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ben

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Ok, I crashed my Nike Apache sustainer this past weekend due to friction fitting not holding for ejection. I recovered the fincan and nosecone and I am going to rebuild it. This time I am going to do things a little different by adding a booster. I am using Jim Ball's plans for his Nike Apache to make mine.

https://yellowjacketsystems.com/jimball/nike-apache/default.htm

I will use my new Xavien Fist timer as the staging timer. I plan on putting my MAWD in the sustainer and a Beeline if I can borrow one. I am also looking at getting an ARTS 2 to put in the booster. I am ordering that parts form LOC and the centering rings from A1. I will post more info pictures as i get it.

Ben
 
Ben, maybe you should first learn how to use friction fit or how to build a solid motor retention before building 2stage rockets?! :pirate:
 
Roman said:
Ben, maybe you should first learn how to use friction fit or how to build a solid motor retention before building 2stage rockets?! :pirate:
Click to expand...

I didn't know about aeropacks or slimlines when I built this. The new rocket will have positive motor retention.

Ben
 
What size motor are you putting in the sustainer?? You can get forward closures with a threaded hole for for retention for Aerotech 38 and 54mm motors now. (I think AMW and LOKI have them too but since I live in CA I don't have much experience with these motors.)

Basically you can make the motor tube an inch or two longer than your longest motor and put a bulkhead on the end with a hole for a piece of all thread (you'll need one for each motor casing). Insert the motor into the motor tube...stick the all thread through the hole in the bulk head and screw it into the threaded hole in the forward closure and then put a wing nut on and tighten it down....works like a champ and is just the ticket if you don't have the extra room for an aeropac or slimline retainer.
 
smurf said:
What size motor are you putting in the sustainer?? You can get forward closures with a threaded hole for for retention for Aerotech 38 and 54mm motors now. (I think AMW and LOKI have them too but since I live in CA I don't have much experience with these motors.)

Basically you can make the motor tube an inch or two longer than your longest motor and put a bulkhead on the end with a hole for a piece of all thread (you'll need one for each motor casing). Insert the motor into the motor tube...stick the all thread through the hole in the bulk head and screw it into the threaded hole in the forward closure and then put a wing nut on and tighten it down....works like a champ and is just the ticket if you don't have the extra room for an aeropac or slimline retainer.
Click to expand...

I was actually going to do this. I thought about it after I typed the reply. I am going to fly with electronics most of the time in the sustainer so I was going to use the eye bolt.

Ben
 
<"What size motor are you putting in the sustainer?? You can get forward closures with a threaded hole for for retention for Aerotech 38 and 54mm motors now. (I think AMW and LOKI have them too but since I live in CA I don't have much experience with these motors.)

Basically you can make the motor tube an inch or two longer than your longest motor and put a bulkhead on the end with a hole for a piece of all thread (you'll need one for each motor casing). Insert the motor into the motor tube...stick the all thread through the hole in the bulk head and screw it into the threaded hole in the forward closure and then put a wing nut on and tighten it down....works like a champ and is just the ticket if you don't have the extra room for an aeropac or slimline retainer.

I was actually going to do this. I thought about it after I typed the reply. I am going to fly with electronics most of the time in the sustainer so I was going to use the eye bolt.>"

------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you do that - you forgo the motor ejection as a back up...and you might want to consider that.

A long delay on the motor will be a back up for droque - or seperating the airframe...this will get you a slower speed for main deployment if the first charge at apogee fails.
 
MaxQ said:
<"What size motor are you putting in the sustainer?? You can get forward closures with a threaded hole for for retention for Aerotech 38 and 54mm motors now. (I think AMW and LOKI have them too but since I live in CA I don't have much experience with these motors.)

Basically you can make the motor tube an inch or two longer than your longest motor and put a bulkhead on the end with a hole for a piece of all thread (you'll need one for each motor casing). Insert the motor into the motor tube...stick the all thread through the hole in the bulk head and screw it into the threaded hole in the forward closure and then put a wing nut on and tighten it down....works like a champ and is just the ticket if you don't have the extra room for an aeropac or slimline retainer.

I was actually going to do this. I thought about it after I typed the reply. I am going to fly with electronics most of the time in the sustainer so I was going to use the eye bolt.>"

------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you do that - you forgo the motor ejection as a back up...and you might want to consider that.

A long delay on the motor will be a back up for droque - or seperating the airframe...this will get you a slower speed for main deployment if the first charge at apogee fails.
Click to expand...

That is true but I ran a quick rocsim and on an AMW L777 to a Loki J528 I need a 17 second delay.

Ben
 
Are you saying the sustainer w/motor has 17 second power and then coast to apogee?

(No small motors for you eh? Thought you might want to try something a little more manageable on your first high power two stage flight.......)
 
MaxQ said:
Are you saying the sustainer w/motor has 17 second power and then coast to apogee?

(No small motors for you eh? Thought you might want to try something a little more manageable on your first high power two stage flight.......)
Click to expand...

no I am saying maxed out I need 17-18 seconds. I am going to fly it on a 38/240 load by itself and then on the full J by itself to see how if preforms. Then put the full L to J combo in :D And I have full faith in ym electronics to deploy the chutes. Plus there is not point of apogee deply if I have motor backup. If the delay was 3-4 seconds past apogee it would be backup but I am like right at apogee with the longest delay.

Ben
 
<"If the delay was 3-4 seconds past apogee it would be backup but I am like right at apogee with the longest delay">

So, in the two stage configuration - it is still going too fast at 17 seconds for a first event motor deployment ..according to the sim....is this what you are saying?
 
MaxQ said:
<"If the delay was 3-4 seconds past apogee it would be backup but I am like right at apogee with the longest delay">

So, in the two stage configuration - it is still going too fast at 17 seconds for a first event motor deployment ..according to the sim....is this what you are saying?
Click to expand...

yes. It recomends 17.8 seconds. This is the simmed weight not actual. I would rather just use elctronics. I have plenty of faith in them. Motor ejection has failed me before, (not just the friction fit, not enough charge once) but electronics haven't!

Ben
 
Most Cert level ones use motor ejection, that has been a fact for years, particularly in the days before commercially made electronics for rockets were readily availble.

There are less failure modes in a motor ejection vs. altimeter ejection.

Sure the exact delay in motor ejection can be tricky but you usually get "something"...even if it is early - or late.

Motor ejection is an inexpensive back up, and should be reliable.
If it isn't - that speaks volumes in itself.

For the sake of discussion how many altimeter flights have you had...total?

How did they compare, statistically, with your motor ejection flights?

Sure, electronics have been very relaible over the years, but if I had to bet on any given flight - (whether a motor ejection would work vs. an altimeter), - I'm not sure an altimeter would win hands down...afterall, isn't that why L3 flights have to have two altimeters...?
And bigger projects even more?
 
MaxQ said:
Most Cert level ones use motor ejection, that has been a fact for years, particularly in the days before commercially made electronics for rockets were readily availble.

There are less failure modes in a motor ejection vs. altimeter ejection.

Sure the exact delay in motor ejection can be tricky but you usually get "something"...even if it is early - or late.

Motor ejection is an inexpensive back up, and should be reliable.
If it isn't - that speaks volumes in itself.

For the sake of discussion how many altimeter flights have you had...total?

How did they compare, statistically, with your motor ejection flights?

Sure, electronics have been very relaible over the years, but if I had to bet on any given flight - (whether a motor ejection would work vs. an altimeter), - I'm not sure an altimeter would win hands down...afterall, isn't that why L3 flights have to have two altimeters...?
And bigger projects even more?
Click to expand...

6 total altimeter flights and 5 succesfull. The deuce' was the bad one :(

I understand that in certain circumstances motor ejection is the choice but in others its an altimeter. I am confident in my altimeter and my skills to use it. If i get an ARTS I will fly it in my dads rocket and in my Deuce with motor backup. Since its a new altimeter and I am not as familiar with it.

Ben
 
As you learned the hard way the sustainer recovery systems should be electronically activated. Postive motor retention is just one potential failure that could result in the loss of the sustainer. Sustainer motor failing to ignite is another. Having the wrong delay time is another - the correct delay time is highly dependent on a predictable trajectory and motor performance. Even with the correct calculations and simulations the final trajectory may not be what you expected for a number of reasons. If you do not have faith in the electronics then at least use them for backup to motor ejection in the sustainer.

https://home.cfl.rr.com/highpowerrocket/
 
highpowerrocket said:
As you learned the hard way the sustainer recovery systems should be electronically activated. Postive motor retention is just one potential failure that could result in the loss of the sustainer. Sustainer motor failing to ignite is another. Having the wrong delay time is another - the correct delay time is highly dependent on a predictable trajectory and motor performance. Even with the correct calculations and simulations the final trajectory may not be what you expected for a number of reasons. If you do not have faith in the electronics then at least use them for backup to motor ejection in the sustainer.

https://home.cfl.rr.com/highpowerrocket/
Click to expand...

NICE SITE!! So it looks like you have done some staging yourself? WHEN I fly this on a J528, the J is a white load which isn't as easy as AT blue to light. I planned on putting a quickburst twiggy (made for F G H motors) inside 2 pyrodex pellets, then dipping the top of that in pyrogen. I am using an Xavien Fist that I am going to set to fire one channel 3 seconds after burnout and the 2nd one 4 seconds after as a backup. I can deliever 9-15V of power with the FIST, I planned on using a custom battery pack that will have about 12 volts. The quickburst should light fine but I will ground test.

Ben
 
ben said:
6 total altimeter flights and 5 succesfull. The deuce' was the bad one :(

I understand that in certain circumstances motor ejection is the choice but in others its an altimeter. I am confident in my altimeter and my skills to use it. If i get an ARTS I will fly it in my dads rocket and in my Deuce with motor backup. Since its a new altimeter and I am not as familiar with it.

Ben
Click to expand...

Well, it's not like it has to be an "either/or" choice, and since most HPR motors (except for the larger ones) have the ejection well in them anyway, why not put it to work as a back up?
You can combine that with a solid retention system in the back/aft end.

BTW:....hate to be a stickler for details, but....aside from the Deuce,
what about the first one, the one that went in at Pole Green...didn't get the altitude to arm, or the vent covered.....) ?

Wasn't that the Apachee or the AMRAAM?

Wouldn't motor ejection be a nice back up for some of these flights?
 
here are some photos. I receive the centering rings from Pat at A1 and I just can't say enough good things about them(check out the vendors forum)!

here are all the centering rings and the booster thrust plate/cap

IMG_6048.jpg


Here is the bulkplate in the transition. It is marked for 16 1/8" thick triangle that will shape the transition.

IMG_6045.jpg


Ben
 
MaxQ said:
Well, hate to be a stickler for detials but....
What about the first one, the one that went in at Pole Green...didn't get the altitude to arm, or vent covered.....) ?

Wasn't that the Apachee or the AMRAAM?

Wouldn't motor ejection be a nice back up for some of these flights?
Click to expand...

That was my very first flight and I had no guidance. Honestly, even thought it lawn darted I learned alot and I think I had a good setup. It didn't reach the 160' arming height. It was the apache.

Ben
 
here is the coupler and LOC BT-80 piece that will be in the transition. The coupler is glassed with 2 layers of 2oz nice fine weave. Its stiff but after seeing some failures (and seeing my 1/4" bent allthread from the Nike Apache crash) I am going to put 2 wraps of 2oz on the inside.

IMG_6046.jpg


Here is the sustainer and transition mocked up.

IMG_6047.jpg


Ben
 
highpowerrocket said:
As you learned the hard way the sustainer recovery systems should be electronically activated. Postive motor retention is just one potential failure that could result in the loss of the sustainer. Sustainer motor failing to ignite is another. Having the wrong delay time is another - the correct delay time is highly dependent on a predictable trajectory and motor performance. Even with the correct calculations and simulations the final trajectory may not be what you expected for a number of reasons. If you do not have faith in the electronics then at least use them for backup to motor ejection in the sustainer.

https://home.cfl.rr.com/highpowerrocket/
Click to expand...

Potential failures:
a.)..."Sustainer motor failing to ignite is another."

b.) Having the sustainer motor actually ignite is another...when it is arcing over and pointing at the flight line.

The aforementioned scenario ("Sustainer motor failing to ignite) is as good a reason as any to actually have electronics in the sustainer...to save the rocket when the motor doesn't light.
In that case he better have faith in the electronics..since it will be his only back up....the motor ejection is a moot point in that case.

That said - I'm not advocating no electronics...but by the same token, I've seen enough rockets whistle in ballistic (with their electronics) to wonder if a motor ejection somewhere on the way down would have at least seperated the airframe and made the situation a little more safe,... and a less frightening ....
 
MaxQ said:
That said - I'm not advocating no electronics...but by the same token, I've seen <b> enough rockets whistle in ballistic</b> (with their electronics) to wonder if a motor ejection somewhere on the way down would have at least seperated the airframe and made the situation a little more sfe and a less frightening ....
Click to expand...

that line sounds familiar :( :p
 
I am still thinking about ignition methods. Thats all that is going to fail the project (in my mind)

Ben
 
MaxQ said:
You and me both...at least you won't be trying to stick a modified ematch in a C slot...
Click to expand...

yeah it will be a nice large Bates grain! I am still thinking 3 pellets with sanded grains and quickdip on the top grain.

Ben
 
Well I did a little work today. Here is the interstage coupler. I cut a coupler to double wall it. I will glue it in later. I am pretty sure it will be strong enough with 4oz glass and double wall but if it needs inner glass I will.

IMG_6056.jpg


I marked and tacked on one fin with 5 min epoxy. I am going to tip 2 tip them with 9oz fibergalss and a 1oz veil.

IMG_6049.jpg


More pics to come!

Ben
 
well, I got 3 fins on and I am going to do another set of t2t. I got the booster tubes and couplers from LOC today. I am going to put a layer of 7oz glass on the booster just for a little extra strength.

Ben
 

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