Li Poly Batteries

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Arnold Roquerre

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I have been able to get a great deal on LiPoly battery packs. I was wondering has anyone had any problems using them or knows of any problems in using them in rockets? I have used Lithium Primary 3 amp and 1.4 amp battery packs for several years with great success.
 
Originally posted by Arnold Roquerre
I have been able to get a great deal on LiPoly battery packs. I was wondering has anyone had any problems using them or knows of any problems in using them in rockets? I have used Lithium Primary 3 amp and 1.4 amp battery packs for several years with great success.

Lipo's are batteries that do not like to get banged around much...they tend to ignite or even initiate small explosions when damaged. I use them in RC, but I have not tried in rocketry.

Johnnie
 
I just noticed Beeline uses LiPoly batteries. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but the batteries that blow ar Li-Ion batteries. LiPoly batteries burn if over charged. I had a wireless mouse blow up awhile back. It had two AA Lithium Primary batteries in it at the time. Of course, I was trying out cheap imported batteries on them - big mistake.
 
Originally posted by Arnold Roquerre
I just noticed Beeline uses LiPoly batteries. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but the batteries that blow ar Li-Ion batteries. LiPoly batteries burn if over charged. I had a wireless mouse blow up awhile back. It had two AA Lithium Primary batteries in it at the time. Of course, I was trying out cheap imported batteries on them - big mistake.

I believe Li-ion are the "safer" type of Li batteries. Their was a thread a while back that stated alot about this.

Ben
 
If you use an older charger that doesn't have the automatic safety cut off when done charging, they will inflate like a balloon. If they inflate far enough, they will ignite into a HUGE flame depending on the size of battery. A typical RC battery will have a 6+ ft. flame. There are a few videos on the web (if you search) will show you what happens. Just don't charge them too long and keep them in a safe place. There are these items that are called "lipo sacks" and they contain the fire IF it does ignite.
 
Yes, Lithium Poly batteries can do nasty things when abused. Since they can deliver such a high amount of current, they tend to make things very, very warm if the terminals are shorted, or if the cell itself gets damaged. About the only thing one can do is shove it in a bucket of water when that happens.

I've also read that abuse during charging (over charging, or using too fast of a charge rate) can cause them to 'burst into flames' (but I've never seen this happen).

Use a proper charger, don't short the battery, and be careful not to damage the cell. I haven't heard any complaints from any BeeLine customers, for what that's worth.

-- Greg
 
Originally posted by BigRedBee
Yes, Lithium Poly batteries can do nasty things when abused. Since they can deliver such a high amount of current, they tend to make things very, very warm if the terminals are shorted, or if the cell itself gets damaged. About the only thing one can do is shove it in a bucket of water when that happens.

NEVER EVER extinguish a Lithium battery of any kind in water!

-John DeMar
 
The only way to contain a LiPo is to have a bag designed to contain the fire. It will still vent smoke like MAD but it will contain the flames. like I said before, get one of those things called Lipo Sacks.

Chemicle fire extinguishers have been known to work but only on the small batteries, it will do diddly squat with larger ones.
 
Originally posted by jsdemar
NEVER EVER extinguish a Lithium battery of any kind in water!

-John DeMar

Why not? Nothing bad happened (at least not the two times I've done it). Is there a danger that it will accelerate the problem?
 
Lithium + Water = bad things.

https://www.iun.edu/~cpanhd/C101webnotes/modern-atomic-theory/movie/lithium-reac.html

Its not going to leave a gaping hole in the ground, but if you already have an energetic reaction going on (fire) and add water, you're going to get some interesting things happening. It wont put the fire out and will make it worse. Lithium in a Li-Poly battery isn't pure lithium(hence the poly part), but I don't know exactly what is being released in the fire, do you?

-Aaron
 
(Okay, I know I'm gonna catch heck for this, but I can't resist....)

Maybe to extinguish the flames you just need to apply LiPo suction.





(I regret that already. :eek: )


:D


Actually, when this thread started, I was wondering about the characteristics of LiPo batteries, especially when bad things happen. I'm wondering no longer.
 
Originally posted by TWRackers
(Okay, I know I'm gonna catch heck for this, but I can't resist....)

Maybe to extinguish the flames you just need to apply LiPo suction.





(I regret that already. :eek: )


:D


Actually, when this thread started, I was wondering about the characteristics of LiPo batteries, especially when bad things happen. I'm wondering no longer.

hahahah nice :p

Ben
 
Originally posted by BigRedBee
Why not? Nothing bad happened (at least not the two times I've done it). Is there a danger that it will accelerate the problem?

Most lithium batteries release hydrogen gas in the presense of water. That will accelerate the fire. The Lithium polymer batteries aren't as bad as the lithium non-rechargeables, but it's best not to chance it.

If the battery leaks, use baking soda to absorb/neutralize the electrolyte.

If a fire starts and other stuff is burning as a cause of it, go ahead with the water hose or fire extinguisher!

The manufacturers data sheets have many more safety tips.

-John
 
LipoSack

This is what I was saying earlier. I work at HobbyTownUSA and we sell these. One saved a mans house because he had his lipo in the sack in his basement. he left for the weekend and came back to see and smell a smoke filled basement and a "used" liposack. He had a video on the thing feeding to his computer to see if something would happen. (obviously he wasn't trying to make it happen, he just did it just in case something did). The sack contained the fire easily where the similar battery not in the LipoSack tested outside caused a flame 6 ft. high.
 
Rechargable Li batteries will work fine if you follow the manufacturers instructions and

1.) Only recharge Li batteries with a charger designed to recharge Li batteries.

https://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-12.htm

2.) Never recharge a Li battery with greater than 4.2 V or discharge it to below ~3 V. Higher voltages will make metallic Lithium which is bad, and a too deep a discharge can make metal filaments which will eventually short circuit the battery. (Splinter formation results in a failure similar to the defective flaming laptop batteries.)

3.) Do not discharge faster than the manufacturers recommendations.

4.) Use Li battery pack protective circuitry if you make your own battery packs. It insures the 2.) and 3.) are followed.

A very good set of precautions are found here

https://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=711

https://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=871

https://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=Custom&ID=32

Bob
 
Originally posted by jsdemar
Most lithium batteries release hydrogen gas in the presense of water. That will accelerate the fire. The Lithium polymer batteries aren't as bad as the lithium non-rechargeables, but it's best not to chance it.

If the battery leaks, use baking soda to absorb/neutralize the electrolyte.

If a fire starts and other stuff is burning as a cause of it, go ahead with the water hose or fire extinguisher!

The manufacturers data sheets have many more safety tips.

-John

So, if the rocket lands in a pond, comes down in a wet field and gets soaked, or ends up in a tree where it can't down until after a rain shower, what can one expect?
 
Originally posted by bobkrech
Rechargable Li batteries will work fine if you follow the manufacturers instructions and

1.) Only recharge Li batteries with a charger designed to recharge Li batteries.

https://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-12.htm

2.) Never recharge a Li battery with greater than 4.2 V or discharge it to below ~3 V. Higher voltages will make metallic Lithium which is bad, and a too deep a discharge can make metal filaments which will eventually short circuit the battery. (Splinter formation results in a failure similar to the defective flaming laptop batteries.)

3.) Do not discharge faster than the manufacturers recommendations.

4.) Use Li battery pack protective circuitry if you make your own battery packs. It insures the 2.) and 3.) are followed.

A very good set of precautions are found here

https://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=711

https://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=871

https://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=Custom&ID=32

Bob



So, we have the BATF yelping like dogs at our heels because of our killer motors while almost every household has little bombs waiting to go off. If I had been in the room when lithium battery exploded in my mouse, I would have been blinded. Plastic shrapne was everwhere.

Perhaps it is wise to place a battery pack to be used in a rocket inside a liposack or a water proof bag or both just to play it save.

I guess I am going to have to through a few lithiums into a bucket to see how bad it gets.
 
Keep in mind that those are specifically lithium polymer rechargeables. Lithium single use batteries will never explode like that, and are unlikely to catch fire, and lithium ion batteries (rechargeables like those in most laptops and cell phones) are not quite that sensitive. They can still fail if you do really bad things to them, but laptops and cell phones generally have protective circuitry to prevent that from happening.
 
I think some of the newer laptops and cell phones are actually using LiPo cells instead of LI-ion cells which is why they are having more issues. Here on YouTube is a good example of a lipo charge fire.:eek: :eek: :eek:
 
Originally posted by cjl
Keep in mind that those are specifically lithium polymer rechargeables. Lithium single use batteries will never explode like that, and are unlikely to catch fire, and lithium ion batteries (rechargeables like those in most laptops and cell phones) are not quite that sensitive. They can still fail if you do really bad things to them, but laptops and cell phones generally have protective circuitry to prevent that from happening.

I have to disagree. The batteries in the wireless mouse were lithium primary batteries and they did fry the mouse and explode. The walls were covered in battery goo. The mouse burnt black. It was a reall mess. After that experience, I decided rechargeable lithiums cannot be all that bad especially LiPoly which is why I started this thread.
 
Arnold,

I have been using Lipo batteries for years now in R/C EDF Jets and can tell you that you that they are that bad, even worse than Li-ons, and I would not recommend using them in Rocketry. Li-ons would actually be a safer alternative as they are packaged in a hard case and have a lower power C rating, thus less energy, while Lipos are always manufactured in soft aluminum wrappers ( good way to identify them), which make them more susceptible to damage from dropping, hard strikes and puncturing. Additionally, Lipos usually hold and can discharge at much higher power ratings, hence they are more volatile than Li-ons. Moreover, they do explode and burn with a flame usually much more intense than the Li-ons.

In the case of using them for powering rocketry components, I would not consider them safe to fly. With their capacity they can easily supply power to our devices, however, they are not what I would consider safe as we have overlooked a serious potential problem. Most of us like to avoid talking about the problem launch or core sample and this would be a big negative downfall for Lipos. You would have a very high chance of puncturing the pack, which would react to the atmosphere and catch fire. Additionally, this would most likely happen inside the frame of a paper or phenolic model, litterally adding more fuel to the fire. Moreover, the chance of this causing a fire at a launch site would be very high, especially when it usually includes an abundance of fuel called a flying field. For these reasons and more, it would not be wise to use Lipo batteries in your model when there are better, safer choices currently available.

When preparing for a launch, we should all consider safety first, as our models can have a considerable amount of energy behind them. Eliminating potential hazards is part of this safety mindset and should include the form of power we supply to our electronics, to include batteries. For this reason, I would not recommend Lipo batteries for use in our models.
 
Originally posted by Arnold Roquerre
So, if the rocket lands in a pond, comes down in a wet field and gets soaked, or ends up in a tree where it can't down until after a rain shower, what can one expect?

If the rocket gets damaged enough to cause the LiPo pack to crack or puncture, there's virtually a 100% chance it will catch fire. Additional moisture will help it along. This could be a downrange crash where no one could get to it in time to prevent a massive range fire.

If the rocket is lost, the LiPo pack could age and corrode over time and burst into flames. No one would be around to contain the fire days/weeks/months later.

IMO, the added energy density of the Lithium packs is not worth the fire risk.

-John
 
So, we are left with the question what is the best power supply to use in powering up rocket electronics.

In terms of fire it seems:

- Lithium primary batteries can catch fire.
- LiIOn batteries can catch fire if shorted out.
- LiPoly batteries will burn if over charged.

A rocket crashes in a wooded area and we have a potential for fire especially if the rocket is not found and the batteries continue to discharge are get wet say from a rain shower.

Launching in the desert is okay, a lake big enough to ensure no land fall will work, but the pack will be toast. Launching lithium bateries in a wooded field or a field with combustionables (a fertilized farm field) could be a problem.
 
Actually, LiPo batteries will also flame if shorted, and can be more easily shorted by being damaged in a crash because the outer shell is so flimsy. More LiPos have flamed during charge after being damaged in a crash then from being overcharged.
 
I spent Sunday morning shorting out lithium primary battery packs. I was not able to get one to burn. The packs got very hot but no fire. One battery blew apart, but no fire. I think lithium primary batteries are not much of a fire risk because they can not discharge at the rate LiIon and LiPoly batteries can. I think a rechargeable lithium packs are rated at amp bursts that are 10 times to 40 times the packs amp rating.

I am beginning to think my PC mouse blew because there was no way the hydrogen could get out and that is what blew the mouse apart.
 
I think RC battery packs are rated at 22.5 amps continuous and 30 amps bursts. This may what makes them very dangerous. Non- RC packs are rated at just 6A maximum. It would be interesting to see which ones really are the ones that burst into flames. All the warming the RC battery vendors give with the packs suggest RC packs are extremely volatile.

Has anyone had anything bad happen with an LiPoly pack not used in RC planes?
 
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