Sticker shock - MAWD

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AKPilot

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Well, I thought I'd get started on my Level 3 project this week by ordering the altimeters (MAWDs). I guess I'm starting on a different part of my Thumper, because the sticker shock hit me when I went to order two (redundancy). Yikes . . . over $200!

Can't say I'll be ordering those before Christmas . . . unless that is my Christmas.
 
If it helps, price out two RDAS's.
$200 will seem easy. :D
 
Its worth it as I have never had an issue with them not that was operator error and used 2 for my level 3 project. They worked flawlessly...

Dennis
 
Well, I thought I'd get started on my Level 3 project this week by ordering the altimeters (MAWDs). I guess I'm starting on a different part of my Thumper, because the sticker shock hit me when I went to order two (redundancy). Yikes . . . over $200!

Can't say I'll be ordering those before Christmas . . . unless that is my Christmas.

If it makes you feel any better, there's been zero inflation in the altimeter market for the past decade! I'm pretty sure my ALTS2 cost about a hundred bucks, and that was some 12 years ago. Motors and kits have gone up, but altimeters don't seem to have risen in price (which I suppose is typical of electronics)

-Rick
 
Well, I thought I'd get started on my Level 3 project this week by ordering the altimeters (MAWDs). I guess I'm starting on a different part of my Thumper, because the sticker shock hit me when I went to order two (redundancy). Yikes . . . over $200!

Can't say I'll be ordering those before Christmas . . . unless that is my Christmas.

Yep that's correct
99.00 each and I swear by these, one rock solid system

if your eyes say YES and the pocket book go's ouch, you may try the HiAlt45K dual event altimeter @ 79.00 each, same quality no logging, or maybe even one of each type. Just don't cheap out on the battery connectors, get good ones or your rocket may go OUCH. That is one of the biggest mistakes that rocketeers make.

Good luck, and a small suggestion, Add real fiberglass to that Thumper airframe, that thin glass/gelcoat is great for looks, but offers little in the strength.
 
If you are looking for redundacy (assuming both MAWDS are for the same rocket) why are you putting in two of the same model of altimeter?

If you wanted to only use PerfectFlite altimeters, then use one MAWD and one HiAlt45?
Or step out of the PerfectFlite box and try one of the Parrot altimeters (or something similar) with a MAWD.

I personally prefer baro and acceleration sensors on a flight controller, but these do not meet your price point.


John
 
If you are looking for redundacy (assuming both MAWDS are for the same rocket) why are you putting in two of the same model of altimeter?

There seems to be some sort of misunderstanding of how redundancy works. If the altimeter has a proven track record of being highly reliable with minimum problems, then there is no reason other than paranoia to use two of the same altimeter for redundancy.

Redundant systems in aircraft, satellites, etc... don't use *different* types of circuits in their redundant systems. They use identical components.
I recently designed a power supply for a payload for the F22. Requirements were for N+1 redundancy on the power supplies. Did i use a different power supply for
each redundant supply? No.

If the altimeter was an experimental system or new design, then i'd be a bit wary, but if its already proven itself (which i think its safe to say the MAWD has), then there shouldn't be an issue.
 
There seems to be some sort of misunderstanding of how redundancy works.

Redundant systems in aircraft, satellites, etc... don't use *different* types of circuits in their redundant systems. They use identical components.

Being in the U.S.A.F. all those years (22) that's exactly the way we do it. It's the same component carried twice.

Imagine what would happen to your supply chain and spare parts if you had to start carrying two different systems. Your inventory, spares, and bench stock would be huge.
 
if your eyes say YES and the pocket book go's ouch, you may try the HiAlt45K dual event altimeter @ 79.00 each, ...

That's what I was thinking (and the route I'm probably going in the future). The other one I'm looking at is the new MissleWorks RRC2, when it comes out...That one is projected to be just a smidge over the HiAlt45K.
 
There seems to be some sort of misunderstanding of how redundancy works. If the altimeter has a proven track record of being highly reliable with minimum problems, then there is no reason other than paranoia to use two of the same altimeter for redundancy.

Redundant systems in aircraft, satellites, etc... don't use *different* types of circuits in their redundant systems. They use identical components.
I recently designed a power supply for a payload for the F22. Requirements were for N+1 redundancy on the power supplies. Did i use a different power supply for
each redundant supply? No.

If the altimeter was an experimental system or new design, then i'd be a bit wary, but if its already proven itself (which i think its safe to say the MAWD has), then there shouldn't be an issue.

I'll agree - and disagree. (What a shock). The main point - that using two different altimeters won't help vs using two copies of the same one is probably right. However the point you make about why is not really applicable in my view.

The redundant systems you speak of are highly tested and engineered to much more exacting standards than consumer grade rocket altimeters. In addition the rigorous testing given these systems you are talking about should expose many common failure scenarios before they happen during a mission. This cannot be said for consumer altimeters mounted into home grown altimeter bays. One baro altimeter may react differently to a short pressure spike caused by a turbulent airflow over a less than ideal surface from another. Without a lot of in-air testing of the e-bay and the altimeters in a particular rocket - it's not clear if adding an additional brand/style altimeter will or will not increase reliability over just using two of the same altimeters.

In some cases the net effect might be to LOWER reliability - due to the face that you have increased the number of potential failures. Two altimeter brands might have two different failure modes that are rare. But two rare events taken one at a time (love that combinatory math) is more likely than one rare event taken one at a time. In other cases - the failure of one may only result in an early main deployment (at apogee for example) vs. a failed deployment. My point is that it's hard to say what will happen.

I suspect most people fly with two different altimeters because they don't buy the same altimeter and like having different features for different purposes. Rather than buy two of the same when it comes time to fly something like an L3 sized bird - they scrape up what they have and make it work.

The big fear I have with dual altimeters of dissimilar features is that user error is more likely in this scenario and that is where I think most of the problems will come from.

Even with these objections - ask me if I fly dual altimeters with the same brand/features... er... no. Do as I say, not as I do... <grin>.
 
Dissimilar redundancy is also an important goal in systems with really high reliability requirements, like manned spaceflight. The estimate that our projct is using is that a certain percentage of all failures of a piece of hardware would also take out an identical, redundant piece of hardware. This is called "common cause failure." All airliners also have some form of manual backup in case the 3 or 5 flight computers they are using have a common-cause failure. In June, the ISS lost all of its (Russian) attitude computers at once because of water condesnation on a "power off" line that went to all three computers :rolleyes:. D'0h!

It's not that hard to come up with a scenario in which dissimilar altimeters could bail you out. For example, let's say you had an altimeter with a user-settable mach delay, and the delay you set was too long because of instability, an airframe failure, or just user error. If your backup altimeter had an accel-based mach inhibit, ;) it could keep the pieces from landing on someone's car.

That's not to take away from the other points people have made about having twice as many opportunities for error with different altimeters, and just keeping it simple by using the same type twice. This is the sort of trade-off that engineers get into arguments about every day. I think the right answer would depend on other factors, like how interested are you in collecting different types of data (like acceleration, useful for calculating Cd), and how much do you mind learning how to operate more types of electronics?
 
If that gave you sticker shock, wait until you buy a motor case and reload for your L3. Then look a large chutes, kevlar, price out a little carbon fiber, gallon of good epoxy or maybe do some custom aluminum centering rings, 6" dia nose cone or some Hawk Mountain tubing. Welcome to L3. After all that its real fun when you crash that rocket and get to go buy it all again. Even more joy can be had if you do it with high end electronics like a RDAS. Good times. ;)
 
That's not to take away from the other points people have made about having twice as many opportunities for error with different altimeters, and just keeping it simple by using the same type twice. This is the sort of trade-off that engineers get into arguments about every day. I think the right answer would depend on other factors, like how interested are you in collecting different types of data (like acceleration, useful for calculating Cd), and how much do you mind learning how to operate more types of electronics?

And that's why my L1 cert bird is dual-deployment, withOUT motor backup (the booster is completely sealed, and it flies on 38mm reloads with no ejection charge). My thought was that my altimeter is more reliable than the motor delay, so adding the motor backup is actually increasing the risk.

-Rick (who notes that now that his altimeter has been sitting in a box for 12 years, he no longer trusts it more than motor ejection (at least until it's been tested) so he's going to fly it in a different rocket with motor ejection backup before putting it back in his L1 bird)
 
If you're having sticker shock over the cost of electronics, wait until you see the cost for the propellant of the M motor (not even including the cost for the case) Expect 3 times the cost of the electronics in propellant....which you're going to burn!

There is a reason why people say "open up your wallet" when you get your HPR certifications.

-Aaron
(yeah...I see this has already been said....ignore me, I'm an idiot)
 
If that gave you sticker shock, wait until you buy a motor case and reload for your L3. Then look a large chutes, kevlar, price out a little carbon fiber, gallon of good epoxy or maybe do some custom aluminum centering rings, 6" dia nose cone or some Hawk Mountain tubing. Welcome to L3. After all that its real fun when you crash that rocket and get to go buy it all again. Even more joy can be had if you do it with high end electronics like a RDAS. Good times. ;)

Okay, that brings it all home . . . even after paying the money for the L3 kit.

I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry at this point!:lol::cry:
 
The redundant systems you speak of are highly tested and engineered to much more exacting standards than consumer grade rocket altimeters.

So what? Whether I have a mil-qualified altimeter with a 1,000,000 MTBF or a consumer altimeter with 10 hours MTBF, assuming dissimilar altimeters in the specific class (military, commercial, consumer, etc...) the reliabilty will be on par roughly the same.
 
Redundant systems in aircraft, satellites, etc... don't use *different* types of circuits in their redundant systems. They use identical components.
I recently designed a power supply for a payload for the F22. Requirements were for N+1 redundancy on the power supplies. Did i use a different power supply for each redundant supply? No.

Being in the U.S.A.F. all those years (22) that's exactly the way we do it. It's the same component carried twice.

How much testing such as Thermal, EMI, Stress, Solder Joints and compatibility is available and required for a power supply that is used for an F22 payload? How many other engineers looked at the design and testing?

Or how much testing went into any aircraft component USAF of Civil aviation?

My point is this is a hobby, many of the engineers that have designed products used in this hobby are REAL Engineers and know how to design a product and possible understand risk assesment. However, there is always something unknown. How does each altimeter company test their product? If the appropriate validation testing has been accomplished, don't you think that information would be published with the altimeter? Maybe it is and I have not seen it.


I personnal believe the following (as applied to high powered rocketry):
1) You need to fully know and understand the altimeter that you are using. How will it react to known situtations. What are it's capabilities. What are it's limitations, ect.
2) If you have a need for dual, redundant, backup or what ever you want to call your systems, then you should consider using different devices, to possibly eliminate similar failure modes.
3) Check and recheck all connections, continuity, switches, power and any other appropriate subsystem for your rocket and electronics. (I include recovery components)
4) If something does not look or feel right, it probably isn't. Stop and correct the issue until you know it is right.
5) For most normal flights, if you have good electronics and trust them, why do you think you need to have a redundant system?
6) If you have a high value project; Clustered motors, camcorders, high altitude flight etc. You should consider adding an alternate recovery system, it is generally a very low cost to add a second altimeter when compared to the cost of a big or complex project. (Cheap insurance) I generally do not consider duplicating the staging or motor ignition systems, only the recovery electronics.
7) Get some second opinions to your design or process. This is sometimes humbling, however it can be very constructive.
8) ground test, Ground Test, GROUND TEST

This thread was started as a comment regarding pricing of very common and highly recommend altimeter (Perfectflite MAWD). I do not own one of these, however I too believe that they are a very good product and have recommended them to several individuals. They may be one of the best Barometric Only, Dual Deploy altimeters available. The price actually seems to be very reasonable to me.

If you have other requirements for a rocket, then a basic MAWD may not meet your criteria and you may need to use a product that has the capabilities that you require: programablilty, additional channels, accelerometer, flight recording, telemetery and such.

AKPilot, good luck and have FUN with your L3.


IMO, your experience may vary
John
 
Yea, I forgot there for a moment that my L3 would be expensive. Thanks for grounding me again folks . . .
 
And that's why my L1 cert bird is dual-deployment, withOUT motor backup (the booster is completely sealed, and it flies on 38mm reloads with no ejection charge). My thought was that my altimeter is more reliable than the motor delay, so adding the motor backup is actually increasing the risk.

-Rick (who notes that now that his altimeter has been sitting in a box for 12 years, he no longer trusts it more than motor ejection (at least until it's been tested) so he's going to fly it in a different rocket with motor ejection backup before putting it back in his L1 bird)

My L2 attempt that succeeded was saved by motor ejection. The altimeter functioned correctly - but the main tangled a little. When the motor backup charge went off the violent wiggle of the whole airframe was enough to shake the main free.

My thought is that motor ejection is not accurate - but is never less "reliable" - it will likely go off - maybe earlier or later than expected however. I set my backup ejections to go off a few seconds past apogee so that I have a good chance that if it is early it will not shred. If it's late - hopefully the altimeter already worked and things are moot. Otherwise - well - shred is better than ballistic...
 
My thought is that motor ejection is not accurate - but is never less "reliable" - it will likely go off - maybe earlier or later than expected however...

It's been a decade since I built that rocket, but it's the "earlier" that I was worried about, as late or no ejection adds no risk if you have an altimeter deployed drogue. Perhaps I was simply hedging against my ability (or lack thereof) to properly install the delay grain in the reload? ;).

-Rick
 
Yea, I forgot there for a moment that my L3 would be expensive. Thanks for grounding me again folks . . .

When do you plan to do your L2? (question is based on your sig showing you are L1 working on an L3...)

Johnnie
 
Okay, that brings it all home . . . even after paying the money for the L3 kit.

I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry at this point!:lol::cry:

Hi AK, it was great to meet you at NSL this year.

One thing to think about is to make your L3 bird capable to fly on the three step plan.

THE A8-3

Build the rocket to fly on a K motor A8-3

next Step the B6-4

Fly it on a nice L1115 Pro75 motor

The C6-7

Fly that rocket on a nice M1400, M1882, M1450KBA, or M1850W


The step plan works and helps build expections. Just get buy in from your L3CC or TAP.
 
Motor backup is definitely a very good idea. My first dual deployment flight lawndarted because the apogee charge wasn't strong enough. Motor backup might have saved it. My second dual-deployment flight was saved by motor backup, and I still have no idea why the apogee charge didn't fire (the main did, but melted the chute, so it crashed and cracked a fin).

Just use a long delay and you will be fine as long as you follow the directions for motor assembly.
 
It's been a decade since I built that rocket, but it's the "earlier" that I was worried about, as late or no ejection adds no risk if you have an altimeter deployed drogue.


I agree that early is a worry. I'm saying that you can swap an S for an M and an L for an M in many cases to ensure that this goes off late not early. The concern normally would be a zipper - but this is not the primary recovery method - just along for extra insurance.

Perhaps I was simply hedging against my ability (or lack thereof) to properly install the delay grain in the reload? ;).

Understood. You still have to put the delay grain in correctly or you will end up with blow by - but you don't have to worry about picking the right delay grain.
 
When do you plan to do your L2? (question is based on your sig showing you are L1 working on an L3...)
Johnnie

Working both the L2 & L3 simultaneously.

Not sure when the flights will be - just when they're built. I'm a perfectionist and, totally, stress myself out setting deadlines when it comes to builds. So I simply do a little at a time. My goal is before, or at, LDRS next year. But we'll see . . . I have some very good news, and slight, bad news coming up for next year that could impact plans.

My L2 is a LOC Expediter. My L3 is a 7.5" Polecat Aerospace Thumper, with E-bay extension.
 
Working both the L2 & L3 simultaneously.

Not sure when the flights will be - just when they're built. I'm a perfectionist and, totally, stress myself out setting deadlines when it comes to builds. So I simply do a little at a time. My goal is before, or at, LDRS next year. But we'll see . . . I have some very good news, and slight, bad news coming up for next year that could impact plans.

My L2 is a LOC Expediter. My L3 is a 7.5" Polecat Aerospace Thumper, with E-bay extension.

Hi Ak,

Just an FYI, but NAR requires that you be L2 BEFORE you submit the design of your proposed build of the L3 project.

See line item 1.1 here:

https://www.nar.org/pdf/L3certreq.pdf

"An individual may not submit a design for a Level 3 Certification project review to the L3CC until Level 2 certification has been successfully accomplished"

You may wish to consult with your local L3CC member who you plan to work this out with, as many may want to consult the design before it is built.

edit: PS kewl rocket choices BTW

Art Upton
NAR #26255 L3CC member
 
Hi AK,

I understand the argument for dissimilar electronics, but I have flown the MAWD many times and never had it let me down. For this reason I flew two MAWD's for my L3 cert flight. Yet again, they did not let me down. I had a primary and back-up. I simply set the back-up altimeter to delay the apogee charge for 1 second, and of course the main charges were set for different altitudes. They worked flawlessly! I have three MAWD's and all three have been 100% reliable over 80-90 flights.

You made a good choice, stick with it. Good luck with your L2 and L3 flights.
 
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