How to make the jump to HPR?

I've played around with the low powered stuff that most everyone in the hobby typically starts with. I've also taken a look at some of the threads here and on the mid-powered rockets, and I've noticed that there are some significant differences between the low powered stuff and more challenging, higher powered stuff.

The problem I have found is that there does not seem to be one concise place, pamphlet, book, etc. that deals with all the differences between the low powered stuff and the more advanced rockets. I catch glimpses, bits and pieces, but not the whole package.

For instance, different construction techniques, like thru-the-wall construction, electronic bays to time release chutes (presumably so they don't drift too far?), reloadable motor systems, e-matches, sanctioning bodies other than NAR (!) like Tripoli, different level certs and build reviews, FAA launch regulations and such.

Is there an equivalent book like G Harry Stine's bible (mine's near 30 years old!) that details mid powered and high powered rockets, and how they are the same, and different from the low powered rockets? One that will explain the above differences, and more?

Mark Canepa's Modern High Powered Rocketry 2
is probably the closest thing to what you're looking for.

https://www.modernhpr.com/

Recomended!

Mark Canepa's Modern High-Power Rocketry 2 is a fantastic resource to consider.

It's really just a bigger version of low power.
Start out simple with a motor based parachute ejection, just one 'chute.
Small 38mm's or maybe some 29's.
Look over the rockets at the launch and ask questions.
Spend some quality time with INFOcentral .
And remember, you're gonna hear all over the place, "DON'T do it like that, it won't work!"
But, for the most part, build techniques are like rectal orifices, everyone has their own and they're all full of poop.
Use what you find works and don't be afraid to experiment.
And it's all about fun.

Canepa's book is very good. I suggest re-reading a current copy of Stine's Handbook of Model Rocketry and paying close attention to the stability and propulsion parts. I learned a lot from the Extreme Rocketry "A Guide to Level One Certification" book. You can find it under their https://www.extremerocketry.com/ page.

Is there a local club that does high power? I would go hang out with that "support group" as you'll learn a lot.

You can learn a lot of the high power techniques in model and mid-power rocketry. Reloadable motors and electronics are probably the most intimidating technologies.

Start out with mid power, E-G motors. I would recommend launching them at a Tripoli event to meet some HPR flyers and get advice. For E-G composite motors (not black powder estes E motors) you just need to be 18 but dont need any cert. For TRA and NAR there are three cert levels, L1 L2 and L3, for H-I, J-L and M and up respectivly.

For now though just worry about mid power. I think a good starting place would be an aerotech kit and a 29/40-100 motor system. The aerotech kits are SUPER easy to build, can build the entire thing with super glue and the fins snap in through the wall for perfectly straight alignment. Basically you would just be building a large but simple rocket, so you can just focus on the motors. They have a baffle system so you dont need wadding and a motor clip just like an estes rocket.

Reloadable motors can be scary, but are not that difficult and the 29/40-100 is a great one because you can fly E-G loads in it. The case is about $50 "down payment" but the reloads will be much cheaper then single use motors, in the long run you will be glad you did it.

After your aerotech kit I would look into a small (something a G motor could lift) PML or LOC kit with a 29mm motor mount. These require a bit more in the construction department, I would use epoxy's on them and tips from Marks book and fellow flyers will help. You could even get a bird that is capable of flying on 29mm H or I motors and use it for your Level 1 cert flight after some MPR G flights.

I would build it stock, except add some form of motor retention. Most larger MPR and HPR rockets wont come with any info on motor retention because there are so many different methods.

Dont worry about electronic deployment, you can rely on motor based ejection charges for rockets from E-K and its just as reliable as an estes motor.

When I made the jump to high power. I purchased a LOC Graduator kit. I modified it by adding a payload bay. I also added an extra centering ring and longer motor mount tube. I used a Kevlar shock cord and attached it to the upper centering ring with an eye bolt. I also added T-nuts to the aft centering ring for retention. I used Aero-Poxy and fiberglass pulp on all the fin fillets to beef things up. The fin tabs were all the way through the wall to the motor mount.

The rocket has flow many, many successful high power flights as well as my cert flight in 2002. It has crashed twice due to deployment trouble. The last crash has it temporarily retired. Here is a list of motors it has flown on.

G35 Econojet (First Flight)
G80
H-128 (Level 1 Cert)
H180
H238
H210
H220
H70 (RATT HYBRID)

Here is a photo of the rocket after the last crash were the nose impaled the body tube. I'll rebuild it one day. It flys to good to retire for long.

https://bayourat.com/Freak Acident.jpg

https://bayourat.com/Freak%20Acident.jpg

The only difference between midpower and high power is the strength the rocket needs to have. You need to build it so it can take the high G forces larger motors. That is why most HPR uses through the wall fins as well as composite material. It might sound like much but both those techniques are fairly simple to learn as well as master.

It only starts getting technical when you do dual deploy, airstarts, staging, and making COMPLETE composite rockets.

You can get kits that are really good for L.1 because they are strong and easy to build. A lot of the 38mm rockets that PML makes are very good for attaining L1.

Here is my L1 rocket that hasn't had 1 problem since I built it. This is about its 15th flight.
.

Here is the video.https://media.putfile.com/Dale-Ian-Timberlake-Intruder-I-211

TIP: ALWAYS FOLLOW THE RELOAD DIRECTIONS EVERY TIME YOU PUT TOGETHER A RELOAD. Even though you may have made the motor tens of times before, its never worth it to risk it because of arrogance. I could probobly build an I211 blindfolded but I NEVER would consider it and I ALWAYS follow the directions step by step. Its not hard to put together if you follow the directions step by step

Binder Design makes an excellent line of MPR and HPR kits.

They're easy to build and fly beautifully. I have the Stealth and the Raptor which I flew on a J350 for my L2.

BSD makes excellent kits too.

If you think you are up for it go for it and get a LOC, PML, BSD or binder kit... But I think it may be nice to start out with aerotech and focus on reloadable motors... I think you would be best off to just from the start do reloadables, you can buy like 2-3 G motors (single use) and already exceed the cost of a 24-29mm motor hardware system.

But if you are up for it get a kit with a 29mm motor mount, fly it on some F-G motors and then go for L1 with an H128 or a slightly larger load...

Then get a larger rocket with a 38mm mount, fly it on some larger H's and I's and then go for L2 with a J350... And soo on... In a few years you will be launching your M1939 for your L3 cert

I agree with all,
start with a kit or two, fly on G's get to know your Reloadable hardware. Then fly an H and get your L1.

Then I suggest getting away from kits at least for a while, and build your own rockets for a while. Bild a rocket that supports a 38mm, then a rocket that supports 54mm, then a rocket that supports 75mm, With each build do a lot of research (Type of materials, type of epoxy, type of composites etc..) plan it all out well in advance. Think about things like what might be in the way if I do this? Would this limit my motor choice? can I easily access my electronics without disassembling the whole dang rocket? things like that. Then build your rockets patiently/ slowly, never rush like I have on every rocket I ever built hahhahaha..

As you build get online and find 2 -3 different methods of doing what you are about to do, not in the middle of doing. Decide which one youthink would work best for you. AS you build try different techniques for certain things and again find what works best for you. People will say "Always do it this way" "Don't ever do that" etc.. Don't listen to them, do what yout hink is the best solution with the best results and the most strength for your rockets. I have been told a couple of times I can't do this or that, I am still proving them wrong...

By the time you have all this under your belt, it will be time for your L3, then you can decide to scratch build or do a kit...

The rest will be easy..

Brent

One thank to keep in mind if you purchase and fly an Aerotech
Rocket, do not trust the motor clip that are like the Estes rocket.
I’m not the only one that has lost there Motor casing when the ejection charge ejected the Motor casing out the back, for the clip will not hold the motor in.

A way to prevent this is either install a T-nut or just wrap tape or a Plastic hoses clamp (that can be purchased in bulk at an Auto Parts Store) around the motor and clamp.

The best way to learn about Mid and High Power Rocketry is to join a Local Club and ask a lot of questions. And by all means ask questions on this forum!

If my daughter can build a High Power rocket and get her level 2 certification, you should have no problems.

You're doing the best thing you can do now: Research! There are LOTS of threads on L1 up here, so read up on them. Heck, read up on L2 and L3 threads as well as most of the techniques are about the same. Someone already mentioned Mark Canepa's book. That is an excellent resource, one I still refer to quite a bit. I also recommend info-central. Again, there is lots of information available there to help you out.

I also agree with starting out with a simple kit and learning how reloads work. Find something with a 38mm motor mount that can be flown on 29mm G's and adapt down. PML makes excellent, easy to build and fly kits, so I highly recommend them as a starting point. Attend a local high power launch and start asking questions. Most people will be more than willing to help you out!

Originally posted by jraice
Start out with mid power, E-G motors. I would recommend launching them at a Tripoli event to meet some HPR flyers and get advice. For E-G composite motors (not black powder estes E motors) you just need to be 18 but dont need any cert. For TRA and NAR there are three cert levels, L1 L2 and L3, for H-I, J-L and M and up respectivly.

For now though just worry about mid power. I think a good starting place would be an aerotech kit and a 29/40-100 motor system. The aerotech kits are SUPER easy to build, can build the entire thing with super glue and the fins snap in through the wall for perfectly straight alignment. Basically you would just be building a large but simple rocket, so you can just focus on the motors. They have a baffle system so you dont need wadding and a motor clip just like an estes rocket.

Reloadable motors can be scary, but are not that difficult and the 29/40-100 is a great one because you can fly E-G loads in it. The case is about $50 "down payment" but the reloads will be much cheaper then single use motors, in the long run you will be glad you did it.

After your aerotech kit I would look into a small (something a G motor could lift) PML or LOC kit with a 29mm motor mount. These require a bit more in the construction department, I would use epoxy's on them and tips from Marks book and fellow flyers will help. You could even get a bird that is capable of flying on 29mm H or I motors and use it for your Level 1 cert flight after some MPR G flights.

I would build it stock, except add some form of motor retention. Most larger MPR and HPR rockets wont come with any info on motor retention because there are so many different methods.

Dont worry about electronic deployment, you can rely on motor based ejection charges for rockets from E-K and its just as reliable as an estes motor.

Click to expand...

That is EXACTLY the same advice I was going to give. The AT Initiator is a great place to start. This kit will give you an idea of the size and power of mid power motors/rockets with a fairly simple build. You won't have to worry about motor retention or anything like that with AT kits.

I'd also recommend kits like the Public Missiles Amraam 2.1 or Small Endeavour. Bigger type rockets that can fly on mid and high power motors. These will help you see some of the different materials and build techniques used in bigger rockets, and will also introduce you to things like motor retention.

Best advice, though - attend a club launch, and don't be afraid to ask questions. Everyone in this hobby likes to help others, in my experience. There is no such thing as a stupid question, and you can learn in a 10 minute conversation with an experienced flyer what would take 1 year on your own.

Parting words - don't be in a big hurry. Spend some time at each power level learning everything you can. I flew lpr as a BAR for two years before I got my first mid power rocket. Then, I flew lpr and mid power for another two years before getting my L1 (PML Small Endeavour, H165R). I plan on flying two years (at least) on L1, learning about electronics and dual deployment before I get my L2.

Have fun!

Originally posted by Bayourat
Here is a photo of the rocket after the last crash were the nose impaled the body tube. I'll rebuild it one day. It flys to good to retire for long.

https://bayourat.com/Freak Acident.jpg

https://bayourat.com/Freak%20Acident.jpg

Click to expand...

Just when you think you've seen it all .........