Goofy Question about Airfoil Kites

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I asked this same question of a couple of experience parachutists. The same answer from all of them was the putting a tail on the kite or parasail chute will not make it move the rocket into the wind.

The rocket is moving with the air mass as it comes down, that's why it drifts. Relative to the rocket, the wind speed is ZERO. The kite or parasail or what ever type of forward moving chute will go in what ever direction it wants and that direction and speed vector gets added to the wind speed and direction vector to determine where it will come down. They could subtract from each other and it would come down near the pad, or they could add to each other and it would come down a lot further away then a regular chute would.

That is why I'm looking into doing a RC chute like the RC Skydiver use.
 
My thinking is similar but I'll word the reasoning a bit differently.

A parachute is designed to create *drag*, which slows a rocket (or whatever the parachute is attached to) as air moves past it. This air movement past the 'chute is typically created by the object it is attached to "falling" through the air. Assuming no breeze or wind, a rocket falls vertically and the drag force vector of the chute acts in a direction 180 degrees to the direction of travel.

A kite is designed to generate enough *lift* to keep itself aloft, at a bridled angle of attack to the wind direction. For simplicity, lets say the the wind is blowing parallel to the ground, so the net lift force vector (when the angle of attack meets its balance point so that the kite stays at a stationary altitude) is 90 degrees to the wind angle. Basically, the lift the kite generates counteracts the forces of gravity until those two opposing forces acheive balance. Now, not all of the forces that the kite puts on the line are 90 degrees to the wind; the remainder "feels" like drag and translates to the kite flyer as "pull" on the line. Different kites of the same flying surface area will fly at different angles of attack with differing amounts of line pull depending on their ratio of lift vs. drag (among other things)

You can adjust the angle of attack of a kite (by adjusting it's bridle point) to minimize lift and maximize drag (thus optimizing it as a chute) but then, if you tried to fly the kite, it wouldn't rise into the air; you'd just get exaggerated pull on the line and the kite wouldn't rise.

Now, with that in mind, think of using a kite as a chute on a rocket falling from apogee on an otherwise calm and windless day. You have to rotate your point of reference in considering the forces on the kite - the rocket falling vertically creates the air movement that the kite sees (so the wind direction to think of would be blowing vertically from the ground up.) This means that the "lift" is perpendicular to the direction of travel or air movement, which means that the lift direction would be *parallel* to the ground. Great if you want your rocket to glide a long way, but not good for a typical chute application where minimum drift is desireable.

If you adjust the angle of attack of the kite to minimize the "lift" action (thus minimizing drift) you've just turned that pretty kite into a heavy, uniquely shaped and relatively inefficient parachute (because without "lift," a kite just isn't a kite.)

A couple of other things to consider: Parafoil kites need to have the angle of attack that is normal for kite flying (thus creating lift) in order to inflate and behave properly. Further, they would be significantly heavier and bulkier than a parachute of equivalent "drag" in a rocket application.

Considering a "boost glider" application, you can see where a kite might be practical because the net "lift" it generates is basically perpendicular to the wind direction (parallell to the ground if attached like a chute to a falling object.)
 
Would it be possible to use airfoil kites for recovery in a rocket rather than a typical parachute? Has anyone tried this?

https://www.xkitesshop.com/kites/mini-airfoil-kites/mini-airfoil-kites.html

My thinking is that the airfoil would always want to be pointed up wind therefore it might minimize on drift in stiffer winds especially if it has a tail. Thoughts?

-DAllen

For reasons already mentioned, this arrangement won't help the influence of wind.

I remember on my sole parachute jump, the chute (and it was a chute back then, rather than a foil) had a couple of pie-wedge panels left blank. The result was a vent, which propelled it forward. The chute could be steered by pulling on a shroud line on either side.

Had been thinking that with a couple of servo motors, this arrangement could be made to work by RC. A couple of streamers by the vents would make the direction visible from the ground. Push the control lever one way and the line on the left shortens. The other way and it's the line on the right.

Just a thought.

-LarryC
 
My recollection is that those who've tried these in rockets have a devil of a time getting clean deployments.
 
For reasons already mentioned, this arrangement won't help the influence of wind.

I remember on my sole parachute jump, the chute (and it was a chute back then, rather than a foil) had a couple of pie-wedge panels left blank. The result was a vent, which propelled it forward. The chute could be steered by pulling on a shroud line on either side.

Had been thinking that with a couple of servo motors, this arrangement could be made to work by RC. A couple of streamers by the vents would make the direction visible from the ground. Push the control lever one way and the line on the left shortens. The other way and it's the line on the right.

Just a thought.

-LarryC

Larry,

That is exactly what I intent to try, but with a 7 cell wing type chute. I'll post something when I get far enought along. Might be next spring. Lots of engineering and testing going into this one.

Mark,

I am sure you are exacty correct on the deployment issues. Looking at preliminary designs and ideas, the deployment is definately the biggest challenge.
 
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