you we're correct, the Automotive Industry would of drop relays from all their vehicles, and they have not.

Never saw a FET at Walmart or a automotive store when you needs a fast replacement

Again, your statement is wrong and based on your simple observation that Walmart doesn't carry replacement semiconductors.

The fact is, that semiconductor devices, including solid state relays / switches, as well as loads of other devices including sensors, etc... are replacing their mechanical counterparts. This because the cost of power semiconductors is rapidly decreasing while their power characteristics are improving, and because of the newer trend of intelligent power systems. In newer cars, intelligent functions and active safety features are required, thus driving the need to use a solid state switch (i.e. MOSFET). With a MOSFET you can measure and control current, easily interface control systems to them (without the need for high current drivers that relays typically need), and also be able to sense and detect broken lights, defective wiring, and other anomalies. You can't do that with a mechanical relay! Also dimming can easily be implemented (i.e. your dash lights, dome lights, door lights, etc...) by using a MOSFET switch and PWM modulation (varying the duty cycle to reduce average power to the light)

The reason you don't see replacement semiconductors etc... is because they are not OEM replacement devices. Because they lack mechanical contacts and moving parts, they are extremely reliable and designed to withstand the entire life of the vehicle.

As well as working as a power engineer for Lockheed Martin, i also run my own consulting business and have done consulting for some of the big automakers for their power systems. And yes, they use large numbers of power semiconductors as switching devices in their automobiles, which includes SCRs, MOSFETS, and IGBTs. Even more so in electric hybrid vehicles. Obviously, relays are not being phased out completely, but there is a push for continuing to utilize more silicon in vehicular systems, especially considering the cost is dropping.

and I will , anyway this would defeat this forums simple question, that 90% of the answers was " Relay "!

And i'm sure this answer is simply based on the fact that its been done this way for almost all eternity, and that most aren't familiar with the design of power electronics.

Again, not saying a relay doesn't work, but rather that solid state is another option.
 
... It's hard to believe that those small estes igniters have the potential to draw such current from a 12v battery. ...

The scenario to worry about is a shorted igniter or, worse, a pair of shorted clips, and a novice on the console who holds the button down for several seconds. That's a lot of current, for a prolonged period of time, that could weld the contacts of an undersized (edit: relay) so that the next time it's used, your rocket launches as soon as the safety key is put in.

Which leads to an accident scenario if the key happens to have been accidentally left in....

--tc
 
This is some great info guys. I have always been intrigued by electronics and I like to be able to use them where/when I can. And in this case, my mouth waters ... Necromancer, can you suggest a good MOSFET that I can get at my local Radio Shack? Or will I have to order from an online source? I do have access to Power FETs at work so I may be able to borrow ... ahem... one from them. What type should I look for, pnp or npn? This would be a switching transistor too right? I guess I half know what I'm not talking about...:lol:
 
This is some great info guys. I have always been intrigued by electronics and I like to be able to use them where/when I can. And in this case, my mouth waters ... Necromancer, can you suggest a good MOSFET that I can get at my local Radio Shack? Or will I have to order from an online source? I do have access to Power FETs at work so I may be able to borrow ... ahem... one from them. What type should I look for, pnp or npn? This would be a switching transistor too right? I guess I half know what I'm not talking about...:lol:

Just tell me what your driving circuit would be (schematic?). I assume this would be your present ESTES launcher? Schematic definitely helpful here. Or at least characterize what the output would be (voltage etc...)

If so, then i'd be glad to help you in your design.
 
For a 12V based launcher, this one might work:

https://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=RFP40N10-ND

It's N-Channel, so Source to ground, Drain to one end of the ignitor, Gate to the control circuit. +12V on Gate will switch the transistor on and current will flow. The other end of the ignitor goes to +12V. So you are switching the ground. ON resistance is .04Ohm, quite low. And at $1.31/ea, quite reasonably priced. I would add a 10K resistor from ground to Gate to keep it turned off when you don't apply any signal to it. It's rated for 40A continuous current (100A pulsed), so it should handle most anything we will throw at it. Toss a heatsink on there, and it shouldn't blow out easily.

For more power, this looks pretty good:

https://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=HRF3205-ND

Lower RdsON (.008Ohm) and higher current levels. $1.83/ea.

A little more expensive ($2.61), but logic level (trigger from +5V):

https://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=IPI100N06S3L-04IN-ND
 
I'm going to throw together a quick schematic and we'll see what you think...
 
Here is a launcher design i've used with much success. Its very robust and the MOSFET can handle as much as current as your big industrial relays can.

See attached PDF . . .
Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see a physical disconnect of the power from the launcher in the safe position. SW1 does not physically break the power so if Q1 fails in the "on" state, the rest of the circuit is hot regardless of the position of SW1.

Bob
 
Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see a physical disconnect of the power from the launcher in the safe position. SW1 does not physically break the power so if Q1 fails in the "on" state, the rest of the circuit is hot regardless of the position of SW1.

Bob
100% correct
Most Fets Fail in a on state as with alot of state relay, we have that problem with heater units getting stuck on , in power dist. boxes units here, we now monitor the outputs with temp sensors and a master relay to shut them down when erroring. Maybe just a good old Switch would be more secure in that app.
 
Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see a physical disconnect of the power from the launcher in the safe position. SW1 does not physically break the power so if Q1 fails in the "on" state, the rest of the circuit is hot regardless of the position of SW1.

Bob

Yes, Q1 would be "safer" if used with a mechanical switch. I agree that would be a better choice.

Actually, the Q1 arrangement is a great circuit for use with powering payload electronics, such as cameras etc... You can just use a simple audio plug jack (or similar) and use it as a pin. When the pin is inserted, power is disabled, when the pin is removed, power is applied.
 
...

Actually, the Q1 arrangement is a great circuit for use with powering payload electronics, such as cameras etc... You can just use a simple audio plug jack (or similar) and use it as a pin. When the pin is inserted, power is disabled, when the pin is removed, power is applied.
Doesn't this rely on the jack contacts being insensitive to high G acceleration or vibration? Unless the jack is oriented so that the motion is horizontal, I would think there's a good chance that the power would be interrupted either during the positive G load after ignition or the negative G load during deployment. Even mounted horizontally, I would think that some capacitance across the contacts would be necessary to insure vibrational insensitivity.

Bob
 
Doesn't this rely on the jack contacts being insensitive to high G acceleration or vibration? Unless the jack is oriented so that the motion is horizontal, I would think there's a good chance that the power would be interrupted either during the positive G load after ignition or the negative G load during deployment. Even mounted horizontally, I would think that some capacitance across the contacts would be necessary to insure vibrational insensitivity.

Bob

No, thats the beauty of it. Power is activated by REMOVING the plug which creates an open circuit at the plug terminals. Use used a P-channel MOSFET where when the plug is inserted, the gate of the MOSFET is tied to the source of the MOSFET, and hence, no conduction. With the plug removed, the gate is pulled low (via pull-down resistor) to your negative rail (RTN) and the MOSFET conducts.

I wouldn't use it for flight critical components (i.e. recovery), but its great for peripheral payloads such as video equipment, etc...

Here are photos of a video system i made using this type of arming switch.

arcas02.jpg


arcas03.jpg


arcas04.jpg


arcas05.jpg
 
Back
Top