My First BP Cato

After about a 1000 BP launches I finally had my first BP Cato. I spent the entire weekend launching rockets. On Saturday I entered my first NAR contest and launched rockets all day. On Sunday I visited my family where my father and I always spend part of my visits reliving our earlier rocket days in the 70's by launching a few rockets. It was getting late and I decided to send off my Quest M2Q2 Lifting Body on a Quest A6-4. I had launched other A6-4s from the same pack with no problems but this last flight was a different story. The rocket blew up on the launch pad. The motor casing split right down the side. The motors have been kept a room temprature the entire time I have owned them. Anyone know if Quest is as good as Estes in replacing rockets when motors fail?

I don't think Quest should be held reponsible for an Estes motor failure. I DO think Estes would make good on a pack of motors at the very least, and possibly a kit of equal value....hopefully.

"...Quest M2Q2 Lifting Body on a Quest A6-4."
Does Estes make Quest engines?

Originally posted by foose4string
I don't think Quest should be held reponsible for an Estes motor failure. I DO think Estes would make good on a pack of motors at the very least, and possibly a kit of equal value....hopefully.

Click to expand...

Oops. Sorry, I thought A6-4 looked kinda weird. Yeah, give Quest a call tomorrow.

A quick update:
Quest quickly responded to my unfortunate CATO.
They are replacing my rocket.

Great customer service!

I think it's pretty cool that manufacturers would replace a rocket kit for you based only on your word. In my limited BAR experience, I've really only learned that there are LOTS of variables that depend entirely on the user of the product, so it seems to me most problems if investigated thoroughly could be traced back to the user and not the manufacturer.

I spose to some degree, it's cheaper for them to send you a new kit than it is to "investigate" to find out if their product truly was at fault. Did they grill you at all about exactly what happened or did they pretty much just say "okay we'll send you a new kit"?

I should be clear here lessgravity, I am making NO claims about the validity of YOUR situation. I'm interested in this angle because I work for a big national ISP and a big part of what I do here is investigate customer's claims about "outages" where the actual problem was caused by faulty equipment within their own network.

Were any of your other flights of A6-4 motors from this pack in this rocket? I ask because the A6-4 has along delay and the rocket is kind of draggy, so I would expect it to only fly upwards about 200 to 250 feet and then drop virtually the entire way back to the ground before ejection.

A B6-2 would be my choice.

Originally posted by shreadvector
Were any of your other flights of A6-4 motors from this pack in this rocket? I ask because the A6-4 has along delay and the rocket is kind of draggy, so I would expect it to only fly upwards about 200 to 250 feet and then drop virtually the entire way back to the ground before ejection.

A B6-2 would be my choice.

Click to expand...

I have found the A6-4 an ideal motor for this rocket. in small fields I've flown it about 20 times with that motor combination. I get about 400 feet and deployment at apogee. I have also flown it on A8-3s but the burn is much shorter than the A6-4 and gets only about half the altitude. The A6-4 is one of my favorite motors because of it's long burn it gets much better altitude than Estes A8-3s and the tracking smoke is much better. I had actually flown this rocket 10 minutes earlier with the same motor combination and it was picture perfect.
As for the pack of A6-4s... I had bought a bulk pack in which I have used about 10 motors without problems.

Originally posted by paparoof
Did they grill you at all about exactly what happened or did they pretty much just say "okay we'll send you a new kit"?

Click to expand...

I documented the entire incident with photos of rocket and motor. I expect Quest used that as their evidence in their decision. I also had motor info from the pack with date stamps etc.

so I guess it's not just based on your word alone. in your case anyway, you presented some data to prove your point.

I'll admit from that picture above, there's no question about where the explosion originated.

Paparoof:
As your a very new BAR, we'll semi excuse your lack of CATO knowledge
Cato's occur in two varieties, Blow thrus and Case splittings. Neither are normally end user problems.
Heat cycling of motors is the major factor in these problems. One really has to abuse their motors over a period of time to be the CAUSE of these CATO problems.
Case splittings are almost always an overpresserization problem.....a manufacturing problem. That's why the motor manufacturers don't bother to question a Cato report. They know it's a motor problem, something that happens every so often in the process Estes D13's and E15's, specific batches of C5-3's and lots of FSI F100's motor types suffered from these, shell we say Oopses.

I've been purposely Heat cycling a couple batches (24 each) of Micro Motors for the last year, attempting to cause a blow thur cato in both MM-1 and MM-II motors. As of this date I've been unable to do so, even tho i've recorded temp extremes on these motor of 162°f in summer and as low as 5°f over two winters. We'll try again to launch the remaining dozen motors this fall in cold temps to see if a second full year of abuse will do it
Hope this helps

Originally posted by Micromeister
Paparoof:
As your a very new BAR, we'll semi excuse your lack of CATO knowledge

Click to expand...

Thanks you for your patience Mister Meister. Looks a little more clear-cut than Internet-access.

Maybe I should get a job working for a rocket kit manufacturer.
Hey Jim Flis - where's the "careers" section on your website?

Originally posted by paparoof
Thanks you for your patience Mister Meister. Looks a little more clear-cut than Internet-access.

Maybe I should get a job working for a rocket kit manufacturer.
Hey Jim Flis - where's the "careers" section on your website?

Click to expand...

One other factor... there are not large numbers of rocket consumers out there. The few who claim problems are not worth causing customer alienation to determine the complete truth. I'm sure a few abuse this but most do not and the system works.

You, you, you horrible motor abuser person, you!

Originally posted by Micromeister
I've been purposely Heat cycling a couple batches (24 each) of Micro Motors for the last year ................ We'll try again to launch the remaining dozen motors this fall in cold temps to see if a second full year of abuse will do it

Click to expand...

Storage temperature variations probably could indeed make a difference if the motor is marginal in some other way (weakly stamped propellant load not well sealed against inside of case wall?).

I have been wondering for some time whether there is anything we consumers can actually do to these motors that really affects how often the motors CATO (assuming 'reasonable' handling and storage). I have had a few pop that I KNEW were well-tended, and I have had a lot of hand-me-down and garage-sale motors (the kind where you have no idea how they were stored) that burned just fine. I have to wonder if the CATOs are caused more by badly-laminated casings (where the plies come loose and let the combustion gases get by) or by 'first-of-the-batch' production problems (before the settings on the motor press machine get all dialed in properly) or stuff like that, problems that doom the motor regardless of WHAT we do with it (again, within reason). Whaddya think?

totally agree Powder:
I've been throwing around motors for a long time trying to make them CATO. With only marginal success. Back in the very early 80's several of the guy's in my flying group. purchased motors, direct, from local hobby shops and from garage sales. many different types but we were mostly looking for the suspect core burning motors B8's, B14's and C5's as well as any D12 or OLD D13's we came across.
the packaged motors were then, not handled properly, droppped from table height onto cement floors, set in the sun, in storage sheds for weeks, clay nozzles scrapped with nails, knifes and other scappings. just generally treated pretty badly.
of somewhere around 60 motors I think we succeeded in helping a couple B8's blow thur. Only had one D13 Case split that i'm not sure we had a thing to do with.
As I mentioned earlier I'm pretty anal about not leaving my motor boxes in the van in or other super hot places and try to keep them in ambiant temp on humidity conditions always. My Cato rate personally is Rare to almost non-existant.


During the OOP testing I've been conduction for the NAR over the last 6 months We've launched over 150 motors with date of manufactures back to 1966. to date I've had 3 cato's two of them last weekend. One an A10-Ot I purchased last summer with a 6A6 date code (1996) and a C5-3 from the bad batch Estes listed and pulled for the shelved, 9x6 I believe, but that one I have to look up as it was given to me on the field, with the info that it was one from that known BAD batch The third was a 1971 Centuri 13mm motor.
I'm pretty well convinced there is very little we as consumers can do that harms our BP motors. store and use them with a little common sense and the are pretty much good indeffinately
I sure Hope the NAR will agree with these findings and stop decertifing BP motors for sport flying use simply because of production status, I think we've pretty well shown they are right stable over very long periods of time.

Back in the days of Estes E15's, I had a foam rocket that I was trying to destroy. I had seen some E15 catos, and knew they had a reputation for going kablooey. I took a couple E15's (it was a 2 engine cluster) and beat them against car bumpers before flying them in an attempt to make them cato, but no joy .

I'm just bummed that the NAR OOP test program is only for "model" rocket engines (my dad found our old black powder stache, with an F104SS, some F100, and F7 motors among others). I'd love to put together a test rocket for a 2-stage FSI F100 to FSI F7 flight .

-Rick

Rick: Make a list of the motors, date codes and storage history as you know it.
Send it to Ted at NAR S&T.
I'm told he will look at FSI motors on a case by case basis, as some FSI motors were pulled for other Safety reasons, they can't give a blanket Ok. but will look at ALL BP motors during this second phase.

I'm fairly new to the hobby and wasn't around when FSI motors and Estes E15's were exploding at launches. I was just wondering what made these motors so prone to failure. Was it something specific or were they just "bad motors?"

lessgravity said:

It was getting late and I decided to send off my Quest M2Q2 Lifting Body on a Quest A6-4. I had launched other A6-4s from the same pack with no problems but this last flight was a different story. The rocket blew up on the launch pad. The motor casing split right down the side. The motors have been kept a room temprature the entire time I have owned them.

Click to expand...

Did you file a Malfunctioning Engine Statistical Survey (MESS) report with the NAR?
You can do it online here: https://www.nar.org/NARmessform.html

JRThro said:

Did you file a Malfunctioning Engine Statistical Survey (MESS) report with the NAR?
You can do it online here: https://www.nar.org/NARmessform.html

Click to expand...

Yes I did. This was back in April. Seems that this thread has been revived.

lessgravity said:

Click to expand...

I hope you kept the rocket, I could see an interesting diorama built around it, "Mars research spacecraft shot down over Olympus Mons..."

Motor making is an art and a science. Sometimes there is a change in something that nobody notices until the failures start to happen - sometimes months after the motors have been made and tested.

The bond of the propellant to the casing is always an issue. If the bond lets loose under pressure, yet the delay remains bonded, there will be a HUGE overpressure which couold split the casing. Most commonly the nozzle and entire propellant slug will blow out opposite ends of the casing.

See attachment. Save attachment. Share attachment.

Aviator said:

I'm fairly new to the hobby and wasn't around when FSI motors and Estes E15's were exploding at launches. I was just wondering what made these motors so prone to failure. Was it something specific or were they just "bad motors?"

Click to expand...