"FFg" BP for DD?

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talkin Monkey

talkin Monkey

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Just picked up some Hodgdon Triple Se7en "FFg" black powder to expeiriment with Dual Deployment charges regarding the current requirments .("I" VS "E")

I know that the E-Match vendors recommend 4F or maybe 3F BP for DD, but the guy with the key to the 18 and older stuff at Fleet Farm was new and couldn't answer my questions regarding 3F/4F-BP...., so I just grabbed the most expensive BP on the shelf because I didn't see any 3 or 4"F"....Yup, a whole POUND intelligent purchase in the locker now.

AFTER the FACT of PURCHASE..as usual... I researched WIKI on BP and found that there is a whole science as to grain size/expansion rate/formulas.

Looks like it "FFg" might be more bang vs weight but more BTU/(I) to ignite IMO.

Does anybody have any experience with Hodgdon Triple Se7en "FFg" black powder or any words of wisdom there of?

:monkey:
 
Talkin Monkey said:
Just picked up some Hodgdon Triple Se7en "FFg" black powder to expeiriment with Dual Deployment charges regarding the current requirments .("I" VS "E")

I know that the E-Match vendors recommend 4F or maybe 3F BP for DD, but the guy with the key to the 18 and older stuff at Fleet Farm was new and couldn't answer my questions regarding 3F/4F-BP...., so I just grabbed the most expensive BP on the shelf because I didn't see any 3 or 4"F"....Yup, a whole POUND intelligent purchase in the locker now.

AFTER the FACT of PURCHASE..as usual... I researched WIKI on BP and found that there is a whole science as to grain size/expansion rate/formulas.

Looks like it "FFg" might be more bang vs weight but more BTU/(I) to ignite IMO.

Does anybody have any experience with Hodgdon Triple Se7en "FFg" black powder or any words of wisdom there of?

:monkey:
Click to expand...

I use triple 7 in all my DD rockets and have not had a problem with it. It does have to be contained more than BP. Also Triple seven is not black powder it is pyrodex.
 
I bought a small 4F container from a friend (like 6oz I think) and bought some pyrodex at Walmart. I use the 2f for ground testing. That gets me in the range. Then for flight I mix in a little 4f with the 2F. Sounds weird and some people might not like it but it works.

Ben

P.S. when I mix the 2F and 4F I make sure it is the same gram (maybe a tiny bit more)
 
[self edit]

to krsconstruction and everybody else,

"read" too far into WIKI and got it wrong



I thought "Pyrodex" was more "brand" than chemistry and required seperate ignition methods...my
dumb........sorry...:cry:

Too much R+D and not enough thinking


...Instead of trying to re-invent the wheel here,

What are you using to set off DD charges with your RRC2?...using Triple Se7en?
 
Talkin Monkey said:
[self edit]

to krsconstruction and everybody else,

"read" too far into WIKI and got it wrong



I thought "Pyrodex" was more "brand" than chemistry and required seperate ignition methods...my
dumb........sorry...:cry:

Too much R+D and not enough thinking


...Instead of trying to re-invent the wheel here,

What are you using to set off DD charges with your RRC2?...using Triple Se7en?
Click to expand...

I will tell you my Perfectlight MAWD, HA45, and RRC2 classic both worked fine to set off the charges. I put dog barf to fill the charge holder and reslly press it in. Then I put a stip of masking tape over it them get the aluminum tape to give it a final seal.

Ben
 
Here is the explination of black powder grain sizes.
F (1F) powder is the corses giain avaiable. good in large bulk items like artilery guns .
FF (2F) powder is good for canons and shot gun loads. It is ground smaller than F powder.
FFF (3F) powder is ground finer than 2F is and is used in rifles and pistols from .30 to .62 cal. It has a lower ignition point than 2F and will burn faster also.
FFFF (4F) powder is used in flint locks for priming the flash pan. It is ground finer than 3F and has even a lower ignition rate and will burn even faster than 3F.
Flash powder or FFFF (5F) is what they used on the photo shoots in that day long past. very quick burnning and very fine grind, finer than 4F. You can find fine grind powder in fire crackers now days that would be the equivelnt to flash. Powder is measured in grains as with most other poders that is used for shooting and in shot gun loads it is differnt.
Black powder is measured in its volume not weight but it still goes by the grain measurment.
there is 7000 grains of powder to a pound no mater if it is black or smokless powder.
I still have not figured out where you all have gotten that powder is figured in grams but hey rocketry is a differnt world than shooting and reloading so measure it the way you want and I will do it the other way.
 
uncrichie said:
Scott, your spending entirely too much on rocketry. Save up for some shoes:rotflol: Uncrichie.
Click to expand...

Uncrichie,

Yah, maybe you're right. Wife and kids are lookin a tad on the skinny side lately. Noticed the dog has been "sleeping" for over a week as well.

:lol: ,

:monkey:
 
KDRaven said:
Here is the explination of black powder grain sizes.
F (1F) powder is the corses giain avaiable. good in large bulk items like artilery guns .
FF (2F) powder is good for canons and shot gun loads. It is ground smaller than F powder.
FFF (3F) powder is ground finer than 2F is and is used in rifles and pistols from .30 to .62 cal. It has a lower ignition point than 2F and will burn faster also.
FFFF (4F) powder is used in flint locks for priming the flash pan. It is ground finer than 3F and has even a lower ignition rate and will burn even faster than 3F.
Flash powder or FFFF (5F) is what they used on the photo shoots in that day long past. very quick burnning and very fine grind, finer than 4F. You can find fine grind powder in fire crackers now days that would be the equivelnt to flash. Powder is measured in grains as with most other poders that is used for shooting and in shot gun loads it is differnt.
Black powder is measured in its volume not weight but it still goes by the grain measurment.
there is 7000 grains of powder to a pound no mater if it is black or smokless powder.
I still have not figured out where you all have gotten that powder is figured in grams but hey rocketry is a differnt world than shooting and reloading so measure it the way you want and I will do it the other way.
Click to expand...

I have known that BP was measured in grains but its easier to measure in grams on a scale than grains. That is why I make my charges in GRAMS.

Ben
 
I understand the scales and I have been in the relaoding and shooting world longer than in the rocketry world. My powder scales weighs in grains and in grams but I have it set for grains and I also have a scale that weighs in pounds and ounces and it is great to weigh parts or the total rocket.
 
If I remember right Pyrodex is actually gun cotton, not, BP. So hence it's why it requires more to ignite. I could be wrong. I've read too much on this stuff a couple of weeks ago and I've slept a few times since. lol

I think for the large part reloads for shells is such a small amount that grains makes more sense. If you're putting grams inside of shells I'm staying back. lol Also a lot of the tools for calculating how much to put in for DD and these ease of finding stuff to measure in grams is easier.

Anyway in the Modern High Power Rocketry 2 book it talks about ground-testing you DD. This way you can use either powder but know how it reacts to your particular setup. Weight of the nosecone, how tight things fit, etc. will effect the whole setup. For me I wouldn't mind wasting a couple of grams to feel comfortable things will seperate nicely with some confidence.

Michael
 
mrmonteith said:
Anyway in the Modern High Power Rocketry 2 book it talks about ground-testing you DD. This way you can use either powder but know how it reacts to your particular setup. Weight of the nosecone, how tight things fit, etc. will effect the whole setup. For me I wouldn't mind wasting a couple of grams to feel comfortable things will seperate nicely with some confidence.

Michael
Click to expand...

BINGO!! What you said there is on the money. Always ground test. I test all of my setups. I order all my chutes, recovery parts, etc. Load it up as if it were launch day. Set it in teh yard and brace it good. Then I hook my charges through the vent holes. Put 20 feet of wire between me and the charges. Countdown and set it off. I am glad I ground tested because I used a calculator online and set it for 200lbs of force since I have 4 shear pins. I even loaded the charge on the upper end of the recomended. The nosecone barely came off and fell to the ground!

Ben
 
I just did the conversion again and 1 gram is 15.43 grains. So if you use 1.5 grams to eject you are using 23 grains of powder which is almost what I use in my .50 cal pistol. 20 grains to shoot a 190 grain round ball. I use 50 grains in my rifle which is 3.2 grams. The old .45 colts used 30 to 40 grains to shoot a 250 grain bullet to around 850 to 900 fps.

But hey grains, grams as long as your are measuring it in some way and not just looking at it and thinking thats enough and when you realy used a pound or so.:surprised:. just be safe and everyone will be happy.
 
mrmonteith said:
If I remember right Pyrodex is actually gun cotton, not, BP. So hence it's why it requires more to ignite. I could be wrong. I've read too much on this stuff a couple of weeks ago and I've slept a few times since. lol

I think for the large part reloads for shells is such a small amount that grains makes more sense. If you're putting grams inside of shells I'm staying back. lol Also a lot of the tools for calculating how much to put in for DD and these ease of finding stuff to measure in grams is easier.

Anyway in the Modern High Power Rocketry 2 book it talks about ground-testing you DD. This way you can use either powder but know how it reacts to your particular setup. Weight of the nosecone, how tight things fit, etc. will effect the whole setup. For me I wouldn't mind wasting a couple of grams to feel comfortable things will seperate nicely with some confidence.

Michael
Click to expand...

It does not take anymore to light pyrodex than it does to light BP. The problem with pyrodex is that it burns slower so it must be contained better for it to burn completely to build pressure.
 
Weekend Scientist,

Thanks for the explaination of BP F~FFFF labeling and uses. I found it very informative. More F's = higher oxidation rate per volume/contaiment?

I was busy @ WIKI, came back and found that you and some others had already posted my reply...(1#=7kGrains=4536 Grams?)

...many,many questions here regarding .17HMR charge vs .50BMG charge (in grains) AND projectile weight in "grains". (a whole different subject and not appropriate for this post....(I think? Chime in if I'm wrong)

Back on track here, from what I "think" I understand, the 777 (2F) BP that I bought requires more "energy" and compression to oxidize/react than let's say 3F or 4F BP...And, from what I've gotten out of the DD product lines online, they all seem to require some proprietarily igniter + recipe involving sporting goods +acetone.

Once again, probably reading too much instead of thinking/researching.

Does anybody have a RRC2 + low current legally available ignition setup?
 
Some technical corrections.

1.) Black Powder is charcoal, potassium nitrate and sulfur. Charcoal is the fuel, and potassium nitrate is the oxidizer. Sulfur is a sensitizer and oxidizer. It make black powder easy to ignite but it also makes black powder stinky and corrosive.

2.) Pyrodex(R) is black powder with potassium perchlorate added. It is more energetic than black powder but is harder to ignite and burns slower than BP at a given pressure and particle size. Because it has sulfur, Pyrodex(R) is corrosive and stinky and it also make hydrochloric acid. https://www.hodgdon.com/pyrodex/pyrodex-msds.php

3.) Triple 7(R) is Pyrodex(R) without the sulfur. It is more energetic than Pyrodex but because it does not have sulfur, and it is not considered corrosive although it make hydrochloric acid. https://www.hodgdon.com/tripleseven/msds-tripleseven.php

4.) Smokeless powder is nitrocellulose, AKA gun cotton or single base. Unlike black powder, Pyrodex(R) or Triple 7(R), nitrocellulose is a monopropellant - a molecule that is part fuel and part oxidizer - and is far more energetic than black powder, Pyrodex(R) or Triple 7(R) because there are no solid reaction products. https://www.hodgdon.com/smokeless/ADI-H4227-Varget-Retumbo.pdf

Propellants burn from the outside so the surface area per unit weight and the pressure determines the rate of pressure rise. Larger particles burnout slower than smaller particles so the pressure rises faster in a container of fine grain powders than in one with bigger grains, however the burn rate of BP is so fast that in rocket applications that grain size really doesn't make much difference.

Bob
 
Bob-
Don't forget not all smokeless powders are single base nitrocellulose; many are dual base propellants consisting of nitrocellulose AND nitroglycerine.

Many of the propellants I have on shelf that I use for one of my other numerous hobbies (reloading) are of the dual-base variety.
 
I think KDRaven is a teeny bit off on his definition of flash powder.

It has always been my understanding that flash powder, at least as used by old-time photographers (poured on a plate, held on a handle in the air, "pointed" toward the photo subject, ignited at the instant that a picture is taken) is something quite different than gunpowder or blackpowder. Flash powder uses a much stronger oxidizer than KNO3, and a metal fuel. It burns much more violently than blackpowder. It pretty much does everything much more violently than blackpowder, including going off if you look at it wrong.

Flash powder was used only because the combustion of the particular metal produced a brilliant flash of light, which was necessary to get a decent exposure onto the old-time photographic films. As film chemistry improved, and re-usable camera flash systems developed, the need for flash powder went away.

Flash powder is orders-of-magnitude more dangerous than blackpowder to prepare, store, transport, use, and/or dispose of. IIRC, it is in a special category designated as "high explosive" and has a whole different set of government rules than blackpowder. I cannot recommend that anyone try to fool around with this stuff.

As to the powders used in many current firecrackers, these are generally not finely-ground blackpowder either. Firecrackers usually use a mixture of powdered aluminum and a very strong oxidizer.
 
Old time photographers used Magnesium based Flash Powder (finely divided magnesium and potassium perchlorate (KCLO4)). The Magnesium is what gave it the brilliant white light. Very sensitive stuff.

Flash powder has many faces. The most common is aluminum based flash powder (finely divided aluminum and potassium perchlorate). This is what is used in most firecrackers. A little less sensitive than the magnesium blend, but not by enough to make much difference. Aluminum/KClO4 is also what the old M-80's used. Powerful enough to cause serious bodily harm and highly illegal for the average guy to possess or use.

Flash Powder is kind of like Thermite. Thermite (too many compositions to list, the most common being aluminum and iron oxide) has hundreds of different variations. Most Thermites are not especially sensitive, however there are exceptions (finely divided magnesium and copper oxide for one) which has been successfully used with e-matches to ignite large clusters of very large rocket motors. If you remember the TV series called "Master Blasters", all of the motors shown were lit with Mg/Cu2O.

Actual ratios and screen sizes have been omitted due to TRF regulations.

Hope this information helps.
 
powderburner said:
I think KDRaven is a teeny bit off on his definition of flash powder.

It has always been my understanding that flash powder, at least as used by old-time photographers (poured on a plate, held on a handle in the air, "pointed" toward the photo subject, ignited at the instant that a picture is taken) is something quite different than gunpowder or blackpowder. Flash powder uses a much stronger oxidizer than KNO3, and a metal fuel. It burns much more violently than blackpowder. It pretty much does everything much more violently than blackpowder, including going off if you look at it wrong.

Flash powder was used only because the combustion of the particular metal produced a brilliant flash of light, which was necessary to get a decent exposure onto the old-time photographic films. As film chemistry improved, and re-usable camera flash systems developed, the need for flash powder went away.

Flash powder is orders-of-magnitude more dangerous than blackpowder to prepare, store, transport, use, and/or dispose of. IIRC, it is in a special category designated as "high explosive" and has a whole different set of government rules than blackpowder. I cannot recommend that anyone try to fool around with this stuff.

As to the powders used in many current firecrackers, these are generally not finely-ground blackpowder either. Firecrackers usually use a mixture of powdered aluminum and a very strong oxidizer.
Click to expand...
Powderburner

You are 100% correct. Flash powder is not black powder.

From what I learned back in high school in the dark ages, the first photographic flash power was lycopodium powder.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lycopodium

It gives a very bright flash when burned rapidly. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztX2a8fRaXM# https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SSdNOMCzqo&feature=related

This was superceded in the 1880's by the more conventional flash powder. In 1887 Adolf Miethe and Johannes Gaedicke, both German, introduced a product they called Blitzlichtpulver, or “lightning light powder.” This was a powdered mixture of magnesium, potassium chlorate and antimony sulfide placed inside a shallow pan. When set alight the powder exploded in a burst of blinding light.

https://photonotes.org/cgi-bin/entry.pl?id=Flashpowder

https://www.rleggat.com/photohistory/history/lighting.htm

Modern flash powders use powdered aluminum and it is a high explosive and extremely dangerous in gram plus quantities. [Legal firecrackers can not contain more than 50 milligrams of flash powder.] It has absolutely no legimate use in hobby rocketry.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_powder

Bob
 
I will admit that my idealogy of flash powder is off and I thank you for your input on it. I have not had the chance to deal with flash powder and I realy dont want to and I know that firecracker powder is differnt than BP but flash and cracker powder defintaly burn at faster rates than BP does and even I dont recommend using it in the rockerty world or even in shooting, as with using smokeless powders in rockerty either because its burn propertys are differnt than BP.

I use FFF or 3F powder because that is what I use for my .50 cal muzzelloader and I have it instead of 4F. I like regular BP over Pyrodex or any other type of BP subistute powder, but that is me and I can get BP through the muzzlelloading people that I know and dont have to buy the other stuff. But you use what you use and if Bp was outlawed then I might have to use CO2, springs, or rubberbands for ejection charges.
 

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