LL Electronics - Rocket Recovery Transmitters

Hello! LL Electronics has been manufacturing Radio Tracking systems for over 35 years and is one of the longest standing companies in the industry. We manufacture many different types of transmitters and receivers.

Our transmitters were originally designed for use on Falcons and therefore have to be very small and lightweight, and additionally very shock resistant in leg mount applications. After being contacted by rocket enthusiasts we realized that this is a great application for these systems.

Our receivers will also work with transmitters that people already own from other manufacturers.. yet our receivers are designed especially for this purpose and can be 100 times more sensitive than scanner type receivers commonly used.

You can view our website at www.radiotracking.com

Louis
LL Electronics
Louis(@)radiotracking(.)com
www.radiotracking.com

LL Electronics said:

Hello! LL Electronics has been manufacturing Radio Tracking systems for over 35 years and is one of the longest standing companies in the industry. We manufacture many different types of transmitters and receivers. ...You can view our website at www.radiotracking.com

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Interesting! What frequency band do your transmitters operate on, and can you tell me where in the FCC regs it shows I can purchase and operate your product in the US without a license, or do I need a license?

Here is an FCC frequency allocation chart https://www.ntia.doc.gov/osmhome/allochrt.PDF This is categorized as "Radio Location"

Our transmitters typically run in the 216-220MHz range but we manufacture for 151, 155, 172 and 432MHz ranges which are legal in Europe (432MHz is also legal in the US). Our transmitters also have transmission power within legal limits. There is no licensing required to purchase or operate our equipment. None of our customers over a 35 plus year period have ever had issues with authorities over their equipment

LL Electronics said:

Here is an FCC frequency allocation chart https://www.ntia.doc.gov/osmhome/allochrt.PDF This is categorized as "Radio Location"

Our transmitters typically run in the 216-220MHz range but we manufacture for 151, 155, 172 and 432MHz ranges which are legal in Europe (432MHz is also legal in the US). Our transmitters also have transmission power within legal limits. There is no licensing required to purchase or operate our equipment. None of our customers over a 35 plus year period have ever had issues with authorities over their equipment

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So, they're sold and operated as Part 15 devices? Not trying to bust your chops, here, but I've always wondered how Walston and the other non-licensed folks are operating within the rules and the allocation chart you linked to doesn't help too much in that regard.

That's correct. The key here is that the transmitters operate very low output power levels, less than 3 mW of short duration non-modulated CW, while the receivers are highly sensitive with minimum discernible signal levels around -150dbm. This is around 100 times more sensitive than an FM radio. These transmitters have little usable range when used with a pocket scanner.
Because of these specs the units may be susceptible to interference and do not cause "harmful" interference as outlined in part 15 guidelines.

We were the first company to venture in to the 216mhz frequency back in 1977. At that time 216.000 to 216.100 was designated by the US Fish and Wildlife service for airborne avian research. For falconry, all birds are owned and regulated by USF&W so we boldly proceeded to use their band for the sport. Peregrines were on the verge of extirpation as a direct result of DDT in pesticides. Falconers had the remaining breeding stock and were instrumental in the Peregrine recovery effort. Our company played a major role in retaining healthy free flying peregines as breeders that produced young to be reintroduced into the wild. Prior to using 216 we made units in the 150 mhz land mobile spectrum. Since the receivers are so "sensitive" interference from the public service bands of the time rendered the equipment useless. Hence the sport radio tracking industry followed our lead. By 2000 the 216 to 220 band was flooded with low power tracking devices that were used aside for wildlife, everything from falconry to hound tracking and even model airplanes and rocketry all of which we and other companies had engaged. All the while no reports of "harmful interference"!
The FCC in written statements acknowledged the extensive use of the low power units admitting that such activity usually occurs in remote areas and that the power levels were so minute that the possibility of harmful interference was negligible. The 216 to 217 band was then abandoned by the USF&W and private low power radio tracking was allowed as a primary use and data transmission was allowed as a secondary use. The 218 to 219 band was designated as data transmission primary use and low power public radio tracking as a secondary use. They also commented that they were surprised that no wildlife telemetry companies responded during a public comment period. Needless to say had we known about the comment period we would have had plenty to say, as now we have to deal with the possible interference from data transmission that uses much higher power levels and may once again cause interference in our units!
It is also important to note that the 216 band is just on the upper limit of the analog TV ch 13 band covering 210 to 216. With the switch to spread spectrum DTV last June, any DTV station operating in the old analog ch13 band will wreak havoc on our sensitive receivers and is something to consider when purchasing equipment. To research this check out web site www.yourfreedtv.com. This site provides a table with the current DTV chs and the corresponding old analog bands that they occupy in a given geographic location. To date the areas with CH13 Issues that I am aware of are Sheridon WY, Chatanooga TN and West Palm Beach FL.

Louis
Owner
LL Electronics

We are currently running a sale! The ad can be found here: https://radiotracking.com/images/advertisement.jpg
Have a great day!


Louis
LL Electronics
Louis(@)radiotracking(.)com
www.radiotracking.com

I have always felt it would be great to have a tracker with a transmitter specially designed for rockets

you mean, like this?

https://www.bigredbee.com

bigredbee said:

you mean, like this?

https://www.bigredbee.com

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Ummm...don't you need a receiver in order to, um, use the transmitter?

Not sure I understand -- there are plenty of receivers available.

deandome said:

Originally Posted by bigredbee View Post
you mean, like this?

https://www.bigredbee.com

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Ummm...don't you need a receiver in order to, um, use the transmitter?

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All tracking systems have to have a receiver of some sort, the Bee and the LLE system included. So, what's your point?

I know there are receivers to be had, but I don't see ANY receivers of any kind...GPS or RF...on the Beeline site. No metal box...no discussion of a YAGI antenna...nothing that looks like a receiver.

Maybe "GPS" is referring to something else than a Global Pos. System beacon? I don't think so.

I'm guessing Beeline are xmitter specialists, but it's odd that they would only provide one half of the package needed for tracking...why not at least offer some other mfg's receivers if you don't want to make/sell your own?

bigredbee said:

Not sure I understand -- there are plenty of receivers available.

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These radios transmit on the "industry standard" 70cm or 2 meter amateur radio bands, and use commercially available FM radios to receive and decode the transmitters. Brand new 70 cm transceivers start at less than $150, and give you the option of transmitting voice as well as receiving the beacons.

Solutions to decode the GPS packets start at about the same price, but require a laptop. Completely integrated handheld solutions are available for about 2x the price.

You're right, I should have a section on what is needed as far as receivers go, but it can only be an overview as there are literally hundreds of solutions.

There is a link to the yagi on my web-site , repeated here: https://www.nr6ca.org/70cmyagi.html

deandome said:

I'm guessing Beeline are xmitter specialists, but it's odd that they would only provide one half of the package needed for tracking...why not at least offer some other mfg's receivers if you don't want to make/sell your own?

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Unless he wants to start stocking handheld ham radios, that can't happen. And then, because of volume, he won't be able to be price-competitive, and hardly anyone will buy from him, making it a huge money loser.

For specialty frequencies, it makes sense for folks to offer both the transmitter and receiver. For ham frequencies, where there are countless handheld radio options from dozens of manufacturers, it's not a viable business model to try to offer them

-Kevin

I have contimplated buying one or a Radio tracker. I just can't see putting the investment (time) into getting a ham. I would buy another frequency if it did not require a ham.

A customer in Mexico recently reported getting just over 30 miles range while testing his equipment in gently rolling hills! He has an LF-4 and is using an MNS 4000. This could be an extreme affected by a possible lack of ambient RF noise in the area. Still, I thought I would pass this along as I have been asked many times what maximum possible ranges are and this would be a good example. Typically in a populace area with quite a bit of local RF you could still expect to get 2-3 miles with obstructions in the form of buildings.

Happy Flying!

Louis Luksander
L.L. Electronics
louis(@)radiotracking(.)com
www.radiotracking.com

I used one of your transmitters last weekend in a small carbon rocket 24mm Blackhawk with the Rockethunter/ Consumerspecialties reciever I have [for many years.

Outstanding results for such a small package. For those wondering it was on the 219. frequency.

Very nice SMALL package for tracking rockets. The twist tight/on loosen/off cap was a real pleasure to use. I recommend it highly. Borrowed it from another flier, had heard about these and wondered how well they would work with the receiver I had. They work great.
How about running a special for us rocket guys!!!LOL

The unit was taped to the shock cord and the antenna was stuck up into the NC. Good signal , even on the pad. The NC is not carbon thus transparent. As are all Mongoose and BlackHawk kits.

The other larger object taped to the cord is a beta test tiny altimeter for those wondering

Hello Rocketry Forum! It's been a while since I have posted but I thought this would be a great time to get back to the forum. Interest has really spiked lately for our products in rocketry applications and we have had a lot of great customer feedback in this area. We have recently revamped our entire line of transmitters as well as our website.

Our transmitters are now better than ever for use in rocketry. New crystal-less circuitry is rated for up to 50,000 g's of vibration and impact resistance. This new circuitry also allows for less weight and smaller sizes. Our transmitters range in weights from 1.8 grams to about 8 grams. As usual, no HAM license required!

You can order online from your PC, tablet or smart phone at www.radiotracking.com

We also have a facebook page that shows some additional media of our units www.facebook.com/LLElectronics Please come give us a like and share

Thanks Jim! I know this is quite a bit later, but I'm trying to get back into various forums again. Maybe now is a great time to run a special for you rocket guys! I'll have to talk to the boss (my dad!)

LL Electronics said:

Thanks Jim! I know this is quite a bit later, but I'm trying to get back into various forums again. Maybe now is a great time to run a special for you rocket guys! I'll have to talk to the boss (my dad!)

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Hello Louis

I have one of the XLF 6v transmitters - purchased a few years ago. A really wonderful product. it's compact, light weight, powerful, and durable.

At the LDRS launch last July I decided (at the last minute) to drop your transmitter into the payload bay of one of my rockets. I was expecting about 2500' altitude. Not all that high for a high power rocket, but I put the transmitter in there... just-in-case.

The main parachute opened at apogee, and the rocket caught a "thermal". I watch it for several minutes as it slowly drifted down... and dropped out of sight beyond the tree line some 3500 feet away.

I had a pretty good line-of sight landmark where the rocket was last seen, but given the terrain (Bong State recreation area) really no way I could just walk 3/4 of a mile to retrieve the rocket.

That's when I remembered the transmitter in the payload bay.

Our club (Woosh #558) has a couple of receiver's available to loan to club members.

I pick up a receiver from the club president, turned it on and set the frequency...
Beep-beep-beep - a perfect strong signal!!!

We hopped in the mini-van, and it took just a few minutes to drive right up to the rocket following the signal from the transmitter.

>>>> I would be VERY interested in another XLF 6v especially if you are able to offer "special" pricing. <<<<

Thanks again for producing a great product!

I agree a special would be a great thing.

scsager said:

Hello Louis

I have one of the XLF 6v transmitters - purchased a few years ago. A really wonderful product. it's compact, light weight, powerful, and durable.

At the LDRS launch last July I decided (at the last minute) to drop your transmitter into the payload bay of one of my rockets. I was expecting about 2500' altitude. Not all that high for a high power rocket, but I put the transmitter in there... just-in-case.

The main parachute opened at apogee, and the rocket caught a "thermal". I watch it for several minutes as it slowly drifted down... and dropped out of sight beyond the tree line some 3500 feet away.

I had a pretty good line-of sight landmark where the rocket was last seen, but given the terrain (Bong State recreation area) really no way I could just walk 3/4 of a mile to retrieve the rocket.

That's when I remembered the transmitter in the payload bay.

Our club (Woosh #558) has a couple of receiver's available to loan to club members.

I pick up a receiver from the club president, turned it on and set the frequency...
Beep-beep-beep - a perfect strong signal!!!

We hopped in the mini-van, and it took just a few minutes to drive right up to the rocket following the signal from the transmitter.

>>>> I would be VERY interested in another XLF 6v especially if you are able to offer "special" pricing. <<<<

Thanks again for producing a great product!

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Excellent! We love hearing these kind of stories. The whole reason we make this stuff is so that people can find what they are looking for, to be able to get a precise direction and walk right up to it.

Keep an eye on this thread, we may post up a special just for this community soon!

Thank you!
-Louis

I to would have an interest in the XLF 6V.

Guys,

You can not go wrong with this product. It will fit in a very small rocket. Consider it rocket insurance. For the price, it is a cheap price to get a rocket back.

If you fly in South Carolina, the trees can be thick. I have only seen one lock with a tracker on board. I have lost 3 without one.

As an aside, I test flew an old OOP Estes Super Nova Payloader (https://www.rocketreviews.com/super-nova-payloader---estes-2155-1998-2000.html) on an E30-7 with this $15.00 XFM-1 https://www.jbgizmo.com/page30.htm

The rocket has room for the dipole wire antenna in the payload bay with one limb going up through the nosecone and the other limb trailing out the transition. Very easy to do with a plastic rocket. Certainly not a high powered tracker and I found at a distance, I didn't need the electronic attenuator I had mounted on my homemade 3 element Yagi when at distance. Good directivity at altitude.

I found I had a 1500' radius range on the ground and was able to maintain the directivity by activating the attenuator. https://www.west.net/~marvin/k0ov.htm as the receiver got swamped as I proceeded closer to the downed rocket. If it had landed in standing corn, this cheap arrangement would have been helpful. I am no way in heck trying to detract from LL Electronics. For cheap experimentation (cheap meaning one doesn't break the bank if there is a recovery failure or the item is lost) it's fun to work with, with the appropriate rocket. Not too many rockets could accomodate the dipole antenna the XFM-1 needs for best range. The LL trackers certainly have the size and "robustness" ticket.

One word of caution for RDF tracking. A fair number of the Chinese import radios do not have a "true" signal strength meter. It's either full "on" with any signal or full "off". Won't be helpful for RDF tracking at all in that case. Kurt

Hi Louis,

One suggestion for an upgrade or improvement would be to offer the XLF-6V with a stainless steel canister and cap. Mine needs to be replaced due to a forward end motor burn through 2 years ago. No, I haven't done much flying since Somehow, when the rocket separated on assent and everything started tumbling everywhere and coming apart at speed, the screw on cap took a violent whack which bent the cap and threads so badly that it is offset from center about .040" to one side now. It striped the threads when I removed the cap and the batteries were lodged inside.


The aluminum is nice and light for birding, but for most high altitude rockets, the extra 40-50g of weight for steel (and the added price tag) would be well worth the cost of an indestructible, ballistic impact proof transmitter. Even better if it could be made to where the antenna screws on from the inside, and the whole transmitter assembly, batteries and all are all slid in one end of the steel canister where only the antenna whip sticks out the end and the cap screws on the other end. This way the antenna can't be broken off at the thread mount. I can't tell you the number of times I have trashed the Rocket Hunter transmitters plastic case, or broken parts off their boards due to the very low protection. Compared to that, the current XLF-6V is by far much, much better.

Thanks for all the feedback guys. We are very interested in providing a line of trackers especially for the rocket crowd, so I do appreciate it!

ksaves2 said:

One word of caution for RDF tracking. A fair number of the Chinese import radios do not have a "true" signal strength meter. It's either full "on" with any signal or full "off". Won't be helpful for RDF tracking at all in that case. Kurt

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This is an excellent point! Many do not realize this, resulting in a lot of frustration when they are unable to determine a direction when closer to the transmitter. There are really only a handful of receivers that truly have a signal strength meter, our receivers basically "force you" to use the meter as it will always provide you with the most sensitivity when finding a direction. Some of the receivers do have true signal meters but then they have done themselves a disservice by over dampening the meter. Even the units with digital meters lose some performance as the responsiveness lags.

Maybe if anyone has any pics of their rockets with our transmitters on board they wouldn't mind us placing on our website or facebook pages? We will credit your name as well.

Thanks again!
-Louis Luksander (JR)
LL Electronics
www.radiotracking.com

I wills end you some pics after the first weekend in April.

I said there might be a special for the rocketry community and here it is! This deal will be good through the end of April.

Rockets15 Good for $15 off orders $150+

Rockets25 Good for $25 off orders $200+

Just use the promo code at our online store at www.radiotracking.com

If you call in or email an order to use then just mention the code you want to use!

Tell your friends, will also periodically be posting deals up on facebook as well. www.facebook.com/LLElectronics

Heres to the coming nice weather and many great launches!

Is there a receiver that can handle both 216 and 223 bands? I've looked around and haven't seen anything that would ( that's under $1000)


JD