Single use vs. reloadable

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John - Is CTI producing 29mm motors yet? I bought a Pro29 case last summer before realizing the predicament they were in and haven't been able to use it because I'm limited to less than L1 G motors.

I wouldn't have a clue. Contact your vendor. I believe they are producing 29, 38, and 54mm motors, but at a limited rate. 75mm and up are every scarce.
 
Given the supply problems, I'd lean toward Aerotech for 29mm anyway, even with an onsite CTI vendor. The 29/40-120 is a real bargain, and in high power almost all of the 29mm HPR reloads ship non-HAZMAT (Aerotech even ships a few non-HAZMAT 38mm motors now).

Good to support your local vendor obviously, but they can't sell what they can't stock. That said the CTI 29s are great motors, just pricey and currently slim pickings. But the cases are pretty cheap, all things considered, so I embrace the healing power of "AND" and fly both.
 
Versatility, and where do you want to go from here? If you are happy launching the same three rockets with the same three SU motors, and you can cover the cost, why change?

But if you plan to expand into high power and build more versatile rockets, you will need a variety of motors. More thrust for windy days, more impulse for higher waivers, more thrust and more impulse for that Mach attempt.

Besides that, I think most people start to get bored doing the same thing over and over again, and like new challenges. Building motors is fun once you get used to it. And then it start to open up avenues into research motors, etc.

I have one word of advice, however. Since you are in DC, if you ever think you might join MDRA and go high power, then consider CTI instead of AT. Our field vendor exclusively sells CTI motors, and you can buy them on-site with no shipping and no HAZMAT fees.

I would like to make about a dozen launches a year between NOVAAR in VA and MDRA in MD. I would love to fly 12' high rocket with the $300 motor in it but that's not going to happen. My comfort zone is to not spend more than say $80 in a day of flying rockets. I used an Aerotech composite motor for the first time at the NOVAAR launch in The Plains, VA which I bought from Performance Hobbies. I put a G motor into my Estes Ventris and she took off! Got some ohhs and ahhs from the crowd. $30 for 2 G motors? Initially I was whining to myself about LPR motors being $3.50 each but I can handle this. Add a couple Econjet Fs for my Estes V2 and a 38mm H for my Loc Precision 4" V2 i want to buy and I think I am good. That's a bit over the $80 budget but not by much.

I already belong to NOVAAR but I also plan on joining MDRA. The NOVAAR launches have Aerotech gear.

You've all made a compelling argument but for someone new to the hobby I think the best course of action starting out is just to build a few kits, get some SU motors, join a club or two (or three), and get out there and fly and get to know your fellow rocket folk.
 
Has anyone mentioned the Loki 38/120 yet? Three loads there that don't require HazMat or an L1 cert, plus several more after a person gets that cert.
 
More for the high power motors.. If you think you might be interested in research motors, consider Loki. They have a bunch of H/I loads for 38mm that ship non-hazmat, and snap ring cases are easier to do research motors with in the future.

That said, for a first reload case, it's hard to go wrong with the AT 29/40-120. Lots of reasonably priced reloads in a variety of impulse/thrust levels.

I have the AT 18mm, that I don't fly a lot but it's occasionally a fun option. And the AT 24/40. The 24mm can be a lot of fun with Estes and other LPR kits. The F12 load is one of my favorites for those.
 
Well, I don't really have a local vendor, so...

This is why I recommend AT 29/40-120 & Loki 38/120. Save huge on HazMat fees while still being able to choose a lot of different thrust profiles.

Often people who don't have vendor access also don't have a lot of waiver launches nearby, so staying under FAR101 is important.
 
John - Is CTI producing 29mm motors yet? I bought a Pro29 case last summer before realizing the predicament they were in and haven't been able to use it because I'm limited to less than L1 G motors.

CTI started the small 1-grain 29mm motors early since that's a motor in high demand for TARC. AMW has a bunch of different 1 grain 29mm motors in stock and a few 2 grain. It looks like they're out of the 1-grain smoky--I've seen a lot of those flying with TARC teams this year. The 2 grain options for CTI in general are a lot more limited if you need to stick under 80N average thrust.
 
The more I learn the more questions I have. I'll be at LDRS on the 7th and 8th. I'll have the chance to pick many brains there and perhaps see what bargains (if any) are available. If you see a short guy with a Brooklyn Dodgers cap (no, the "B" isn't for Boston..) and carrying a boom mic and camera gear that's probably me. Thanks for all how chimed in.
 
Variety and cost savings over time (if you fly frequently) are the attractions of reloadable motors. I stayed with single use for some time before the AP addiction kicked up a notch or two. For Aerotech reloads, the 24/40 and the 29/40-120 cases are almost universally recommended as the gateway enablers because of the range of reload kits available that don't require certification. One thing to be aware of when shopping Aerotech reloads is variety of cases and the reload kits that go with them. The Hardware/Reload Kit XREF is you friend:

aerotech case-reload kit xref 2016.jpg

https://www.aerotech-rocketry.com/u...4792e3bc3e9_AT RMS Matrix Black and White.pdf

https://www.aerotech-rocketry.com/products2.aspx


With great choice comes great responsibility. :)
 
While the hobby line 29mm cases are cool and have a lot of motor choices, I prefer AT's 29mm RMS line. Plenty of choices in motors that let you fly larger projects. Motors are still hazmat free.
 
While the hobby line 29mm cases are cool and have a lot of motor choices, I prefer AT's 29mm RMS line. Plenty of choices in motors that let you fly larger projects. Motors are still hazmat free.

I thought I'd be flying piles of 29/40-120 loads, so I got six cases. Quickly found out I preferred the core burning G79 and G77 to the slot burning G64 and G71 (which is defunct anyways) The G138T is an interesting motor, but in my opinion not worth the risk. So that leaves F52's and G76G's that interest me.... and I found myself preferring to fly 180/240 motors pretty quickly. Considering the cost of a 180 is $18 and a 240 reload is only about $22.... I dumped all but two hobbyline cases and sold my 120 cases.

If I had to do it all over again, I'd have started with a set of 180/240/360 cases (man I love those 360s)
 
I made the plunge. Yesterday somone at a launch sold me his 29 40-120 case for $25. The only problem is I am having a tough time getting it into my Ventris. Would rubbing with wax paper help? Any other suggestions?

reloadable_case.jpg
 
I'd guess your Ventris tube has some glue in it. Check w/ flashlight and pick off w/ exacto and/or lightly sand.
 
An R/C club member gave me an AT 29mm case yesterday, so now I have to learn about AT reloads. I also need to learn how to clean the case he gave me.
 
An R/C club member gave me an AT 29mm case yesterday, so now I have to learn about AT reloads. I also need to learn how to clean the case he gave me.

First, clean the case while it's still warm if you can. If not, it's not the end of the world.
Remove both closures.
Push on the nozzle to push the liner out. I keep the plastic the reload came in and I push the liner into that. If it's a reload that uses the seal disk, how's the time to collect it rather than throwing it away accidentally.
Get yourself a brush that is just slightly bigger than the bore of the motor. Use it to scrub the inside of the case, then wrap a baby wipe or wet paper towel around it and wipe it out. You'll see the wipe come out with a tint of red from the die used when the case was anodized. That's not a problem; it's only die and doesn't affect the anodizing.
If you get a ring of buildup near the closures use a scotchbrite pad to scrub it away.
Clean the closures with baby wipes also.

Once in a while I don't get the case cleaned right away. Then I just take them into the house and clean them using dish soap and water. Clean the sink when you're done!


Steve Shannon
 
The first couple times I flew reloadables it took me forever to get the spent reloads out of my cases, and I thought this is really going to suck. I've since done the following, and it's a breeze now:
1) Check the fit of the grain liner in the case before final loading. If it requires any force to fit in the case, peel of a layer of the cardboard and/or sand until it slides smoothly into the case
2) Grease the liner liberally before final insertion (I do this after I've already built up the delay section to avoid getting stray grease on it)
3) I always carry a jug of water, a roll of paper towels, and a stout dowel to the field for immediate cleanup
4) When possible, get all the big parts out of the casing while it's still warm. After unscrewing both closures I use the dowel to push the nozzle through the case, which smoothly forces out the spent liner and O-rings. The delay bits can be picked out with fingers or needle nose pliers.
5) At the field, I'll run one or two damp paper towels through the case to wipe out the worst of the grime. This is usually sufficient to re-fly the case that day if I need to.
6) At home, they'll get a more thorough scrubbing with soap and water and an old toothbrush or bottle brush. For really stuck-on grime, gun cleaning solvents are helpful.
 
Your question opens up a large can of worms. Many people prefer the reloads for a number of reasons. Saving money is always at the top of the list. Best way to answer your own question is, how much flying do you want to do? And how much am I really saving with reloads? Crunch a few numbers and you'll find out. My flying habits are different than a lot of others, but so is everyone's for that matter. If you don't expect to fly a lot of rockets in a day and are content to spend most of your time loading and cleaning motor casings, then reloads may be just fine for you. My average liftoff count in a day is around 9-13 rockets, and that's because I'm in no hurry. I'm sure if I rushed it, I could get 20 or so in.

(prices below can vary depending on where you buy and how you buy) Used casings could also mean a savings here)

Aerotech 24/40/120 sells for 65.00 (eeeks!)
F-22 reload is 15.00
F-32 SU is 19.00 (a 4$ savings on fuel cost) (sorry I couldn't provide equal motors in both versions)
It's going to take 17 uses for you to break even on that motor casing and you'll spend a large amount of time prepping and cleaning it. People have suggested buying a quantity of casings and pre-load them for more flights in a day. RED FLAG! Now you have to break even on all of them.

Mind you, there are ways around some of the cost factors, and these numbers came from one source. Not in my best interest to research all the best deals as I am not interested in wasting my time with reloads. Besides, I really don't fly enough MPR motors to make buying reloads a valued investment. And I don't fly HPR at all.

It's all about your flying habits and how you like to spend your time. When I see someone prepping reloads for their rockets. they get 2-3 flights up in a day, on the average. Especially a HPR flight. All the while, I have flown a mix of LPR & MPR with the above mentioned flights per day that I usually get.

Bottom line....If I wanted to spend my day cleaning, I'd have stayed home and done house work.
 
A G78 is $24 SU https://www.siriusrocketry.biz/ishop/aerotech-g78-4g-single-use-motor-hazmat-268.html

A G76 is $11 https://www.wildmanrocketry.com/ProductDetail.aspx?product=509

makes up the hardware a lot faster. On average if you shop around you're still talking 8 to ten in savings on G motors. In larger cases, its more the variety in after than cost savings.

HPR guys are spending most of that time in the rocket, not the motor. I prep my HP motors at home and still spend an hour or two setting up for flight.

Mostnof of the time is prep and recovery, not cleaning motors.

sU are easy and fast. But if you fly any kind of volume, you're throwing money away
 
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The only problem with the small reloadables 18, 24, 29mm jobs is one flies them in too small of a rocket and it's bye-bye time. If one invests in a bunch of reloads and loses the casing, they either sell the reloads for a loss or have to buy a
new casing to use. It's best to use them on a little larger projects that don't go as high. I lost a 24mm casing one time and that really tempered my flying. I did find it later in the season in the "melted-by-the-rain" cardboard rocket recovering
another rocket. Now I have two casings. Kurt
 
I have lost 2 casings in 5 years, a 24/40 and a 24/60. That is about $100 retail, so $20 per year. When I look at how long I had them it doesn't hurt as bad. I also learned a lot from the experiences. I will never built an MPR with a hook retainer again.
The only single use motors I have/have flown were purchased on clearance at Hobby Lobby. I really do not see a time savings as my cases are loaded and cleaned at home, not taking my time at the field.

If I fly BP motors, I can get in several flights. AP flights just seem to take longer to get prepped (not including the motor assembly), so I get 3 maybe 4 at most in the club's 4 hour launch window. I think the majority of the time is taken in recovery (long walks). We will see how much electronic deployment helps.....
 
I thought I'd be flying piles of 29/40-120 loads, so I got six cases. Quickly found out I preferred the core burning G79 and G77 to the slot burning G64 and G71 (which is defunct anyways) The G138T is an interesting motor, but in my opinion not worth the risk. So that leaves F52's and G76G's that interest me.... and I found myself preferring to fly 180/240 motors pretty quickly. Considering the cost of a 180 is $18 and a 240 reload is only about $22.... I dumped all but two hobbyline cases and sold my 120 cases.

If I had to do it all over again, I'd have started with a set of 180/240/360 cases (man I love those 360s)

I totally agree. I am flying less and less these days for several reasons, mostly conflicting interest. I can see myself selling off the 38mm cases but never the 29mm. They have always been my favorite anyway and have said so more than once. To me they still are a hobby. Once you go bigger they become more of a job. I am lazy and I don't like to work so that creates some issues with me. The RMS 29's are too sweet for words.
 
I totally agree. I am flying less and less these days for several reasons, mostly conflicting interest. I can see myself selling off the 38mm cases but never the 29mm. They have always been my favorite anyway and have said so more than once. To me they still are a hobby. Once you go bigger they become more of a job. I am lazy and I don't like to work so that creates some issues with me. The RMS 29's are too sweet for words.

I enjoy flying something big and DD about once a weekend now. Anything more is stress. I can grab my Optima and feed it any 29mm RMS load pretty much all day long. Single deploy, Throw 3-4 motors in my pocket and fly- recover - repack it out on the field and walk right back and drop it on a pad....

I built a 38mm Optima, and it flies the same way on loki 38/120's. Hop and Pop.
 
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